Don Granato the Worm Tongue and the Culture of Losing

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, zow2 said:

Donny has to get these guys pushing the action like they did last season.  Now we have a real goalie, don't be scared to keep trying to score goals.  They packed it in and got too defensive last night.  

I thought it was agreed that the team would need to play a tighter defensive game than last year.

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I want a full shift from "learning experience" to "not good enough". It's not there in his speech. 

Most of all though, what I want Granato to do isn't about words, it's about a defensive system where the forwards actually do something. Every year we are on about the defensemen and to some extent the goalies and the real biggest issue consistent all these years is the forwards and their mentality. We  just don't "play the right way" as they like to say on other teams and until we change that we won't win. I just don't think Granato can get it done at this point. 

This is a weird flex after last night's game.

 

[PerreaultForever]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This is a weird flex after last night's game.

 

I don't think so. I don't want to have a long argument about last night's game, we obviously saw it differently, so we shall see over the home stand here if we can or will play better defense or not. There are games we should, and have to, win here. 

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Speaking for myself, I never said it was the only way.

A lot of the famous yellers and screamers of the past did it occasionally, but it was not their normal demeanor and they still had excellent coaching and leadership skills.   They knew how to win respect first, then they could blow up and quite often make a difference.  
 

Vince Lombardi was mentioned.  Never heard any former Packer talk bad about him. He was not a one trick pony as a motivator.  

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't think so. I don't want to have a long argument about last night's game, we obviously saw it differently, so we shall see over the home stand here if we can or will play better defense or not. There are games we should, and have to, win here. 

If there ever is a time to become a good home team it’s now.  Buffalo was once a hard place to get points.   We have to get that back.  

[PerreaultForever]

9 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

If there ever is a time to become a good home team it’s now.  Buffalo was once a hard place to get points.   We have to get that back.  

Especially since we are likely still mostly under the radar. Teams on road trips are still going to look at us and think the easy game or at least easier game on a trip to Toronto next or New York or wherever. We have to be harder to play against at home and we have to take every single home game as must win. 

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not going to suggest we need Torts style, but Philly did come out strong for their home opener despite their lack of talent. It was a high energy high effort game and the fans went home happy. Philly will lose this year because they lack talent but it does seem they've gotten rid of most of their garbage and the effort level is high end. So when people say the "old school" no longer works that just might not be true. Either that or the myth of Torts and the reality are two different things.

I also think Granato is too reserved and too nice. There should be more accountability and consequence at this stage. It's hard to bench people with a thin roster and nothing but kids to plug in but there has to be consequences and the bar has to be raised for the team and it's culture to progress. 

Once’s again, I would say letting Peca go was a huge mistake. Peca had that ethic and  sort of gravitas. They could have made him bad cop to Granato's good cop (in a way) and helped raise the bar that way. Peca would have been a great role model.

Peca would be himself.  He would not be the bad cop, he would be him.  He was himself in Rochester too.  

They actually didn’t let him go, they just didn’t match the offer he got from the Rangers as an NHL assistant.   He going to learn a lot from Laviolette too.  

I think he will be Sabres head coach someday.  
 

[Cascade Youth]

OTOH I was listening to a speech about effective leadership last night and the number one tenet was “be authentic.”  You have to own who you are and who you aren’t to be an effective leader.  I agree with this.  If Donny isn’t the hardass type he can’t pretend to be.  He’ll lose credibility with his players.  Has to stay true to himself first and foremost.

[Taro T]

8 hours ago, zow2 said:

Donny has to get these guys pushing the action like they did last season.  Now we have a real goalie, don't be scared to keep trying to score goals.  They packed it in and got too defensive last night.  

Agree with that in large part, but really believe losing Samuelsson caused a bit of a "crisis of confidence" among them all and that was a big part of them deciding to go full on Alamo mode essentially the entire 3rd period.

If the next time they're protecting a slim lead heading into the 3rd they just into a total shell, well then we have an issue.  Not meaning to excuse the Alamo mode because really don't want to do that and also will fully acknowledge it allowed the Bolts to steal a point and keep the Sabres from gaining a better tiebreaker outcome than they ended up with.  But, missing their best pure defensive D-man, they did manage to hold the Bolts to about 3 quality chances that whole period.  Of course, it only took that 3rd chance to get TB to OT.

[bg17]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Agree with that in large part, but really believe losing Samuelsson caused a bit of a "crisis of confidence" among them all and that was a big part of them deciding to go full on Alamo mode essentially the entire 3rd period.

If the next time they're protecting a slim lead heading into the 3rd they just into a total shell, well then we have an issue.  Not meaning to excuse the Alamo mode because really don't want to do that and also will fully acknowledge it allowed the Bolts to steal a point and keep the Sabres from gaining a better tiebreaker outcome than they ended up with.  But, missing their best pure defensive D-man, they did manage to hold the Bolts to about 3 quality chances that whole period.  Of course, it only took that 3rd chance to get TB to OT.

How does an 11-9 TB shots on goal margin in the 3rd equate to “full on Alamo mode”?

[Taro T]

Just now, bg17 said:

How does an 11-9 TB shots on goal margin in the 3rd equate to “full on Alamo mode”?

 

6 minutes ago, bg17 said:

How does an 11-9 TB shots on goal margin in the 3rd equate to “full on Alamo mode”?

Did you actually WATCH the game?

The Sabres were dumping the puck out of the zone the entire period with no concern for actually skating it out of the zone nor making passes.  At least 3 of those shots the Sabres got came immediately off the approximately 4 faceoffs the entire period that were in the Bolts end.

[bg17]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

 

Did you actually WATCH the game?

The Sabres were dumping the puck out of the zone the entire period with no concern for actually skating it out of the zone nor making passes.  At least 3 of those shots the Sabres got came immediately off the approximately 4 faceoffs the entire period that were in the Bolts end.

I was there. I don’t see 9 SOG in one period as full on Alamo mode. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, bg17 said:

I was there. I don’t see 9 SOG in one period as full on Alamo mode. 

You are mistaken.  That team was perfectly happy to simply get the puck out of the zone.  IF they could get it back after clearing the zone, they were not going hard to score.  A significant portion of those shots came off the PP and off faceoffs in TB's end from missed pass icings.

The Sabres were perfectly fine with winning 2-1 after Samuelsson got injured.

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Especially since we are likely still mostly under the radar. Teams on road trips are still going to look at us and think the easy game or at least easier game on a trip to Toronto next or New York or wherever. We have to be harder to play against at home and we have to take every single home game as must win. 

Back up goalie tomorrow. Should still get a fair bit of those 

[Porous Five Hole]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Back up goalie tomorrow. Should still get a fair bit of those 

Same for us too (probably) 😬

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Peca would be himself.  He would not be the bad cop, he would be him.  He was himself in Rochester too.  

They actually didn’t let him go, they just didn’t match the offer he got from the Rangers as an NHL assistant.   He going to learn a lot from Laviolette too.  

I think he will be Sabres head coach someday.  
 

I didn't mean let him go as in fired, just as in what happened. They didn't value him enough to keep him. Elevate him. The bad cop metaphor was probably not a great one but I was just trying to illustrate a contrast with Granato. 

Peca always had this driven steely eyed determination and I think he still does. His standard is very high and I think having that guy with Granato would have made us better and better sooner. I think it was a huge mistake. 

Sabres head coach one day? Maybe, but if we let him go now why would you think that would be a consideration later? He could end up coaching anywhere now. 

[Weave]

I honestly don’t het the consternation over losing Peca.  He has shown very little indication of what he might be as a head coach.  We might’ve lost a gem, but we might’ve lost another mediocre coach.  There is no way any of us can make a prediction of what he might become.

It is “concept of” stuff.

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

I honestly don’t het the consternation over losing Peca.  He has shown very little indication of what he might be as a head coach.  We might’ve lost a gem, but we might’ve lost another mediocre coach.  There is no way any of us can make a prediction of what he might become.

It is “concept of” stuff.

More specifically it’s “I feel connected to him in a way I don’t with the current team” stuff.

[Quint]

On 10/17/2023 at 12:15 PM, Cascade Youth said:

Both the Sabres and the Bills lean a bit too much towards the development / college program vibe and too far away from "championship or bust."  That doesn't mean we need head coaches to call players out publicly and smash chairs in the locker room, but there are not enough signs of real accountability metrics in either organization for my liking.  That's not to say I don't love a lot of what Adams (and Beane) has done - but I just don't ever get the sense that a mandate for success is implemented by the Pegulas.  Scoring a B or B plus grade, and selling tickets, seems to be good enough for them (but not for me).

Don't worry, they'll figure out a proper balance -- by the year 2200.

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, Weave said:

I honestly don’t het the consternation over losing Peca.  He has shown very little indication of what he might be as a head coach.  We might’ve lost a gem, but we might’ve lost another mediocre coach.  There is no way any of us can make a prediction of what he might become.

It is “concept of” stuff.

He actually has showed excellent performance and potential at every assignment (Jr Sabres, Caps development coach, Rochester assistant), which is why Laviolette wanted him - he liked his work with the Caps.   Leaving the Sabres and getting a broader exposure can only help him.  

True, we don't know how he will translate as a NHL coach, if he ever gets a shot.  

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

More specifically it’s “I feel connected to him in a way I don’t with the current team” stuff.

Not for me, but maybe for others.  

[...]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I didn't mean let him go as in fired, just as in what happened. They didn't value him enough to keep him. Elevate him. The bad cop metaphor was probably not a great one but I was just trying to illustrate a contrast with Granato. 

Peca always had this driven steely eyed determination and I think he still does. His standard is very high and I think having that guy with Granato would have made us better and better sooner. I think it was a huge mistake. 

Sabres head coach one day? Maybe, but if we let him go now why would you think that would be a consideration later? He could end up coaching anywhere now. 

I agree with every word in this post. I think the idea that Peca would come back to coach the Sabres after 'leaving home to walk in the darkness elsewhere" is peak reverie.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, ... said:

I agree with every word in this post. I think the idea that Peca would come back to coach the Sabres after 'leaving home to walk in the darkness elsewhere" is peak reverie.

How can you say that after we hired Phil Housley?   

He has lived in Buffalo a long time and his wife is from Buffalo.   He loves the area and it is close to his family on Ontario.  It could happen and is not a fancy daydream.   But he has to be good enough to get the shot.  Leaving now and working for a Cup winning coach  is a good way to get that opportunity later.  

[LTS]

21 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I want a full shift from "learning experience" to "not good enough". It's not there in his speech. 

Most of all though, what I want Granato to do isn't about words, it's about a defensive system where the forwards actually do something. Every year we are on about the defensemen and to some extent the goalies and the real biggest issue consistent all these years is the forwards and their mentality. We  just don't "play the right way" as they like to say on other teams and until we change that we won't win. I just don't think Granato can get it done at this point. 

Love this response.. thank you.

I think Granato will get there.. and I think he'll break "not good enough" at some point but he's pretty judicious with that kind of criticism.  You and I share the defensive zone coverage concerns and if he does not address it that will be a big mark against him.  I still think he can get it done.  Probably about the only difference between our thinking (and I am okay with his learning talk, for now).

[...]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

How can you say that after we hired Phil Housley?   

He has lived in Buffalo a long time and his wife is from Buffalo.   He loves the area and it is close to his family on Ontario.  It could happen and is not a fancy daydream.   But he has to be good enough to get the shot.  Leaving now and working for a Cup winning coach  is a good way to get that opportunity later.  

He was traded away by the Sabres as a player. They wouldn't promote him after his success with the Buffalo Junior Sabres. He went out and proved he could work at the pro level and subsequently took another gig "nearby" with the Amerks clearly trying to advance his coaching career. The Sabres wouldn't promote him again so he walked.

Why would he choose to work for the Sabres after giving them so many chances?

Did we not all wish the Sabres would have upgraded their assistant coaches and add someone who could help with the PP and overall defensive play? This is the same team that is starting a young, unproven goalie with unproven goalies as backups, not to mention a roster full of unproven players - so the excuse that Peca needs to prove himself first is a bit hypocritical.

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, ... said:

He was traded away by the Sabres as a player. They wouldn't promote him after his success with the Buffalo Junior Sabres. He went out and proved he could work at the pro level and subsequently took another gig "nearby" with the Amerks clearly trying to advance his coaching career. The Sabres wouldn't promote him again so he walked.

Why would he choose to work for the Sabres after giving them so many chances?

Did we not all wish the Sabres would have upgraded their assistant coaches and add someone who could help with the PP and overall defensive play? This is the same team that is starting a young, unproven goalie with unproven goalies as backups, not to mention a roster full of unproven players - so the excuse that Peca needs to prove himself first is a bit hypocritical.

IF Peca is available when the Sabres and Granato (or a successor of his) part ways and the Sabres want to offer him that job, there is a very good chance that he would accept it.  There are (currently) only 32 of those jobs available anywhere and only a fraction of them are open at any one time.  Expect he'd accept an offer from Filly, Dallas, or the Otters too even though all have been rivals of teams he was on as well.  Heck, he'd take the Vancouver job if offered.  And they were the 1st to send him packing.  The only way he doesn't accept it is if he gets a better offer at that same time.  Really can't see him pulling a Ted Nolan and turning down an offer from an NHL team that wants to hire him for that role.