Sabres' lines 10/3/2023

[GASabresIUFAN]

37 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

We will be surprising no one.  Teams will do everything they can to shut down Thompson and putting a rookie on his line might not be the best thing, especially when that line, even with Tuch on it, still needed a better 200 foot game.  

In modern hockey a 200 foot game is important but speed and puck possession are more important.  Adding Benson to Thompson and Skinner is about driving puck possession.  Benson is a wizard with the puck on his stick.  

The 200 foot game tends to evolve as the player matures.  We saw the light bulb go on for Mitts last year.  I expect TNT to be more attuned to that aspect of the game this season.  Cozens as well, but it takes time for the young guys to get to that point because they have thrived all their lives on offense alone.

I think the Sabres finally understand this which is why they added Clifton and Johnson.  This gives the Sabres a much more balanced D group with guys who play physical, play defense and block shots.

I think the Sabres philosophy about defense is to use puck possession to not only drive offense but to prevent opponent’s offense.  When that fails, let the physical d group and Levi prevent goals against.  

The analogy I’d draw would be the Gretzky/Messier Oilers teams.  They came at you wave after wave and when things didn’t work they had Grant Fuhr covering up those mistakes.  Hopefully Levi becomes our Grant Fuhr.  I’d also point to the 05/06 Sabres that came at you with 4 lines the could score.

I’ll admit it’s not perfect, but given the talent we have this philosophy makes sense.

I’m also not really to worried about Benson making the team and even playing on the first line.  We added rookies JJP and Quinn last year and they helped make the team better.  I don’t see why Benson won’t as well despite his age and size.  

While I agree teams may try to key on TnT’s line, but Sabres forward depth should punish teams that try it.  The Cozens line has a 28 goal scorer (VO), a 30+ goal scorer (DC) and a developing talent in JJP who put 28 goals in the A at 19.  Mitts’ line also has a 30+ guy in Tuch, a 40+ assist guy who can add 20 in Mitts and Greenway, who can chip in as well (and is a surprisingly good passer). 

Edited October 3, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[matter2003]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Here are Sabres lines as Rochester also opens camp today. 

Skinner-Thompson-Benson = I like it and think this could work

Peterka-Cozens-Olofsson = I think within a week they'll realize that you can't saddle Olofsson this high up. 

Greenway-Mittelstadt-Tuch = This has a lot of potential but only if Mitts can replicate last years abilities.

Girgensons-Krebs-Okposo = Pretty much what we expected

Rousek-Jost-Biro = The island of misfit toys or first callups/subs 

Murray-Kulich-Rosén = Eastbound and down... shortly

Dahlin-Clifton = Yup

Power-Jokiharju = idk if I trust joker but donny does

Samuelsson-E. Johnson = solid

R. Johnson-Bryson = sorry little johnson

Stillman-Clague = yupers

If I could swap in Savoie for Olofsson right now, I actually kinda like that forward lineup. Savoie has the speed to keep up with Cozens. 

Skinner, Thompson and "The Butler" Benson... 😂

[pi2000]

I'm legit surprised Benson is still up there with Skinner and Thompson.   

How does Tuch feel about this playing down on the 3rd line with Greenway?   

R. Johnson deserves the 7th D spot, but he needs to be playing big minutes at this point in his career, so he should start his first pro season in Roch.

[Doohicksie]

17 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

How does Tuch feel about this playing down on the 3rd line with Greenway?

Two answers:

1. He's a team-first guy and will play wherever they ask him to.
2. Granato has a master plan (don't worry, Benson goes back after 9 games) and has sat Alex down and explained it to him.

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, msw2112 said:

  As such, I see a spot for VO on this team.  VO also knows that this is his last opportunity with this team, so maybe he has it within him to improve defensively.  I do think his offensive play was better last year - he showed some offensive game beyond 1 timers on the right circle on the PP - but he needs to round out his entire game more.  Should be an interesting year.

I have seen nothing in the preseason to make me think VO can do this. I saw nothing last year when it was ABUNDUNATLY obvious he needed to play better to make me think he can do this. I have seen nothing that makes me think VO has it in him to improve his game to a level above liability and he has had multiple chances to do that. 

[steveoath]

Not liking Olofsson on 2nd line. 

[Zamboni]

And I don’t take any line combos in preseason games as written in sand let alone in stone. Just like every year. It’s just a bunch of “let’s see what this looks like” screwing around until the regular season.

[K-9]

21 minutes ago, steveoath said:

Not liking Olofsson on 2nd line. 

Not liking Olofsson on any line.

[matter2003]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

In modern hockey a 200 foot game is important but speed and puck possession are more important.  Adding Benson to Thompson and Skinner is about driving puck possession.  Benson is a wizard with the puck on his stick.  

The 200 foot game tends to evolve as the player matures.  We saw the light bulb go on for Mitts last year.  I expect TNT to be more attuned to that aspect of the game this season.  Cozens as well, but it takes time for the young guys to get to that point because they have thrived all their lives on offense alone.

I think the Sabres finally understand this which is why they added Clifton and Johnson.  This gives the Sabres a much more balanced D group with guys who play physical, play defense and block shots.

I think the Sabres philosophy about defense is to use puck possession to not only drive offense but to prevent opponent’s offense.  When that fails, let the physical d group and Levi prevent goals against.  

The analogy I’d draw would be the Gretzky/Messier Oilers teams.  They came at you wave after wave and when things didn’t work they had Grant Fuhr covering up those mistakes.  Hopefully Levi becomes our Grant Fuhr.  I’d also point to the 05/06 Sabres that came at you with 4 lines the could score.

I’ll admit it’s not perfect, but given the talent we have this philosophy makes sense.

I’m also not really to worried about Benson making the team and even playing on the first line.  We added rookies JJP and Quinn last year and they helped make the team better.  I don’t see why Benson won’t as well despite his age and size.  

While I agree teams may try to key on TnT’s line, but Sabres forward depth should punish teams that try it.  The Cozens line has a 28 goal scorer (VO), a 30+ goal scorer (DC) and a developing talent in JJP who put 28 goals in the A at 19.  Mitts’ line also has a 30+ guy in Tuch, a 40+ assist guy who can add 20 in Mitts and Greenway, who can chip in as well (and is a surprisingly good passer). 

Benson also seems to instinctively know in a way that can't be taught how to influence a defender WITHOUT the puck on his stick which is one of the rarest qualities of all. Some of the highlight clips I watched prior to the draft showing things he did in games in this regard were almost magical.

Edited October 3, 2023 by matter2003

[nfreeman]

If Cozen's and Mitt's lines really are:

JJP-Cozens-VO

Greenway-Mitts-Tuch

...then Cozens' line is probably going to play less than Mitts' line, unless JJP and Cozens have both taken major steps in their defensive games.

This seems like an odd result, although DG has clearly and frequently stated that he really likes Mitts.

[LGR4GM]

9 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Benson also seems to instinctively know in a way that can't be taught how to influence a defender WITHOUT the puck on his stick which is one of the rarest qualities of all. Some of the highlight clips I watched prior to the draft showing things he did in games in this regard were almost magical.

He has elite manipulation skills

[Brawndo]

 

Clifton and Elder Johnson debut 

[Doohicksie]

36 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Benson also seems to instinctively know in a way that can't be taught how to influence a defender WITHOUT the puck on his stick which is one of the rarest qualities of all. Some of the highlight clips I watched prior to the draft showing things he did in games in this regard were almost magical.

His winning goal the other night was a decent example of that- He passed to the goal mouth but then knew that the defense would be goal-facing and snuck behind the D-man to the slot where he buried the rebound.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

In modern hockey a 200 foot game is important but speed and puck possession are more important.  Adding Benson to Thompson and Skinner is about driving puck possession.  Benson is a wizard with the puck on his stick.  

The 200 foot game tends to evolve as the player matures.  We saw the light bulb go on for Mitts last year.  I expect TNT to be more attuned to that aspect of the game this season.  Cozens as well, but it takes time for the young guys to get to that point because they have thrived all their lives on offense alone.

I think the Sabres finally understand this which is why they added Clifton and Johnson.  This gives the Sabres a much more balanced D group with guys who play physical, play defense and block shots.

I think the Sabres philosophy about defense is to use puck possession to not only drive offense but to prevent opponent’s offense.  When that fails, let the physical d group and Levi prevent goals against.  

The analogy I’d draw would be the Gretzky/Messier Oilers teams.  They came at you wave after wave and when things didn’t work they had Grant Fuhr covering up those mistakes.  Hopefully Levi becomes our Grant Fuhr.  I’d also point to the 05/06 Sabres that came at you with 4 lines the could score.

I’ll admit it’s not perfect, but given the talent we have this philosophy makes sense.

I’m also not really to worried about Benson making the team and even playing on the first line.  We added rookies JJP and Quinn last year and they helped make the team better.  I don’t see why Benson won’t as well despite his age and size.  

While I agree teams may try to key on TnT’s line, but Sabres forward depth should punish teams that try it.  The Cozens line has a 28 goal scorer (VO), a 30+ goal scorer (DC) and a developing talent in JJP who put 28 goals in the A at 19.  Mitts’ line also has a 30+ guy in Tuch, a 40+ assist guy who can add 20 in Mitts and Greenway, who can chip in as well (and is a surprisingly good passer). 

I just think back to last year and seeing how teams took advantage of our rookies, leading DG to limit the minutes of Peterka and Quinn about halfway through a game.   Benson may be better all around than these guys but he is 18, still kind of small, and he has no pro hockey experience.   If he has to protect Bensons minutes then we disrupt two lines, including Line 1.  

Lets see how it plays out.  

In general, I am not a fan of absorbing 3 or more rookies (such as Levi, Benson and maybe Savoie or some of the others) and then expecting to make the playoffs.  Levi is a given, he is the #1.  Adding Benson to the top 9 - ok, looks like he is earning his way.  Adding Benson to the top 3 this year - I need to see this work and then I will happily shut up about it.  

This is not supposed to be another development year.  

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, steveoath said:

Not liking Olofsson on 2nd line. 

As much as I dislike getting fixated into line hierarchies, if we’re going to label lines the Mitts line is pretty clearly the second line.

The difference between Cozens and Mitts mat not be as wide as this board seems to think, and Greenway and Tuch are light years better than VO and Peterka, especially in the defensive end.

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

And I don’t take any line combos in preseason games as written in sand let alone in stone. Just like every year. It’s just a bunch of “let’s see what this looks like” screwing around until the regular season.

I put a fair amount of faith into the preseason practice combos, that’s where players are getting the reps and learning how to connect.

That said, people might be surprised at how little time “fixed” combos like Tage/Tuch/Skinner and Peterka/Cozens/Quinn actually spent together over the course of a season between penalties, injuries and special teams, never mind actual line juggling.

23 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

 

Clifton and Elder Johnson debut 

Are we thinking Benson s sitting out this one, just making the trip as the spare?

The others have all been linemates in practice.

Same for Power?

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I just think back to last year and seeing how teams took advantage of our rookies, leading DG to limit the minutes of Peterka and Quinn about halfway through a game.   Benson may be better all around than these guys but he is 18, still kind of small, and he has no pro hockey experience.   If he has to protect Bensons minutes then we disrupt two lines, including Line 1.  

Lets see how it plays out.  

In general, I am not a fan of absorbing 3 or more rookies (such as Levi, Benson and maybe Savoie or some of the others) and then expecting to make the playoffs.  Levi is a given, he is the #1.  Adding Benson to the top 9 - ok, looks like he is earning his way.  Adding Benson to the top 3 this year - I need to see this work and then I will happily shut up about it.  

This is not supposed to be another development year.  

Again, being the 1RW on the opening roster does not mean he’ll be there tomorrow, or even in the 2nd period.

Lines are pretty fluid things.

Also, the Sabres have 13 veteran forwards (including Quinn) and 9 veteran defencemen (including Clague).

They will have Levi and one other rookie on the opening night roster, which is easily absorbed by any team, even cup contenders.

 

[French Collection]

43 minutes ago, dudacek said:

As much as I dislike getting fixated into line hierarchies, if we’re going to label lines the Mitts line is pretty clearly the second line.

The difference between Cozens and Mitts mat not be as wide as this board seems to think, and Greenway and Tuch are light years better than VO and Peterka, especially in the defensive end.

You are right about them not being far apart. Cozens is a better goal scorer but Mitts is a better passer. Cozens is a better skater but Mitts is becoming a beast along the boards. They were drafted in similar ranges.

Mitts has better wingers and that line can hem in another team with their size and board work. I see Cozens line as a more dangerous rushing unit.

DG might be more strategic this year in deploying his three scoring lines for matchups and allocate ice time to the hot hands. This balance will create internal competition for ice time too.

[French Collection]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

 

Clifton and Elder Johnson debut 

Can they dress 13 F and 7 D?

Maybe in preseason?

[Curt]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

If Cozen's and Mitt's lines really are:

JJP-Cozens-VO

Greenway-Mitts-Tuch

...then Cozens' line is probably going to play less than Mitts' line, unless JJP and Cozens have both taken major steps in their defensive games.

This seems like an odd result, although DG has clearly and frequently stated that he really likes Mitts.

Yeah, it seems odd intuitively but I think that they really do have a very high opinion of Mitts.  Two years ago he was slated to be the 1C before getting hurt to start the season, then he didn’t get healthy until March.  Then last season, he played really well in a variety of positions and he was the one who they gave a chance on the 1st line when there was an opportunity, not Cozens, and it worked pretty well.

[Curt]

10 minutes ago, French Collection said:

You are right about them not being far apart. Cozens is a better goal scorer but Mitts is a better passer. Cozens is a better skater but Mitts is becoming a beast along the boards. They were drafted in similar ranges.

Mitts has better wingers and that line can hem in another team with their size and board work. I see Cozens line as a more dangerous rushing unit.

DG might be more strategic this year in deploying his three scoring lines for matchups and allocate ice time to the hot hands. This balance will create internal competition for ice time too.

I agree.  Just a random thought to add on.  I hope Cozens is able to fill out more over the next few years.  He has sort of a slight/lean frame so it may be tough for him, but if he is 6’3” 195 right now and can get to say 210, he would be a real beast.  He has the mentality to take advantage of it too.

[LGR4GM]

4 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Two answers:

1. He's a team-first guy and will play wherever they ask him to.
2. Granato has a master plan (don't worry, Benson goes back after 9 games) and has sat Alex down and explained it to him.

I'm trying to imagine thinking anyone needs to sit Tuch down and explain any of this. He's also not on the 3rd line and will get at minimum 2nd pp time. 

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I just think back to last year and seeing how teams took advantage of our rookies, leading DG to limit the minutes of Peterka and Quinn about halfway through a game.   Benson may be better all around than these guys but he is 18, still kind of small, and he has no pro hockey experience.   If he has to protect Bensons minutes then we disrupt two lines, including Line 1.  

Lets see how it plays out.  

In general, I am not a fan of absorbing 3 or more rookies (such as Levi, Benson and maybe Savoie or some of the others) and then expecting to make the playoffs.  Levi is a given, he is the #1.  Adding Benson to the top 9 - ok, looks like he is earning his way.  Adding Benson to the top 3 this year - I need to see this work and then I will happily shut up about it.  

This is not supposed to be another development year.  

I can't really think of a time either JJP or Quinn in particular were "taken advantage of"

[LGR4GM]

50 minutes ago, Curt said:

I agree.  Just a random thought to add on.  I hope Cozens is able to fill out more over the next few years.  He has sort of a slight/lean frame so it may be tough for him, but if he is 6’3” 195 right now and can get to say 210, he would be a real beast.  He has the mentality to take advantage of it too.

He's 201lbs according to the above roster. 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I can't really think of a time either JJP or Quinn in particular were "taken advantage of"

Both players demonstrated that they belonged in this league. I thought Quinn showed that he was on the verge of becoming a very good player. I'm not down on JJP because I think coming off his world tournament experience, where he excelled, it was a good experience for hm leading to being a better player this season. However, at the end of the season, JJP's minutes were curtailed, especially at the end of tight games. 

[Taro T]

5 hours ago, Ctaeth said:

I'd like to see literally anyone but Olofsson up there on the second line.  I am defining "anyone" as anyone from those last 2 lines (Rousek-Jost-Biro/Murray-Kulich-Rosén).  I just don't think the guy has it to be honest... but would love to proven wrong.  

Really expect that if Tuch is on the Mittelstadt line, that that is what Granato treats as the 2nd line.  And because of his usage on the PP and PK that Cozens will still be the 4th most used F behind last year's 1st line and just ahead of Mitts who doesn't get PK time and will be on the 2PP.  (Cozens could be 2PP too, depending on whether they want him in the middle of PP1 or Benson.  But that'll likely bounce around a bit.)

Also, expect that when they're protecting a lead that Tuch bounced to Thompson's line and Cozens joins Mitts line.  Olofsson, Peterka, and Benson being the guys that get to have the best seats in the house to watch the last 10 minutes.  (Well, next to Comrie/UPL's seat.)