We need to talk about Zach Benson making the team this year, 2023

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, That Aud Smell said:

Maaaaaan, @dudacek. I trusted you on that Clayton Keller thing. I TRUSTED YOU.

@Sabres Fan in NS already shattered my heart.

There’s nothing left.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

The number of 18yr old players who are successful in the NHL is low. Jack Eichel didn't do it. He turned 19 in the early part of the season. 

Fantilli is turning 19. Bedard will be 18 but he's on the Jack Hughes path. It's just a more difficult ask and less likely. Personally, I think Benson this year in the NHL is maybe a 35pt player. He needs better speed And teams will learn how to play him. I've loved him since the draft but I'm willing to be patient. 

Jack Hughes is a better comparable. 18yr old 5'10" player with 21pts in 60ish games. That's probably a good read on Benson. 

True to the bolded.  But, if Benson earns a regular season look over these next 4 games (that he might legitimately play in 3 of them) see no harm in giving him his 9 game look see.  

But, the reason Eichel wasn't playing well in the NHL at 18 wasn't because he wasn't good enough.  It's because most of his 18 year old year was spent tearing up the NCAA waiting for his draft class to be selected.

And apologies for the repetition, but really don't see why Benson should be kept off the Sabres IF he earns a spot and makes the Sabres better just because he's 18.

[JohnC]

33 minutes ago, Taro T said:

True to the bolded.  But, if Benson earns a regular season look over these next 4 games (that he might legitimately play in 3 of them) see no harm in giving him his 9 game look see.  

But, the reason Eichel wasn't playing well in the NHL at 18 wasn't because he wasn't good enough.  It's because most of his 18 year old year was spent tearing up the NCAA waiting for his draft class to be selected.

And apologies for the repetition, but really don't see why Benson should be kept off the Sabres IF he earns a spot and makes the Sabres better just because he's 18.

Your last sentence resonated with me. There was a time when young players who were not ready were rushed before they came close to demonstrating that they were ready for NHL play. Mitts is a classic example of that. And Tage also was rushed before he was physically ready for the NHL. One of the reasons was that there was a dearth of talent on the team. That's not what the situation is now. The Benson situation is significantly different from those examples. His play, not his draft status, is the primary reason why there is a discussion about keeping him up with the big club, at least for an introductory stint, if not longer.

It's taken awhile to get to the point where there is enough talent in camp where there is internal competition for a roster spot. As you and others have noted, if he earns a roster spot, as he seems to be doing, it will be because his play has warranted him being given a longer look. This is a situation that shouldn't be feared----it is a situation that should be celebrated. 

 

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

but really don't see why Benson should be kept off the Sabres IF he earns a spot and makes the Sabres better just because he's 18.

Because history teaches that 18 year olds tend not to hold up well in a modern NHL regular season?

That’d be the thinking anyway.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

True to the bolded.  But, if Benson earns a regular season look over these next 4 games (that he might legitimately play in 3 of them) see no harm in giving him his 9 game look see.  

But, the reason Eichel wasn't playing well in the NHL at 18 wasn't because he wasn't good enough.  It's because most of his 18 year old year was spent tearing up the NCAA waiting for his draft class to be selected.

And apologies for the repetition, but really don't see why Benson should be kept off the Sabres IF he earns a spot and makes the Sabres better just because he's 18.

I think you're missing my point. It's unlikely he makes the Sabres better because he's 18. Jack Hughes was my example. 21pts in 60ish games isn't super helpful. Idc if the play him 9 games or less tbh. But either way, he'll end up where he's supposed to. No worries either way. 

[tom webster]

Haven’t read this whole thread, so maybe someone else mentioned it, but you do not have to look far to find an example of someone who made it big as an 18 year old. Our own Jeff Skinner scored 31 goals as an 18 year old after being drafted 7th. It doesn’t happen often, but it’s not unheard of.

[Taro T]

15 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Because history teaches that 18 year olds tend not to hold up well in a modern NHL regular season?

That’d be the thinking anyway.

But that's the inverse of the same logic that people who weren't paying attention to how he was playing were using for keeping Sam Reinhart on the big club after his 9 game look had passed.  "Well, the last guy drafted in the top 3 that DIDN'T make the NHL right off was Dumont.  So, they will keep him."  (Then it became they have to keep him.)  Reinhart wasn't ready for it.  Well, he wasn't ready for it.  He was good sized for an 18 yo but was getting knocked around a lot and he wasn't strong enough nor strong enough on his skates to be effective in the NHL.  Even the Murray run Sabres ended up smart enough to see that he was better off rounding out his game in the W than getting knocked around in the show.  There are always exceptions to every "rule."

Only 2-3 18 year olds any given year are ready for the NHL and actually make it and belong there.  Just because the Sabres lucked out and got this kid to slide to 13 doesn't mean he doesn't belong nor that he doesn't even deserve a shot and that he ISN'T one of those 2-3 that deserve that opportunity this season.  He's looking really good so far.

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think you're missing my point. It's unlikely he makes the Sabres better because he's 18. Jack Hughes was my example. 21pts in 60ish games isn't super helpful. Idc if the play him 9 games or less tbh. But either way, he'll end up where he's supposed to. No worries either way. 

Don't believe so.  As stated above, there truly are only 2-3 kids each year that belong in the NHL at 18 (and occasionally not even that many).  But IMHO saying only a couple or a handful are good enough to make that jump and even fewer truly belong doesn't really matter.  This discussion isn't about a generic 18 yo.  It is about Benson specifically.  And he hasn't looked out of place at all and IMHO has been one of the 10 best Sabres forwards that have been put out onto the ice.

And agree that he will end up where he's supposed to.  Adams and Granato seem to have a good handle on that aspect of the game.

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Haven’t read this whole thread, so maybe someone else mentioned it, but you do not have to look far to find an example of someone who made it big as an 18 year old. Our own Jeff Skinner scored 31 goals as an 18 year old after being drafted 7th. It doesn’t happen often, but it’s not unheard of.

And Ryan O'Reilly was a 2nd rounder who made the show out of the gate too.  (Much different body type and player than either Skinner or Benson and he wasn't a scorer early in his career; but it DOES happen on occassion.)

[JohnC]

16 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Haven’t read this whole thread, so maybe someone else mentioned it, but you do not have to look far to find an example of someone who made it big as an 18 year old. Our own Jeff Skinner scored 31 goals as an 18 year old after being drafted 7th. It doesn’t happen often, but it’s not unheard of.

I don't think anyone else in this long thread has cited the Skinner example. It's a good comparable example. A very young player on a good roster is in a much better situation than a young player playing on a less talented roster. If Benson does make the final cut, he will be on a good team where he will have less pressure. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by JohnC

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, Taro T said:

But that's the inverse of the same logic that people who weren't paying attention to how he was playing were using for keeping Sam Reinhart on the big club after his 9 game look had passed.  "Well, the last guy drafted in the top 3 that DIDN'T make the NHL right off was Dumont.  So, they will keep him."  (Then it became they have to keep him.)  Reinhart wasn't ready for it.  Well, he wasn't ready for it.  He was good sized for an 18 yo but was getting knocked around a lot and he wasn't strong enough nor strong enough on his skates to be effective in the NHL.  Even the Murray run Sabres ended up smart enough to see that he was better off rounding out his game in the W than getting knocked around in the show.  There are always exceptions to every "rule."

Only 2-3 18 year olds any given year are ready for the NHL and actually make it and belong there.  Just because the Sabres lucked out and got this kid to slide to 13 doesn't mean he doesn't belong nor that he doesn't even deserve a shot and that he ISN'T one of those 2-3 that deserve that opportunity this season.  He's looking really good so far.

Don't believe so.  As stated above, there truly are only 2-3 kids each year that belong in the NHL at 18 (and occasionally not even that many).  But IMHO saying only a couple or a handful are good enough to make that jump and even fewer truly belong doesn't really matter.  This discussion isn't about a generic 18 yo.  It is about Benson specifically.  And he hasn't looked out of place at all and IMHO has been one of the 10 best Sabres forwards that have been put out onto the ice.

And agree that he will end up where he's supposed to.  Adams and Granato seem to have a good handle on that aspect of the game.

No there are not. There are maybe 2 drafted players who go straight to the NHL. Not all drafted players are 18 their first year. This past draft might see 3 but it was very deep. Many drafts see 1 drafted player. I think your confusion drafted with 18yr old season. Adam Fantilli will be in the NHL but he's 19. Bedard is 18. 

Again Benson could make it but the likelihood he's good or impactful immediately are slim. Not impossible and I'm not against it happening. 

I think Skinner is a good example but he's an exception. What Skinner did is rare. I'm not saying Benson cannot do this, I'm just saying it's unlikely. 

[triumph_communes]

You can’t tell a kid who is standing up Crosby shift after shift he can’t cut it. Some people are built differently. 

[That Aud Smell]

6 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Some people are built differently. 

It’s starting to seem that way with 9.

[Carmel Corn]

Anybody else feel like Benson is our best forward tonight?

[Taro T]

9 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No there are not. There are maybe 2 drafted players who go straight to the NHL. Not all drafted players are 18 their first year. This past draft might see 3 but it was very deep. Many drafts see 1 drafted player. I think your confusion drafted with 18yr old season. Adam Fantilli will be in the NHL but he's 19. Bedard is 18. 

Again Benson could make it but the likelihood he's good or impactful immediately are slim. Not impossible and I'm not against it happening. 

I think Skinner is a good example but he's an exception. What Skinner did is rare. I'm not saying Benson cannot do this, I'm just saying it's unlikely. 

And we're basically talking past each other.  You are right that Fantilli will be 19 when this season opens.  And Eichel was 19 for almost the entire year his rookie year, but he started out at 18.  Dahlin was 18 essentially his entire rookie year.

But your argument seems to be that well, in general, 18 yo's don't make the NHL and even fewer are impactful.  We are in agreement on that.  But that doesn't really color the discussion about Zach Benson at this point in time.  Because he is passing the eye test a week and a half ahead of the NHL season actually beginning.

Heck, the "smart" opinion is that Levi will be in over his head, if not immediately then soon after a book is out on him.  But he passes the eye test too.  And at this point, it doesn't make sense to view him in relation to the entire set of college goalies.  One of these things is not like the others.  IMHO, Benson has earned the opportunity to demonstrate that he might not be also.

Doubt we'll see eye to eye on this.  And that's fine.  We'll see 2 weeks from now how it ends up playing out.

[Skooby]

Doubting someone who plays this well now in itself is stupid, age is irrelevant & he’s money. We need money players.

[Sabres Super Fan]

If it was my call I would send Zach Benson back to junior. There is no need to rush him in my opinion. Go Sabres! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, triumph_communes said:

You can’t tell a kid who is standing up Crosby shift after shift he can’t cut it. Some people are built differently. 

The logic for not keeping him up has consistently been "he's 18, small, and history tells us...."

Not once have I read a post saying "he doesn't look like he belongs"

The most interesting parallel to me is "he's 21, small and history tells us..."

And in the case of Devon Levi, Adams and crew have ignored logic and, instead, trusted their eyes.

[PerreaultForever]

Zach Benson is 18 years old and  159 lbs sopping wet.  Come back to earth. 

[Curt]

9 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Zach Benson is 18 years old and  159 lbs sopping wet.  Come back to earth. 

I mean, he was officially weighed at 170 lbs at the draft combine, but whatever.

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, Curt said:

I mean, he was officially weighed at 170 lbs at the draft combine, but whatever.

Don't let the facts (or the way he's played) get in the way of your narrative.

Pretty sure he said the exact same thing about Patrice Bergeron on a Bruins board in 2003

Edited September 29, 2023 by dudacek

[Taro T]

35 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The logic for not keeping him up has consistently been "he's 18, small, and history tells us...."

Not once have I read a post saying "he doesn't look like he belongs"

The most interesting parallel to me is "he's 21, small and history tells us..."

And in the case of Devon Levi, Adams and crew have ignored logic and, instead, trusted their eyes.

Dang, we're even using versions of the same analogies now.  😄

[PerreaultForever]

37 minutes ago, Curt said:

I mean, he was officially weighed at 170 lbs at the draft combine, but whatever.

Says 159 ibs online but doesn't matter. Point is he isn't ready. Skilled yes, ready to play in the NHL no. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by PerreaultForever

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Says 159 ibs online but doesn't matter. Point is he isn't ready. Skilled yes, ready to play in the NHL no. 

Have you watched him at all?

[PerreaultForever]

30 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Don't let the facts (or the way he's played) get in the way of your narrative.

Pretty sure he said the exact same thing about Patrice Bergeron on a Bruins board in 2003

Wasn't on a Bruins board in 2003. Didn't have a clue about any of their draft picks. Only been paying closer attention to them over this time period because Sabres have been so damn depressing. Still, only partly familiar with their prospects (few of them as there are).

I will tell you what though, this kid Poitras looks like the real deal and might fill their void sooner than people think. He's 19 and chances are the Bruins will send him down because of it. Also bet if he was on the Sabres people here would be saying he has to be on the roster. He's that good too. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

So you think there's a chance?