The Sabres are a surprisingly big hockey team

[Weave]

39 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The starting 18 listed in the OP average a shade under 205 pounds (204.6). The biggest team on that list that list averages 204.

So…relatively a big team?

And for @Sabres Fan in NS 

When did you stop trusting me man?

This one hurts.

Trust, but verify.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You missed the point. The narrative of we are drafting small comes from what their stated sizes were when drafted.  In the embedded draft video KA says it himself.  He says, after they drafted Benson, that “they’ll say I drafted another small guy,” and then chuckles. (or something similar).  

This thread is not about the truth, but about the narratives surrounding this team.  This is a small team (False). This is a soft team (somewhat true but being changed).  We draft small skilled players (Somewhat true at forward, but not at all on defense).  Just because a narrative is based on some truth doesn’t mean the team will end up small or easy to play against. 

I did think Neuchev was smaller than the data I had.

This team isn't soft and that's not somewhat true. In fact it's blatantly false. 

1 hour ago, Mustache of God said:

So this shows me they're 19th and 21st in weight and then height, relatively not a big team. As others mentioned they don't play a physical game and Adams has even said he was tired of them getting pushed around and that's why he got Greenway. 

Being out muscled is also a symptom of having such a young team, they're not fully developed yet and I believe the grit will come. Look at Dahlin, for example, his first few years teams were clearly targeting him, in the past two seasons he's really development a mean streak and more players are going to follow suit.

No it didn't. I literally noted it wasn't updated for this season and needed updating

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, Mustache of God said:

So this shows me they're 19th and 21st in weight and then height, relatively not a big team. As others mentioned they don't play a physical game and Adams has even said he was tired of them getting pushed around and that's why he got Greenway. 

Being out muscled is also a symptom of having such a young team, they're not fully developed yet and I believe the grit will come. Look at Dahlin, for example, his first few years teams were clearly targeting him, in the past two seasons he's really development a mean streak and more players are going to follow suit.

I'd also add that size does not correlate well with winning and there's almost no correlation between size and physicality. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

21 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This team isn't soft and that's not somewhat true. In fact it's blatantly false. 

No it’s not.  This team for years has often been hemmed in our D zone by a physical forecheck.  Last season was no different.  KA has stated that his team needs to be tougher to play against and look who he has brought in; Lybushkin, Stillman, Greenway, Clifton, and Johnson.  If management didn’t think the team needed to be harder to play against, why bring in all these tougher players?

Edited September 23, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[Taro T]

19 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No it’s not.  This team for years has often been hemmed in our D zone by a physical forecheck.  Last season was no different.  KA has stated that his team needs to be tougher to play against and look who he has brought in; Lybushkin, Stillman, Greenway, Clifton, and Johnson.  If management didn’t think the team needed to be harder to play against, why bring in all these tougher players?

Not disagreeing that Adams saw a need to bring in some physical players as he obviously did.  

But, bringing in physical guys via small trade / FA has been Adams plan / modus operandi since he got an opportunity to begin to implement it.  

He's been adding skill through 2 routes: the draft and the big moves of top end players that weren't bought in.  That's where Cozens, Quinn, Peterka, Power, Tuch, Krebs, and Levi all came from.  (Plus Savoie, Kulich, Rosen, Östlund, Benson, the huge 2nd round C drafted this year.)

Every team is going to have turnover and has a need to upgrade and replace guys at the top and bottom of the roster.  It's pretty clear that Adams and his crew have a methodology to obtain the replacements and upgrades.  Skill players get brought in via the draft and major trades.  Expecting we'll be seeing much less of the latter for the short term, but when the glut of kids are ready to contribute we'll start to see those coming around again (whether it be established vets on the team or some of that raw young talent; there won't be room for it all).

And the "grinders" that every team needs will be brought in through minor trades and FA.

On paper, it makes a lot of sense.  Especially for a young team that can afford to let the draft picks percolate for a while in Junior and the A (or college).  And when a core piece needs to be replaced (say, by Skinner losing a step as he heads to and past the wrong side of 30), well there's a well stocked cupboard ready to step up (should the plan continue to play out as it seems it will).

And when they decide to move on from a Lyubushkin (a move that still seems premature from this vantage point, but again, the management has earned the benefit of the doubt IMHO), then there's FA (Johnson) or trades (Stillman) to allow that to happen.

[LGR4GM]

14 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Not disagreeing that Adams saw a need to bring in some physical players as he obviously did.  

But, bringing in physical guys via small trade / FA has been Adams plan / modus operandi since he got an opportunity to begin to implement it.  

He's been adding skill through 2 routes: the draft and the big moves of top end players that weren't bought in.  That's where Cozens, Quinn, Peterka, Power, Tuch, Krebs, and Levi all came from.  (Plus Savoie, Kulich, Rosen, Östlund, Benson, the huge 2nd round C drafted this year.)

Every team is going to have turnover and has a need to upgrade and replace guys at the top and bottom of the roster.  It's pretty clear that Adams and his crew have a methodology to obtain the replacements and upgrades.  Skill players get brought in via the draft and major trades.  Expecting we'll be seeing much less of the latter for the short term, but when the glut of kids are ready to contribute we'll start to see those coming around again (whether it be established vets on the team or some of that raw young talent; there won't be room for it all).

And the "grinders" that every team needs will be brought in through minor trades and FA.

On paper, it makes a lot of sense.  Especially for a young team that can afford to let the draft picks percolate for a while in Junior and the A (or college).  And when a core piece needs to be replaced (say, by Skinner losing a step as he heads to and past the wrong side of 30), well there's a well stocked cupboard ready to step up (should the plan continue to play out as it seems it will).

And when they decide to move on from a Lyubushkin (a move that still seems premature from this vantage point, but again, the management has earned the benefit of the doubt IMHO), then there's FA (Johnson) or trades (Stillman) to allow that to happen.

I think this is why I'm in disagreement with a few of you. I see it as a how Adams operates and not an indictment of the team being "soft"

[In The Buff]

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

Its not literally how big our guys are, its how big do our guys play?

Size helps & can be a bonus, but things like heart & passion you just cant teach.

[inkman]

I was banging the grit and sandpaper drum for 20 years.  While the team isn’t anywhere near what I envisioned, Adams has mentioned not wanting to get pushed around.  So he is cognizant of team physicality (hate that I just used that “word”) and knows it needed improvement.  Whether or not Greenway, Clifton, Johnson and Stillman are enough is anyone’s guess.  I’m glad Kevyn is trying to do something about it without adding a Ryan Reeves type player.  He’s doing it within the structure of the team.  The league is transitioning away from one dimensional pugilists.  If it remains a problem, I’m confident Adams does something about it. 

[Zamboni]

1 hour ago, inkman said:

I was banging the grit and sandpaper drum for 20 years.  While the team isn’t anywhere near what I envisioned, Adams has mentioned not wanting to get pushed around.  So he is cognizant of team physicality (hate that I just used that “word”) and knows it needed improvement.  Whether or not Greenway, Clifton, Johnson and Stillman are enough is anyone’s guess.  I’m glad Kevyn is trying to do something about it without adding a Ryan Reeves type player.  He’s doing it within the structure of the team.  The league is transitioning away from one dimensional pugilists.  If it remains a problem, I’m confident Adams does something about it. 

IMO the league fully transitioned away from one dimensional pugilists when they made it “illegal” to rip off your own helmet or rip off another players helmet during a fight. Or maybe it was when they made it “illegal” to try to pull a jersey over the opponents head. Ot perhaps even earlier than that. 
 

Grit and sandpaper I certainly like and appreciate.
 

One dimensional pugilists will never return. And the league is better for it. And lastly, a fight in a preseason game doesn’t indicate “the official beginning of hockey”. It’s just two players fighting for a roster spot or to be noticed by their respective clubs. Nothing more. Yawn.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Zamboni

[GASabresIUFAN]

23 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I think this is why I'm in disagreement with a few of you. I see it as a how Adams operates and not an indictment of the team being "soft"

Lol, KA inherited players like Skinner, Thompson, VO among others who don’t backcheck well which is why KA backfilled his roster with tougher players.  

Also just because you add a skill player via the draft or trade that doesn’t mean that will be their role with the Sabres.  Amerks HCSA said the other day that he is working with Ryan Johnson to focus on being a stay at home D who uses his excellent skating to get the transition game going because that is his role to the NHL.  Add that our 4th line is made up for 3 1st rd picks in KO, Z and either Jost or Krebs.  

Let’s also look at Mitt’s development.  Once DG convinced to start hitting guys and muscling guys to win puck battles he blossomed offensively and defensively. Dahlin is the same story.  He focus on being more physical and playing harder defensively and he blossomed on both ends.  Just imagine if TNT would get the same message.  

The biggest change is on defense.  Enter tough guys who can skate in Johnson and Clifton and out soft Bryson and Clague and pokey Lyubushkin. 

Let’s face it, your team doesn’t give up 300 goals, have the worst PK and lead the league in high danger chances allowed without being a little soft  especially in our zone.  
 

[Taro T]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:43 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Lol, KA inherited players like Skinner, Thompson, VO among others who don’t backcheck well which is why KA backfilled his roster with tougher players.  

Also just because you add a skill player via the draft or trade that doesn’t mean that will be their role with the Sabres.  Amerks HCSA said the other day that he is working with Ryan Johnson to focus on being a stay at home D who uses his excellent skating to get the transition game going because that is his role to the NHL.  Add that our 4th line is made up for 3 1st rd picks in KO, Z and either Jost or Krebs.  

Let’s also look at Mitt’s development.  Once DG convinced to start hitting guys and muscling guys to win puck battles he blossomed offensively and defensively. Dahlin is the same story.  He focus on being more physical and playing harder defensively and he blossomed on both ends.  Just imagine if TNT would get the same message.  

The biggest change is on defense.  Enter tough guys who can skate in Johnson and Clifton and out soft Bryson and Clague and pokey Lyubushkin. 

Let’s face it, your team doesn’t give up 300 goals, have the worst PK and lead the league in high danger chances allowed without being a little soft  especially in our zone.  
 

Lol, KA inherited players like Simmonds, Frolik, Vesey, Sobotka, Larsson, Asplund, Lazar, and Kahun among others who couldn't score on an even semi-regular basis if their lives depended upon it which is why KA backfilled his roster with skilled players.  

Also just because you add a physical player via FA that doesn’t mean that will be their role with the Sabres.  Sabres HCDG said the other day that he is going to see how Connor Clifton works with Rasmus Dahlin to focus on being a 2 way D who uses his excellent skating to get the transition game going because that is his role to the NHL.  Add that the Sabres largest power forwards Tuch, Cozens, and Greenway will be major cogs on the top line, the 2nd line, and any of the 3 scoring lines.

Let’s also look at Cozen’s development.  Once DG convinced one of the biggest forwards to start trusting in his shot and his instincts he blossomed offensively and defensively.  Just imagine if Greenway would get the same message.  

The biggest change is on defense.  Enter skaters who can play tough in Johnson and Clifton and exit physical guys that can't score like Fitzgerald and Lyubushkin while moving everybody's 2nd favorite Sabres D-man from the top pairing to the bottom pairing. 

Let’s face it, your team doesn’t score nearly 300 goals, have a top 10 PP and be amongst the league leaders in high danger chances created without being willing to continually attack the other team and forecheck with abandon.

 

My, how easy it is to draw a completely different picture from the same data when one only wants to focus on a portion of the picture and ignore anything that runs counter to the narrative.  😉

Edited September 25, 2023 by Taro T

[GASabresIUFAN]

55 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Lol, KA inherited players like Simmonds, Frolik, Vesey, Sobotka, Larsson, Asplund, Lazar, and Kahun among others who couldn't score on an even semi-regular basis if their lives depended upon it which is why KA backfilled his roster with skilled players.  

Also just because you add a physical player via FA that doesn’t mean that will be their role with the Sabres.  Sabres HCDG said the other day that he is going to see how Connor Clifton works with Rasmus Dahlin to focus on being a 2 way D who uses his excellent skating to get the transition game going because that is his role to the NHL.  Add that the Sabres largest power forwards Tuch, Cozens, and Greenway will be major cogs on the top line, the 2nd line, and any of the 3 scoring lines.

Let’s also look at Cozen’s development.  Once DG convinced one of the biggest forwards to start trusting in his shot and his instincts he blossomed offensively and defensively.  Just imagine if Greenway would get the same message.  

The biggest change is on defense.  Enter skaters who can play tough in Johnson and Clifton and exit physical guys that can't score like Fitzgerald and Lyubushkin while moving everybody's 2nd favorite Sabres D-man from the top pairing to the bottom pairing. 

Let’s face it, your team doesn’t score nearly 300 goals, have a top 10 PP and be amongst the league leaders in high danger chances created without being willing to continually attack the other team and forecheck with abandon.

 

My, how easy it is to draw a completely different picture from the same data when one only wants to focus on a portion of the picture and ignore anything that runs counter to the narrative.  😉

There is no counter-narrative.  DG wants to get more offense out of Clifton and Greenway.  He says they both have more to give, but that doesn't change why they were acquired in the first place.  They were acquired to make this team harder to play against.  The Athletic has pointed out today our top forwards had lousy defensive numbers last season.  That fact is partly because of youth and system, but that doesn't change the fact.  That doesn't mean they can't or won't improve this coming season, but they were lousy last season.  The facts are also that we gave up the most high-danger chances in the league and were at or near the bottom in PK, blocked shots, and hits. 

Kevyn Adams on Greenway - https://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/gm-kevyn-adams-becomes-emotional-talking-about-sabres-trade-for-jordan-greenway-beefs-team-up/

Quote

As I watched him very closely over the last number of weeks, I just think we have a player here that we don’t have currently. A player that adds physicality, grit, is a presence. He can hold onto pucks. He’s talented where he can make plays and get up and down the ice, but also that frame and his ability to hang onto pucks and just have a physical presence.”

Kevyn Adams on Clifton -https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/buffalo-sabres/news/connor-clifton-going-to-bring-a-lot-to-the-table-for-sabres

“He’s our kind of guy,” Adams said. “He’s competitive, he’s a great character person. He’s going to help our group. He’s a good skater, physical presence."

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

There is no counter-narrative.  DG wants to get more offense out of Clifton and Greenway.  He says they both have more to give, but that doesn't change why they were acquired in the first place.  They were acquired to make this team harder to play against.  The Athletic has pointed out today our top forwards had lousy defensive numbers last season.  That fact is partly because of youth and system, but that doesn't change the fact.  That doesn't mean they can't or won't improve this coming season, but they were lousy last season.  The facts are also that we gave up the most high-danger chances in the league and were at or near the bottom in PK, blocked shots, and hits. 

Kevyn Adams on Greenway - https://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/gm-kevyn-adams-becomes-emotional-talking-about-sabres-trade-for-jordan-greenway-beefs-team-up/

Kevyn Adams on Clifton -https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/buffalo-sabres/news/connor-clifton-going-to-bring-a-lot-to-the-table-for-sabres

“He’s our kind of guy,” Adams said. “He’s competitive, he’s a great character person. He’s going to help our group. He’s a good skater, physical presence."

 

Of course there can be and is a counter to your narrative.  @LGR4GM, amongst others but he most vociferously, has disagreed with you often on this issue.  

And Adams has wanted skill from even his physical guys too.  That's why the guys mentioned in the other post are gone.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Taro T