Nice Article on Connor Clifton and what he brings to the Sabres

[LGR4GM]

20 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

So your position is that Stillman or Bryson or Clague are better than Bush?

and do you believe we have adequate D depth?

I believe those players are as good or better than Boosh. 

No, we need David Jiricek. 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I know this won't be a popular opinion, but Bryson would among the better #8s in the league.

He's a mediocre #6 and an awful #4, but not many 8s have his skating ability and NHL experience.

If he stays at 8, meaning he never plays, then I am ok with him.  When he plays and moves into the 5/6 pair he is below average (worse than mediocre which implies some level of acceptable).  Improving from Bryson should not be that hard - Ryan Johnson is the first up.  

[K-9]

36 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

If he stays at 8, meaning he never plays, then I am ok with him.  When he plays and moves into the 5/6 pair he is below average (worse than mediocre which implies some level of acceptable).  Improving from Bryson should not be that hard - Ryan Johnson is the first up.  

I’d prefer him as a 9 down in Rochester with the Amerks. He might actually dominate at that level. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I disagree with the bolded as a good idea. Juggling forward lines is different from D pairs. D pairs need stability. They need to learn how to play with each other and communicate well. Forwards do as well, but to a much lesser extent. I'm a big believer in finding line chemistry more than just 3 high end guys together. But slotting a different forward into a line is a lot simpler than mixing D pairs. 

I think last year we saw a good fit between Mule and Rasmus and so I would leave that alone. Dahlin had his best season ever on that side. The key is finding a match for Power. You have Joker, which imo failed. You also have the new additions. So you are either going with the veteran/mentor or the younger guy who fits the system and adds a missing element. To me, I go with the younger guy (Clifton) and have the old guy with less minutes in the third pairing but still in the room to pass on the wisdom. 

Depth isn't great though, which is why dumping Bush was not smart imo despite his flaws and limitations. 

You misunderstood the point I was trying to make. There is no question that ideally you want to have a set pair of players. But sometimes experimenting with a variety of combinations is the right approach to take in order to find the most appropriate combo. And there is not unusual within a game to mix up the pairing to get a different dynamic. 

Considering that Stillman, Clague and Bryson may probably be on the roster, trading Lyubush was the right thing to do for the player. In addition, Ryan Johnson may not be that far away from moving up the ranks. The GM did the right thing for this proud Russian. 

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

As I've been saying in other replies I do worry about the depth after dumping Bush. imo we are one top 4 injury away from a D problem.

I think last year's Sabres believed they had 2 complementary top 4 guys in Joki and Mule. They still believe in those 2, but discovered they had nothing behind them. This year they believe they have 3, with the addition of Clifton.

I think last year's Sabres believed they had 2 decent 3rd pairing guys with Bryson and Lyubushkin and OK depth with Clague and Pilut. They were wrong on all counts except maybe Clague. This year they believe they upgraded Lyubushkin with Johnson and Pilut with Stillman. And they hope Ryan Johnson pushes Bryson and Clague.

I don't think there's any doubt they are deeper. We'll see if they're right on Jokiharju and the Johnsons

 

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Ryan Johnson already can do everything Lyubushkin did. Novikov will be there shortly as well. 

 

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

That's not the point though. The point is Stillman. Bryson, Clague. I would feel better about our D if Bush was #7 , not Stillman etc. 

I like Bush better than Bryson and Stillman too. But I think the difference is negligible. and we have a couple intriguing kids pushing now too.

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

If he stays at 8, meaning he never plays, then I am ok with him.  When he plays and moves into the 5/6 pair he is below average (worse than mediocre which implies some level of acceptable).  Improving from Bryson should not be that hard - Ryan Johnson is the first up.  

i remember Bryson's first 100 NHL games as being better than what we saw last year.

I think his failures when elevated into a top 4 role in the 8-game losing streak shattered his confidence.

I suspect he'll be better this year.

Edited September 9, 2023 by dudacek

[JoeSchmoe]

I haven't read this entire thread, but...

-Connor Clifton had a 48.4% expected goal % on a team that had a goal differential that was almost double the 2nd place team (+128BOS +67DAL). 

-His stats prior to being on last year's all-time great regular season team have been pretty abysmal.

Why has he been crowned the #4 spot? 

 

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think last year's Sabres believed they had 2 complementary top 4 guys in Joki and Mule. They still believe in those 2, but discovered they had nothing behind them. This year they believe they have 3, with the addition of Clifton.

I think last year's Sabres believed they had 2 decent 3rd pairing guys with Bryson and Lyubushkin and OK depth with Clague and Pilut. They were wrong on all counts except maybe Clague. This year they believe they upgraded Lyubushkin with Johnson and Pilut with Stillman. And they hope Ryan Johnson pushes Bryson and Clague.

Nah, they were wrong on Clague, too. He has no business being on an NHL roster. 

Hell of an A league player, though.

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Nah, they were wrong on Clague, too. He has no business being on an NHL roster. 

Hell of an A league player, though.

Clague played 18, 36 and 33 NHL games the past three years.

The Sabres projected him as their 7/8/9 (forgot Fitzpatrick) and he did about as well as you'd expect an 8 to play.

Not saying this about you particularly, but I'm generally reading that people have inflated opinions of other rosters — that they have NHL defencemen regularly sitting in the press box.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by dudacek

[K-9]

16 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Clague played 18, 36 and 33 NHL games the past three years.

The Sabres projected him as their 7/8/9 (forgot Fitzpatrick) and he did about as well as you'd expect an 8 to play.

Not saying this about you particularly, but I'm generally reading that people have inflated opinions of other rosters — that they have NHL defencemen regularly sitting in the press box.

 

I fully understand that other teams have 7th, 8th, and 9th defensemen they hope never have to see the ice. Most 7th, 8th, and 9th defensemen just aren’t good enough because if they were … 

Anyway, the fact that every other team has less than NHL caliber D men waiting in the wings if necessary does not make me feel the least bit better about our own less than NHL caliber defensemen also waiting in the wings. We all saw what happened in the ‘06 playoffs vs. Carolina, after all. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I believe those players are as good or better than Boosh. 

No, we need David Jiricek. 

You can’t possibly believe that Bryson, Stillman and Clague are better hockey players than Lyubushkin.  Bryson is the worst skater (non-goaltender) on the team by a wide margin.  Clague is marginally better than Bryson and Stillman is terrible.  The only reason he is still here is that he is youngish and on a cheap contract.  The truth is these guys are AAAA players at best.  Lyubuskin, who isn’t very good either, is at least an NHL D.  Its the reason he was traded.  He had actual trade value, the others not so much.

Edited September 10, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You can’t possibly believe that Bryson, Stillman and Clague are better hockey players than Lyubushkin.  Bryson is the worst skater on the team by a wide margin.  Clague is marginally better than Bryson and Stillman is terrible.  The only reason he is still here is that he is youngish and on a cheap contract.  The truth is these guys are AAAA players at best.  Lyubuskin, who isn’t very good either, is at least an NHL D.  Its the reason he was traded.  He had actual trade value, the others not so much.

What?  Bryson has plenty of issues but is a very good skater.

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

What?  Bryson has plenty of issues but is a very good skater.

Skater as in non-goaltender.

[PerreaultForever]

23 hours ago, JohnC said:

You misunderstood the point I was trying to make. There is no question that ideally you want to have a set pair of players. But sometimes experimenting with a variety of combinations is the right approach to take in order to find the most appropriate combo. And there is not unusual within a game to mix up the pairing to get a different dynamic. 

Considering that Stillman, Clague and Bryson may probably be on the roster, trading Lyubush was the right thing to do for the player. In addition, Ryan Johnson may not be that far away from moving up the ranks. The GM did the right thing for this proud Russian. 

Well we're not going to agree on Bush and I don't care what the right thing to do for the player is. If he can't play well even to be a 5 or 6 guy so what if he sits? Move him at the deadline if your depth holds up. idc. Stillman arguably is sort of as good but Bryson and Clague no way. Both are crap for different reasons. 

On the pairings, I just don't want to hear about experiments and learning this year. No more development years. Continual development and coaches working with kids of course, but behind the overall idea of winning and making the playoffs now, this year. Not some talk about a dynasty in 5 years. Playoffs. Just playoffs. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

22 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Just playoffs. 

It needs to be the goal here now.  I thought bringing in Clifton and Johnson were the acknowledgement that management wants to contend this season. What doesn’t fit with that message is the retention of UPL and Comrie.  UPL was 60 of 75 in save% among NHL goalies with at least 15 games played last season. Comrie was 68/75.

[LGR4GM]

20 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You can’t possibly believe that Bryson, Stillman and Clague are better hockey players than Lyubushkin.  Bryson is the worst skater (non-goaltender) on the team by a wide margin.  Clague is marginally better than Bryson and Stillman is terrible.  The only reason he is still here is that he is youngish and on a cheap contract.  The truth is these guys are AAAA players at best.  Lyubuskin, who isn’t very good either, is at least an NHL D.  Its the reason he was traded.  He had actual trade value, the others not so much.

You're in here asking if I think chili's is better than Applebee's. They both are mediocre dumpster fires. Boosh had trade value, that's true, but he's just as meh as the other 3 and very shortly we're going to see Johnson and Novikov overtake them. It just doesn't matter and I think Stillman has the potential to be better than Boosh. 

Really says something when we're bitching about the 7th defender. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well we're not going to agree on Bush and I don't care what the right thing to do for the player is. If he can't play well even to be a 5 or 6 guy so what if he sits? Move him at the deadline if your depth holds up. idc. Stillman arguably is sort of as good but Bryson and Clague no way. Both are crap for different reasons. 

On the pairings, I just don't want to hear about experiments and learning this year. No more development years. Continual development and coaches working with kids of course, but behind the overall idea of winning and making the playoffs now, this year. Not some talk about a dynasty in 5 years. Playoffs. Just playoffs. 

Lyubush wasn't very good last year. He was a major disappointment. If he would have been retained, he would be a fringe player who would have been at best a 4th pairing player. In Granato's system that is predicated on speed and skating ability he was/is an ill-fit. He's not worth getting agitated over. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Considering we used 12 and 11 D the last 2 seasons, the 3 guys who we utilized in the 7th role last season played 60+ games, and Stillman ended up in the 6th role, I’d say the 7th D is an important role for us even with the additions of Johnson and Clifton.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It needs to be the goal here now.  I thought bringing in Clifton and Johnson were the acknowledgement that management wants to contend this season. What doesn’t fit with that message is the retention of UPL and Comrie.  UPL was 60 of 75 in save% among NHL goalies with at least 15 games played last season. Comrie was 68/75.

The goal needs to be Stanley Cup contender.  Not simply playoffs.  

Believe internally it is.  

Would believe much more strongly that the goal can be reached this year if the goaltending was more certain and the D went NHL caliber beyond only #7.  (He's not a great NHLer, but Stillman is an NHLer.  Won't go that far at this time on anyone below him on the depth chart though at least 2 and likely 3 guys below him will see NHL action.)

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

Lyubush wasn't very good last year. He was a major disappointment. If he would have been retained, he would be a fringe player who would have been at best a 4th pairing player. In Granato's system that is predicated on speed and skating ability he was/is an ill-fit. He's not worth getting agitated over. 

My view is we asked too much of him and in doing so his game fell apart. The same thing might happen with Clifton. Clifton's better than Bush by far, but if we ask too much from him idk how he will respond as it hasn't happened before. 

Really tired of hearing "Granato's system" as an explanation for anything though. Hockey is hockey and his "system" so far is severely flawed in terms of defense. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

The goal needs to be Stanley Cup contender.  Not simply playoffs.  

One step at a time though right? The point is what's the goal for THIS season. No more talk about development years imo. Get in the playoffs and then get in them every year after that until you do win that cup. 

[Taro T]

53 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

One step at a time though right? The point is what's the goal for THIS season. No more talk about development years imo. Get in the playoffs and then get in them every year after that until you do win that cup. 

Again, IMHO, the goal needs to be legit contender.  They may not be good enough to be one.  But they can't be satisfied being in the mix for the 2 WCs.  They need to be shooting for top 3 in the division and feel the urgency if they aren't in that mix.  Or else, they very well could be on to year 13.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

One step at a time though right? The point is what's the goal for THIS season. No more talk about development years imo. Get in the playoffs and then get in them every year after that until you do win that cup. 

The goal this season and every season from here on in should be the Stanley Cup

 

[Taro T]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The goal this season and every season from here on in should be the Stanley Cup

 

And honestly believe that it is.

[PerreaultForever]

47 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The goal this season and every season from here on in should be the Stanley Cup

 

Well sure, but you still have to be realistic. The point is this year (and every year from now on) should be about winning and not development. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well sure, but you still have to be realistic. The point is this year (and every year from now on) should be about winning and not development. 

This is kinda why I started the thread comparing this team to the 2005/06 team.

You never did buy into what development was doing. It wasn’t about biding time until we’re ready to bring in the missing pieces to go for it. It’s been about forging the missing pieces from the pieces at hand.

This team - as it is constructed right now - should not be waiting for Kevyn Adams to acquire Connor Hellebuyck or Brett Pesce, or for Matt Savoie and Zach Benson to turn 25.

Just like the group did in 05/06, Skinner Tuch Thompson Cozens Mittelstadt Dahlin Power Samuelsson Levi can be, and need to be a contender’s core right now. They have enough size and skill and they've reached the point where they can’t plead inexperience any more.

The rest can be, and need to be, a contender’s supporting cast right now. They have talent and they have the depth.

Being realistic is being able to say “Florida nearly did it, why can’t we be as good as Florida?” Being realistic is about saying we’ve reached a critical mass to where we can be in the mix every year, just like Boston and Tampa did 10 years ago, or the Leafs did or the Hurricanes did 5 years ago.

It’s not about waiting for Boston or Tampa to slip and gift them a spot, it’s about playing the hand we’ve got, stepping up and taking it.