How many days until the Sabres season

[thewookie1]

49 minutes ago, Weave said:

Absolutely.  The task KA inherited was enormous.  

I think it is fairly safe to say that the team is improved, the culture improved, the prospect pool improved.

I think it is also fairly safe to say there is no success yet.  That level of improvement is yet to be determined.

I might slightly rephrase it as there being no  significant “hockey” success. Since I’d definitely say the team and franchise cultural overhaul has been a success.

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, thewookie1 said:

I might slightly rephrase it as there being no  significant “hockey” success. Since I’d definitely say the team and franchise cultural overhaul has been a success.

In terms of how they are perceived among the fanbase and around the league?

That’s fair, but it’s also fleeting if they cough up an 84-point season next year.

[Weave]

17 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I might slightly rephrase it as there being no  significant “hockey” success. Since I’d definitely say the team and franchise cultural overhaul has been a success.

I suppose.  But it’s a bit like saying the tank was a success because we landed one of the two top players even though the process prevented team success. As successes go, it’s pretty empty.

The cultural overhaul is going to be meaningless if on ice success doesn’t materialize.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Weave

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Weave said:

The bolded confuses me.  There is nothing radical about seizing an opportunity and going for it.  It would not have been radical leading up to last seasons trade deadline to give up some of what we have in excess for a playoff push.  We knew we were close then.  We can only assume we may be close again this time.
 

And the game KA playing, while appears to be low risk, actually has significant risk.  As I have been saying so frequently lately, the future is not guaranteed.  This season could be the season Tage develops career changing knee issues, or Dahlin, or our unproven goalie savior the we are leaning so heavily on.  Ottawa or Detroit could suddenly spit out an unexpected superstar (like we just did), making our task even more uphill than it already is.  KA is every bit as much rolling the dice by depending on a nearly fully team developing in unison as he would be by seizing the moment and moving some of what is collected to procure a more known quantity.

You can’t assume KA’s way is the right way until it actually bears fruit.  There are blossoms setting, but an unexpected frost or pestilence and there is no harvest.

There is still offseason left.  We’ll see what he does.  The time is right for a move that solidifies playoffs, just as it was at the deadline last season.

 

What deal did you want the GM to make last season? He attempted to trade for Chycrun, and was willing to give up a first round pick (reported). The deal wasn't consummated because Ottawa wanted more. So he declined. That was the right move. As it turned out he kept the first-round pick and used it to draft Benson. Most commentators believed that it was a good pick. 

It's often repeated that the future is not guaranteed. That's not a revelation to anyone. I'm sure that the GM looked at the goalie options this offseason. Which one do you think is a difference maker? Some people were advocating for Hellebuyck. Hell no! I'm not giving up valuable assets for a rental. There were those who were advocating for trading for Saros. As far as I know he wasn't on the trade market. And if he were the price would be exorbitant. Again, hell no!

The point you make about KA's way not bearing fruit is inconsistent with what is actually going on. The Sabres improved by 16 points from the previous year with one of the youngest rosters in the league. If that is not an indication of being on a steep upward trajectory, then what standard are you using? If you consider immense improvement to be a failure, then you and I are using different measuring sticks. 

If you strongly desire to see more moves this offseason, I'm confident that you are going to be deeply disappointed. Listen to what the GM says. There is no hidden agenda. What he says is what he does. 

 

[Weave]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

What deal did you want the GM to make last season? He attempted to trade for Chycrun, and was willing to give up a first round pick (reported). The deal wasn't consummated because Ottawa wanted more. So he declined. That was the right move. As it turned out he kept the first-round pick and used it to draft Benson. Most commentators believed that it was a good pick. 

It's often repeated that the future is not guaranteed. That's not a revelation to anyone. I'm sure that the GM looked at the goalie options this offseason. Which one do you think is a difference maker? Some people were advocating for Hellebuyck. Hell no! I'm not giving up valuable assets for a rental. There were those who were advocating for trading for Saros. As far as I know he wasn't on the trade market. And if he were the price would be exorbitant. Again, hell no!

The point you make about KA's way not bearing fruit is inconsistent with what is actually going on. The Sabres improved by 16 points from the previous year with one of the youngest rosters in the league. If that is not an indication of being on a steep upward trajectory, then what standard are you using? If you consider immense improvement to be a failure, then you and I are using different measuring sticks. 

If you strongly desire to see more moves this offseason, I'm confident that you are going to be deeply disappointed. Listen to what the GM says. There is no hidden agenda. What he says is what he does. 

 

I thoroughly expect that there won’t be as many changes as I think should be made.  I’m not going to judge KA on it.  I am going to judge him on whether the Sabres are one of the last 16 teams playing hockey this season.

As for what he should have done last season….. it’s a performance based business.  All I know is, there wasn’t Sabres hockey to watch when the last 16 teams were playing.  He needed to get the team 2pts better. He didn’t do enough.  Period.  I don’t care about the reasons why.  I care that 16 other teams found a way and ours wasn’t one of them.

[Weave]

9 minutes ago, JohnC said:

If you consider immense improvement to be a failure, then you and I are using different measuring sticks. 

 

 

I never said failure.  That is your word.  I’m not going to use the word success though either, because ultimately the team didn’t.

[JohnC]

18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

In terms of how they are perceived among the fanbase and around the league?

That’s fair, but it’s also fleeting if they cough up an 84-point season next year.

You have a unique vantage on the Sabres because you are following them from afar and are able to receive more outside commentary.  Most of the out-of-town commentators that I listened to when watching the opposing team's coverage were usually complimentary about the team and its near future prospects. 

Would you consider a 96 point season a failure? Every year there are a few teams that are racked with an inordinate number of injuries. If that happens to the Sabres and they aren't able to make the playoffs, then is the season a failure? There are no guarantees. 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Weave said:

I never said failure.  That is your word.  I’m not going to use the word success though either, because ultimately the team didn’t.

I am going to use the word success because I believe rebuilding a team into a contending team takes time and is a process. In my view, the Sabres had a successful season last year. Were there disappointments? Of course. But in general, it was a successful season and left me encouraged entering this season. 

[JohnC]

11 minutes ago, Weave said:

I thoroughly expect that there won’t be as many changes as I think should be made.  I’m not going to judge KA on it.  I am going to judge him on whether the Sabres are one of the last 16 teams playing hockey this season.

As for what he should have done last season….. it’s a performance based business.  All I know is, there wasn’t Sabres hockey to watch when the last 16 teams were playing.  He needed to get the team 2pts better. He didn’t do enough.  Period.  I don’t care about the reasons why.  I care that 16 other teams found a way and ours wasn’t one of them.

I don't know anyone who believed that entering the season last year that the Sabres were a playoff team, especially after the Krueger carnage. I'm comfortable in saying (speaking for myself) that last year was an entertaining and successful season. 

I agree with you that the NHL is a performance-based business. I can positively say that the team outperformed my expectations. 

[Weave]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I don't know anyone who believed that entering the season last year that the Sabres were a playoff team, especially after the Krueger carnage. I'm comfortable in saying (speaking for myself) that last year was an entertaining and successful season. 

I agree with you that the NHL is a performance-based business. I can positively say that the team outperformed my expectations. 

I have no problem with you being content with last season’s results.

I do not agree that KA should share your sense of accomplishment.

[dudacek]

Adams had one of the best offensive teams in the NHL and missed the playoffs by a single win.

I don’t think his job ahead of this summer was overly complex, even within the overarching mandate of sustainable success: cut the goals against enough to become a perennial playoff team.

Now there are many ways to make this happen and I will judge his off-season on the results of his decision in each:

Coaching:

Adams decided to keep the people responsible for league’s 29th ranked PK and its 26th ranked defence intact. The head coach said it is easier to coach defence than offence, implying strongly that offence and accelerating player development were his initial priorities. Granato is now saying the time for gaining experience is past, that youth is no longer an excuse, and that players will be held accountable for their errors. He has raised expectations that defence and situational awareness within the system will be more of a point of emphasis this season. There has been no suggestion that the system itself is being changed.

Changing the forwards:

The Sabres are, as the Twitterverse says, ‘running it back’ this year. The most significant change up front actually happened at the deadline last year with the addition of an out-of-shape Jordan Greenway, who was 1/3 of one of the NHL’s best defensive lines in Minnesota the 2 seasons previous to last. The team did not add a bottom-six centre, instead bringing back Tyson Jost as a UFA and choosing to lean on some mix of Mittelstadt, Krebs, Cozens and Thompson for their hard matchups. They have not moved their perceived “weakest link” up front defensively, Victor Olofsson. Instead, he is the odds-on favourite to fill the middle-six hole created by the injury to Jack Quinn, one of the team’s more defensively responsible youngsters.

Changing the defence:

While Adams stood pat with his top 3, he made his biggest off-season moves here, first adding Riley Stillman at the trade deadline, then Erik Johnson and Kyle Clifford in free agency. All 3 look like calculated efforts at finding upside and/or fit. Clifford will get a shot at top 4 minutes here after showing well in spot duty in that role with Boston while excelling on the 3rd pair. He brings edge and own-zone competence, while playing Granato-style hockey. Johnson is expected to be James Patrick circa 1999: savvy and a professional presence to supplement judicious situational usage. He can still skate and remains a mammoth human being, but he is no longer young and his contributions last year were questionable. Stillman was bad for the Canucks, but considered a better fit for the Sabres system. Like Clifford, he’s no tough guy, but he does bring some edge in a 6/7 role. The fact that Jacob Bryson frequently got top 4 minutes in the 1st half of last year and is now fighting off challenges from Kale Clague and Ryan Johnson to hold on to the 9th spot on the depth chart is indicative of how much deeper the team has become. It remains uncertain that this team has a playoff-calibre top 4.

Changing the goalies:

Most of Kevyn Adams’ eggs are in Devon Levi’s basket. His skill and charisma were obvious in his 7-game stint last year. His track record is impressive. The list of recent goalies who have carried an NHL load at his experience level exceedingly short. The fanbase antipathy for UPL is very high for a 24-year-old rookie with a winning record on a bad defensive team. His other numbers provide reason. Some remain hopeful Eric Comrie is more the competent backup he was during his last season in Winnipeg, than the Dustin Tokarski he’s been his other 8 professional seasons. Adams has decided - at least thus far - that he will get competent NHL goaltending in some form out of this trio.

Penalty-killing:

The Sabres penalty killing last year was the worst in franchise history. It was also the area the team did the most to address in the off-season. Both Clifton and Johnson are very good penalty killers and should be notable upgrades. Never having to use Bryson and Fitzgerald on the PK any more has to help. Granato talked about Johnson making everyone around him better here. There was a lot of auditioning going on last year, both on the blueline, and up front. Last year was Dylan Cozens’ first on the PK, Peyton Krebs didn’t start playing that role until the 2nd half (where he was 2nd in PK ice time) so there was definitely some learning on the job going on. Girgensons was probably the only “good” PKer up front, but the GM is betting Krebs, Quinn, Cozens and Tuch have the proper skilllset to do well there, maybe Greenway as well. A key will be setting up a proper rotation early and letting them find a groove. The most important change, however, will be more big and timely saves. Will Levi’s focus and athleticism make a difference here?

Experience

Adams seems to be putting a great deal of emphasis on this in 2 ways. First of all, Krebs Quinn Peterka Power Samuelsson and UPL now have a full season behind them; Thompson, Tuch, Cozens, Dahlin and Mittelstadt now have a full season of being “core” behind them. He’s betting they will all be better all-around players for it. Secondly, he has been very judicious in his choices of the veteran supplements he’s chosen to nourish his young core. He brought back Girgensons and Okposo because the tone they set is the tone he wants and he added Clifton and Johnson for the exact same reasons, plus the pedigree of playoff success with successful franchises. He’s very specifically chosen this mix and avoided “mercenaries”.  Finally, he’s also betting that his 3/4 from last year (Mule and Joker) will not suffer the same injury issues that have plagued them for the 2 previous seasons, and that the likes of Kulich, Rousek, Savoie and Biro are ready to step up and match up defensively should injuries strike up front.

Those are his choices when continued growth (read playoffs) is absolutely the mandate.

He wears the results.

Edited August 5, 2023 by dudacek

[Thorner]

14 hours ago, 7+6=13 said:

Just because you're not excited doesn't preclude another fan feeling we're in a good position for sustainable success. 

Not making the playoffs yet also doesn't define there hasn't been success. 

It's actually amazing to me that after all we've been through,  some fans can't see or maybe enjoy denying the fantastic position this team is in.  

We aren’t in a “fantastic” position if we miss the playoffs lol. Maybe you weren’t referring to this coming season, though 

10 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

There's been no success. There's been no competence shown, not in a league where half the teams make the playoffs.

Period.

As my dear friend SDS likes to say, stop trying to make fetch happen.

I thought I was the guy who said that 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorner]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

This place sucks. Every ***** thread is the same. Draft thread, season start thread, don't matter. All the same bitching. 

This is the exact policing that is severely cutting down my enjoyment here: an *overwhelmingly* positive board that has certain members actively losing their minds at even the sniff of the suggestion of concern 

you have it ass backwards. Respectfully

Edited August 5, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

…and yet you are still here….BITCHING.    Why not leave if all the “bitching” bothers you so much?

The place has become SO overwhelming “fall in line with the plan or you aren’t a true fan” positive that even the smallest critical take sticks out, like the singular drink to the non-drinker. It’s why we get takes like that, when it’s by FAR the most optimistic (deservedly so) its been in a while

Edited August 5, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

It’s possible to think Adams has done a good job of fixing the culture, building the hockey department, acquiring and developing young talent, and resetting the team on the positive path over the past 2 years, yet still question the decisions he has made this so far summer.

 

Exactly. Where John missteps is he keeps saying this is the “right” way to build. Even if we *succeed* that absolutely hasn’t been proven, there’s of course more than one way. Never mind waiting till we actually get success

Edited August 5, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

You have a unique vantage on the Sabres because you are following them from afar and are able to receive more outside commentary.  Most of the out-of-town commentators that I listened to when watching the opposing team's coverage were usually complimentary about the team and its near future prospects. 

Would you consider a 96 point season a failure? Every year there are a few teams that are racked with an inordinate number of injuries. If that happens to the Sabres and they aren't able to make the playoffs, then is the season a failure? There are no guarantees. 

Absolutely it’s a failure if we miss. Regardless of injuries. Are you kidding? As a GM, you can absolutely toss away *multiple* years to free pass evaluation years, as part of your plan, but the price is that once you are “ready to win”, your runway for conversion shrinks since we are WILLINGLY committing years to record where there is no expectation. Or else, why wouldn’t every GM select the long range plan, if they could be granted all these free cake years with NO CHANGE to the timeframe of expected success afterwords, once the team decides to turn the page?

A time frame of 5 years is more than fair. KA committed a terrible team to the ice his first year, and tossed away the next 2 in the name of development. That’s fine. But he’s got 2 years now: you have to make the playoffs within a 5 year frame 

- - - 
anyways that’s my weekly summer posting output matched in a day, my sincerest apologies 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Thorny

[Stoner]

18 minutes ago, Thorny said:

We aren’t in a “fantastic” position if we miss the playoffs lol 

I thought I was the guy who said that 

You said, Don't tase me, bro.

[JohnC]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Absolutely it’s a failure if we miss. Regardless of injuries. Are you kidding? As a GM, you can absolutely toss away *multiple* years to free pass evaluation years, as part of your plan, but the price is that once you are “ready to win”, your runway for conversion shrinks since we are WILLINGLY committing years to record where there is no expectation. Or else, why wouldn’t every GM select the long range plan, if they could be granted all these free cake years with NO CHANGE to the timeframe of expected success afterwords, once the team decides to turn the page?

A time frame of 5 years is more than fair. KA committed a terrible team to the ice his first year, and tossed away the next 2 in the name of development. That’s fine. But he’s got 2 years now: you have to make the playoffs within a 5 year frame 

- - - 
anyways that’s my weekly summer posting output matched in a day, my sincerest apologies 

You are making an assumption that the Sabres are going to have a disappointing season this year. I have a different view. It's not based on irrational optimism. You act as if time was squandered by playing the younger players for developmental reasons. That's where you and I part company. It was the willingness to play the younger players at the expense of playing more veteran players that puts me in the optimism camp rather than the demoralized camp. Cozens, Quinn, Samuelsson, Power,  Levi, JJP and Mitts to a lesser extent etc. accelerated their development because they played on a team that looked toward the near future than the present. I'm sure that's upsetting to some. It's not to me. At least to me, it was the right course of action to take.

[Thorner]

Just now, JohnC said:

You are making an assumption that the Sabres are going to have a disappointing season this year. I have a different view. It's not based on irrational optimism. You act as if time was squandered by playing the younger players for developmental reasons. That's where you and I part company. It was the willingness to play the younger players at the expense of playing more veteran players that puts me in the optimism camp rather than the demoralized camp. Cozens, Quinn, Samuelsson, Power,  Levi, JJP and Mitts to a lesser extent etc. accelerated their development because they played on a team that looked toward the near future than the present. I'm sure that's upsetting to some. It's not to me. At least to me, it was the right course of action to take.

I did not make that assumption 

In fact, I picked them to make the playoffs LAST year (contrary to your other statement, earlier, actually)

[dudacek]

8 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are making an assumption that the Sabres are going to have a disappointing season this year. I have a different view. It's not based on irrational optimism. You act as if time was squandered by playing the younger players for developmental reasons. That's where you and I part company. It was the willingness to play the younger players at the expense of playing more veteran players that puts me in the optimism camp rather than the demoralized camp. Cozens, Quinn, Samuelsson, Power,  Levi, JJP and Mitts to a lesser extent etc. accelerated their development because they played on a team that looked toward the near future than the present. I'm sure that's upsetting to some. It's not to me. At least to me, it was the right course of action to take.

I gotta say, that’s not what Thorny has been saying at all. He’s not talking about last year.

Hes talking about whether or not Adams has done enough for this team to take another step next year.

Edited August 5, 2023 by dudacek

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are making an assumption that the Sabres are going to have a disappointing season this year. I have a different view. It's not based on irrational optimism. You act as if time was squandered by playing the younger players for developmental reasons. That's where you and I part company. It was the willingness to play the younger players at the expense of playing more veteran players that puts me in the optimism camp rather than the demoralized camp. Cozens, Quinn, Samuelsson, Power,  Levi, JJP and Mitts to a lesser extent etc. accelerated their development because they played on a team that looked toward the near future than the present. I'm sure that's upsetting to some. It's not to me. At least to me, it was the right course of action to take.

You folks are basically incapable of  framing much of anything beyond the parameters of “optimism“, eh? It’s lazy, its boring, it’s honestly tiring. You aren’t interested in discussing anything other than continually laying out your belief in Adams’ course of action - I don’t mean this flippantly: you literally just continually state that Adams has a documented plan 

we know

dude I know 

[Thorner]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are making an assumption that the Sabres are going to have a disappointing season this year. I have a different view. It's not based on irrational optimism. You act as if time was squandered by playing the younger players for developmental reasons. That's where you and I part company. It was the willingness to play the younger players at the expense of playing more veteran players that puts me in the optimism camp rather than the demoralized camp. Cozens, Quinn, Samuelsson, Power,  Levi, JJP and Mitts to a lesser extent etc. accelerated their development because they played on a team that looked toward the near future than the present. I'm sure that's upsetting to some. It's not to me. At least to me, it was the right course of action to take.

I certainly have a better reading of your stance than you have of mine, it must be said.  The bold isn’t what I’m saying at all, you miss (ignore?) the nuance. I’m not (have never said) they squandered anything by engaging in development years: merely that conversion in a reasonable time frame afterwords is revelatory in terms of whether those years were squandered, or not

I deal in results

you deal in a peacocking your glorious optimism, for all to fall short of

Edited August 5, 2023 by Thorny

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I did not make that assumption 

Then what assumption are you making? My view is more upbeat based on what has transpired the past couple of years, especially how the team played last year. Your view is more pessimistic based on what has transpired the previous five years. 

I want to make a point in response to people who disagree with my take. I understand your lesser optimistic viewpoints and appreciate them. It's a very understandable stance to take. It's not difficult to understand why others have their different views. I will go as far to say that when others disagree with my position I seriously consider why they disagree and why they have a different perspective. That's how you grow. 

[JohnC]

Just now, Thorny said:

I certainly have a better reading of your stance than mine, it must be said.  The bold isn’t what I’m saying at all, you miss (ignore?) the nuance. I’m not (have never said) they squandered anything by engaging in development years: merely that conversion in a reasonable time frame afterwords is revelatory in terms of whether those year’s weekends squandered, or not

I deal in results

you deal in a peacocking your glorious optimism, for all to fall short of

I have said on a number of occasions that my time frame for expecting this team to be a playoff team is next season. That has nothing to do with peacocking any glorious optimism. 

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I gotta say, that’s not what Thorny has been saying at all. He’s not talking about last year.

Hes talking about whether or not Adams has done enough for this team to take another step next year.

I say yes he has; he says no. 

[Thorner]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Then what assumption are you making? My view is more upbeat based on what has transpired the past couple of years, especially how the team played last year. Your view is more pessimistic based on what has transpired the previous five years. 

I want to make a point in response to people who disagree with my take. I understand your lesser optimistic viewpoints and appreciate them. It's a very understandable stance to take. It's not difficult to understand why others have their different views. I will go as far to say that when others disagree with my position I seriously consider why they disagree and why they have a different perspective. That's how you grow. 

Optimism 

pessimism 

rinse

repeat 

Enough already