OT: Employment Interviews in the post covid 2020's

[Pimlach]

9 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

My mentor got his Masters degree in Electrical Engineering and never took out a loan, paid as he went.

For context, my Mentor is my age, 52, we worked together for the first time on the Lakeside Power Plant, Levi, Utah. That was in 05. He was 2 yrs in to schooling when I met him. He finished up his Masters in 2016. Yes, 11 yrs, but we could make 100k+ a year with the hours and only work 8 to 10 months. 

I always smirk when I hear all the hoopla around student loans. I literally don't know anyone in my personal life who took out loans. Every one of them worked, banked, paid, rinse and repeat per semester. And I know many who have degrees.

Sounds like you don’t have kids or if you do, you don’t know many of their friends.  The millennial and Z generation face a different world than Boomers and Xers did when it comes to college costs.   

I’m 65 and put 3 millennial kids through college.  I know lots of young people (age 22 thru 40) that had to take out big loans to get a degree.   Many were not properly prepared by parents and were feed a pile of lies in high school about this very subject.  Not enough of them utilize the community colleges to get a solid, low cost start - and to help them figure it out.  I blame parents and poor high school guidance for much of the problem with student loans and the expectation that you will make a lot of money if you go to college.  

It amazes me how a student today can graduate from high school and not understand the very basics of loans and debt  - every kid should be required to take personal finance in high school.  Credit and debt, interest, loan amortization, taxes, insurance, savings plans and budgets, the use of spreadsheets and tools - make this mandatory for high school sophomores.  Next, stop lying to high school kids about pay after college.   At the end of the day your financial compensation becomes a function of your chosen field, your degree, your actual job performance, your own career planning, your ability to communicate and work with others, your geographical location, and even a bit of luck.  

[Pimlach]

24 minutes ago, pastajoe said:

I can say from experience that once you get in your 60s and your health issues increase, having good medical and dental insurance is more important than higher pay if you’re already at a decent pay rate. You can be relatively healthy and still have issues requiring treatment and prescriptions. I’m retired and without dental insurance I just paid $1500 for a crown.

Yup.  I retired at 62 and had to fill the gap to Medicare at 65 for me and my wife.  It’s expensive.   You pay off your home and then health insurance for 2 is easily like another mortgage or more. 

[Doohicksie]

10 hours ago, gilbert11 said:

I was laid off a few years ago, in my late 50s, with nearly 20 years of experience in the Software QA field.  When I had no nibbles in 6 months, I decided to retire.  My resume was tailored to only reflect that recent experience so they possibly figured I was at least in my mid 40s.  That field generally looks for younger people privy to the new technologies.

Are you done looking?  Totally retired?

[Doohicksie]

10 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

I always smirk when I hear all the hoopla around student loans.  I literally don't know anyone in my personal life who took out loans.

Virtually everyone I know who has a degree took out student loans, and a lot of people who never managed to finish their degrees too (and most of the time the reason they didn't finish wasn't that they were lazy, it was that life happened- major illness, parent who needed care, etc.)  And really, smirking at other people's troubles is bad form.  I lost some respect for you over that remark.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Doohickie

[Pimlach]

10 hours ago, gilbert11 said:

I was laid off a few years ago, in my late 50s, with nearly 20 years of experience in the Software QA field.  When I had no nibbles in 6 months, I decided to retire.  My resume was tailored to only reflect that recent experience so they possibly figured I was at least in my mid 40s.  That field generally looks for younger people privy to the new technologies.

Interesting.  Software QA is a discipline that almost disappeared in my field (aerospace and defense).  The number of folks involved did significantly decrease over the decades.   Not that it isn’t important, it seems instead that the SW development processes have improved over the decades and quality is embedded into the process in each stage, and not something you do after the fact.  As you stated, software development is a field that looks for younger people in entry level positions in general.  

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

You must only know boomers and gen Xers with degrees then.  It has been a different world for almost 20 years now.

I'm a boomer/Xer (right on the line, used to consider myself a boomer but share little with that demographic these days).  I was apparently an early adopter of student loan hell.  It took a long time to pay them off (my wife still has some but they're manageable).  It was definitely a financial weight that hindered our spending and more importantly our ability to put money in savings.  Knowing what a burden it was on us, there's  no way I would wish that on someone else.  I'd much rather invest in working people by forgiving student loans than give Elon a tax break that gives him another billion.

[Doohicksie]

33 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Many were not properly prepared by parents and were feed a pile of lies in high school about this very subject.

I would say it was more that, well, taking out modest student loans worked for boomers and it was assumed it would work for millennials.  It wasn't lies so much as simply not understanding the economic changes that occurred over a generation.  Minimum wage is ***** these days and even a lot of professional wages are literally not enough to pay the bills.  College and university tuition has greatly outpaced inflation; many states have cut back in their investments in community colleges and state schools.  Financial deregulation has allowed predatory loan practices.  You really didn't have to work *that* hard to handle paying off student loans back in the day.  We struggled a bit but got over the hump.  Students these days face a nearly impossible task when trying to get an education and then trying to pay it off.

[Doohicksie]

12 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Interesting.  Software QA is a discipline that almost disappeared in my field (aerospace and defense).  The number of folks involved did significantly decrease over the decades.   Not that it isn’t important, it seems instead that the SW development processes have improved over the decades and quality is embedded into the process in each stage, and not something you do after the fact.  As you stated, software development is a field that looks for younger people in entry level positions in general.  

In my field (aerospace and defense), we're actually in a pinch for SWQA folks.

[MattPie]

22 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

In my field (aerospace and defense), we're actually in a pinch for SWQA folks.

I was thinking the same thing (aerospace and defense with a side of commercial telecom). The last effort I worked on had several people doing Software QA full-time as we delivered the systems to make the whole thing work. I can see dedicated QA trending down as the waterfall development method also trends down, but for now it seems like the jobs still exist.

[Marvin]

11 hours ago, gilbert11 said:

I was laid off a few years ago, in my late 50s, with nearly 20 years of experience in the Software QA field.  When I had no nibbles in 6 months, I decided to retire.  My resume was tailored to only reflect that recent experience so they possibly figured I was at least in my mid 40s.  That field generally looks for younger people privy to the new technologies.

There seems to be an uptick in software QA needs.  The doubling time for the number of developers is 5 years, so, if the companies have any brains, the need for software QA should go up commensurately.

[Scottysabres]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

You must only know boomers and gen Xers with degrees then.  It has been a different world for almost 20 years now.

I worked a barely over minimum wage job to pay for my first degree……. In 1985.  Got my next 2 part time while working a decent, but not great job, paid for a house, started a family.

25yrs later my son attempted the same, except had a job that paid $6/hr over minimum wage.  And he had to take out loans to finish at a community college. In high school he worked a farm and banked the money.  It’s not enough anymore.

Assuming it is still possible to work your way through college and not take out loans is being very unaware of reality today.

I cannot disagree with you, merely speak on what I've seen around me. My Nephew, age 29, worked his way through Buf State, started at 18, got his 4 year degree in education at 28 yrs old. Worked various jobs paying his way.

I'm not saying things haven't changed, I am saying it is possible. So far what I've noticed is the "time line" to achieve a degree without the loans can be lengthy, but possible.

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Sounds like you don’t have kids or if you do, you don’t know many of their friends.  The millennial and Z generation face a different world than Boomers and Xers did when it comes to college costs.   

I’m 65 and put 3 millennial kids through college.  I know lots of young people (age 22 thru 40) that had to take out big loans to get a degree.   Many were not properly prepared by parents and were feed a pile of lies in high school about this very subject.  Not enough of them utilize the community colleges to get a solid, low cost start - and to help them figure it out.  I blame parents and poor high school guidance for much of the problem with student loans and the expectation that you will make a lot of money if you go to college.  

It amazes me how a student today can graduate from high school and not understand the very basics of loans and debt  - every kid should be required to take personal finance in high school.  Credit and debt, interest, loan amortization, taxes, insurance, savings plans and budgets, the use of spreadsheets and tools - make this mandatory for high school sophomores.  Next, stop lying to high school kids about pay after college.   At the end of the day your financial compensation becomes a function of your chosen field, your degree, your actual job performance, your own career planning, your ability to communicate and work with others, your geographical location, and even a bit of luck.  

I have 4 children, 2 boys, ages 31, 29, 2 girls, ages 25, 19. 31 followed me in trade. 29 has a 2 yr degree via GI Bill, like myself. 25 is a self made entrepreneur locally, like her mother, 19 is currently 1 yr in to her quest to become a physicians assistant (PA). I know many of their friends, and your correct, I don't know their school debt status, at least, hardly any. I know of 2, maybe 3? That did what my kids did and pay as they went. I do think student loan debt scares them? I know it scares my youngest, the 2 girls.

[Pimlach]

27 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I'm a boomer/Xer (right on the line, used to consider myself a boomer but share little with that demographic these days).  I was apparently an early adopter of student loan hell.  It took a long time to pay them off (my wife still has some but they're manageable).  It was definitely a financial weight that hindered our spending and more importantly our ability to put money in savings.  Knowing what a burden it was on us, there's  no way I would wish that on someone else.  I'd much rather invest in working people by forgiving student loans than give Elon a tax break that gives him another billion.

I am a boomer.  I had to take out low interest student loans that I was able to manage because of a lot of factors.  Mostly,  I minimized what a borrowed by starting in a community college, I worked part time while going to school, and I lived a minimalist lifestyle in college (no trips to Florida, no touring Europe to find myself).  I earned a BSEE degree that started me off with good pay.  Loan payback was just part of the routine and was factored into my budget.   It was an expectation, a follow up to a commitment.  I never considered not repaying it.  The world is now different, college costs are sky high, and those days are over for a lot of reasons.  

I am not a fan of student loan forgiveness either.  At least not blanket forgiveness, but I could see some levels of forgiveness for those who work to support the underserved in healthcare and educational capacities.   In general, other tax payers should not have to pay for your decisions, your commitments, and your debt.   

I’m a proponent of more and better planning and preparation for high school students.   Better and more realistic guidance at high schools.  I’m a proponents of student loan limits (based on student progress and performance) and loans at the prime rate plus ~0.25 for the bank processing fees.  I am a proponent of better utilization of trade/vocational schools, military service, and community colleges as options after high school.  I am a proponent of state universities - many of which also make huge profits - and streamlining costs at state schools.  Private universities are making huge profits, should we look at their tax records too?  I’ll bet we can find ways to tax those endowments.   

Entrepreneurs like Musk (your example) build companies, drive innovation, create jobs, and the spin-off from their companies creates even more jobs.  Where do you think these students work?  

The student loan problem has ZERO to do with successful entrepreneurs and everything to do with people making poor decisions and a system that needs serious course correction.  Fix the root cause of the problems instead of blaming successful and unrelated entrepreneurs for doing what many of these college students dream of doing.  

[Pimlach]

53 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

In my field (aerospace and defense), we're actually in a pinch for SWQA folks.

I should not be surprised.  We laid off many over the past 10-15 years.   The improved processes were cited the reason, but it was probably just cost cutting.  
 

Isn’t Agile development supposed to embed QA in the process?  

[Scottysabres]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

Virtually everyone I know who has a degree took out student loans, and a lot of people who never managed to finish their degrees too (and most of the time the reason they didn't finish wasn't that they were lazy, it was that life happened- major illness, parent who needed care, etc.)  And really, smirking at other people's troubles is bad form.  I lost some respect for you over that remark.

If a simpleton such as myself can find away, others can as well. I happen to believe in the statement "where there's a will, there's a way". And to suggest my character is such that I enjoy others putting themselves in situations that they were not forced in to is pure gaslighting of the subject matter. My smirk isn't that they are in that position, my smirk is that I have witnessed 1st hand the sacrifices others have made around me to avoid the debt to begin with. It is possible, it's merely a matter of what the individual is willing to sacrifice. In each case I've seen, time via patience, sweat, toil and determination. To suggest I, in some way, take satisfaction in decisions of others that put them in a bad position is completely preposterous, otherwise why would I have guided my children to avoid such?

[Doohicksie]

7 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Entrepreneurs like Musk (your example) build companies, drive innovation, create jobs, and the spin-off from their companies creates even more jobs.  Where do you think these students work?  

.... while paying ***** wages and diverting the money into their own pockets when they already have more than they will ever spend.  I can respect the woman who opens a local bakery and puts several people to work but I can't respect someone who makes billions of the labor of others but doesn't pay them fairly for their contributions.

[Pimlach]

8 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

I have 4 children, 2 boys, ages 31, 29, 2 girls, ages 25, 19. 31 followed me in trade. 29 has a 2 yr degree via GI Bill, like myself. 25 is a self made entrepreneur locally, like her mother, 19 is currently 1 yr in to her quest to become a physicians assistant (PA). I know many of their friends, and your correct, I don't know their school debt status, at least, hardly any. I know of 2, maybe 3? That did what my kids did and pay as they went. I do think student loan debt scares them? I know it scares my youngest, the 2 girls.

Sound like hands on parenting.  Several of my kids friends (now in their 30’s) are still saddled with big debt. At least a PA will have resources to repay.  

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, Scottysabres said:

My smirk isn't that they are in that position, my smirk is that I have witnessed 1st hand the sacrifices others have made around me to avoid the debt to begin with.

Right.  There you go again, oozing the moral superiority of your choices.  It's off-putting.

[Weave]

15 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

I have 4 children, 2 boys, ages 31, 29, 2 girls, ages 25, 19. 31 followed me in trade. 29 has a 2 yr degree via GI Bill, like myself. 25 is a self made entrepreneur locally, like her mother, 19 is currently 1 yr in to her quest to become a physicians assistant (PA). I know many of their friends, and your correct, I don't know their school debt status, at least, hardly any. I know of 2, maybe 3? That did what my kids did and pay as they went. I do think student loan debt scares them? I know it scares my youngest, the 2 girls.

Your daughter is working her way through a pre-med program?  Interesting.  What kind of work is she doing while attending school part time?

[Scottysabres]

2 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Right.  There you go again, oozing the moral superiority of your choices.  It's off-putting.

Well, they weren't my choices, I merely was a friend/peer/parent as they were made. I am baffled as to how you think my merely stating I've witnessed it being done is moral superiority. But, to each their own o guess.

[Pimlach]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

.... while paying ***** wages and diverting the money into their own pockets when they already have more than they will ever spend.  I can respect the woman who opens a local bakery and puts several people to work but I can't respect someone who makes billions of the labor of others but doesn't pay them fairly for their contributions.

I don’t know know much about Musks pay habits.   Do his engineers and scientists at SpaceX and Tesla complain about pay?   Both companies are growing and innovating so I would assume he recruits top people that get paid very well too.  Not all jobs are the same   

 

[Scottysabres]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

Your daughter is working her way through a pre-med program?  Interesting.  What kind of work is she doing while attending school part time?

She does door dash and works 4 days for 24 hrs at a local day care.

[MattPie]

36 minutes ago, Marvin said:

There seems to be an uptick in software QA needs.  The doubling time for the number of developers is 5 years, so, if the companies have any brains, the need for software QA should go up commensurately.

 

16 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I should not be surprised.  We laid off many over the past 10-15 years.   The improved processes were cited the reason, but it was probably just cost cutting.  
 

Isn’t Agile development supposed to embed QA in the process?  

Kinda. Traditional waterfall and Agile aren't that different: build, test, rework, and pass. The difference is Agile "demands" short time frames, like a few weeks. Waterfall implements the same steps, but people tend to implement waterfall over time frames (months or years) that it was never intended to be used. It doesn't work well and needs a *ton* of QA to get this gigantic changes to work together after long development. The Agile ideal is you make smaller changes quickly so there's less integration. It can still bite you of course, but hopefully you get bitten in your test environment before you get close to prod.

The other really cool concept if software is Test-Driven Development. You write your tests with the expected results first, and then develop the software. It doesn't cure all ills, but it forces the developer to verify things. Modern software tooling has testing built-in to make it easier, when you compile the software it can run the tests at the same time and tell you if anything failed.

4 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

Well, they weren't my choices, I merely was a friend/peer/parent as they were made. I am baffled as to how you think my merely stating I've witnessed it being done is moral superiority. But, to each their own o guess.

You do come across as smug, whether intended or not. Definitely has the "I did it, I can't imagine why someone else might not be able to do it the same way." vibe to it.

14 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

She does door dash and works 4 days for 24 hrs at a local day care.

Interesting, does she pay her own car maintenance? Door dash and the other gig things like that seem to fall apart when you factor running costs in.

[Scottysabres]

3 minutes ago, MattPie said:

You do come across as smug, whether intended or not. Definitely has the "I did it, I can't imagine why someone else might not be able to do it the same way." vibe to it.

Interesting, does she pay her own car maintenance? Door dash and the other gig things like that seem to fall apart when you factor running costs in.

For the first comment, I pointed out at the start my mentor did it, and it took him years. My family is hardly wealthy, loans aren't necessarily an option. I stated it can be done, and it can, unless your stating factually it can't, even though I've factually seen it done, through other avenues than debt. Is that what you are implying here?

As for my youngest, she's grounded in reality, her mother and I taught her that. She's fully aware she won't see her degree, which is 6 yr minimum, until she's 30 to 32 yrs old. We sit down with our kids, speak with them, listen to them, and attempt to give options for their goals.

Yes; she pays for her own vehicle maintenance, she bought her own car at 17. While I didn't agree with the vehicle choice, it was hers to make so I respect that.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

I'm a boomer/Xer (right on the line, used to consider myself a boomer but share little with that demographic these days).  I was apparently an early adopter of student loan hell.  It took a long time to pay them off (my wife still has some but they're manageable).  It was definitely a financial weight that hindered our spending and more importantly our ability to put money in savings.  Knowing what a burden it was on us, there's  no way I would wish that on i someone else.  I'd much rather invest in working people by forgiving student loans than give Elon a tax break that gives him another billion.

I took off the RED X since I understand your comments better now, but I am still not agreeing with a blanket student loan forgiveness program - like the kind I hear from Biden.  I do support helping those who work to support underserved communities (health care, educators, social workers, etc.) because these jobs are critical to improving the welfare of our society in general, and these jobs are not typically high paying ones either.  

Edited July 27, 2023 by Pimlach