Defense remake underway! Who is moving on?

[dudacek]

38 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He are a couple of states about Johnson and Clifton that should help clarify why their here.

PK time:  Clifton played 100 minutes on the PK last year.  That was 5th on the Bruins D (they took a lot of penalties), but about the same amount of time Dahlin spent on the PK.  

Clifton's GP has increased each year in the NHL starting at 19, then 31, 44, 60, and 78 last year.  He also had his best scoring season with career highs in goals (5) assists (18) and pts (23).  Those stats would have placed him 3rd in pts and assists and 2nd in goals on the Sabres.  This was accomplished on Boston's 3rd pair who zero PP time.  His 120 blocked shots would have been second behind Dahlin's 132.  Two not-great stats are his 60 PIMS (only Dahlin's 96 were more on the Sabres) and his 47 giveaways (but those are still less than Power and Dahlin).

Erik Johnson: Did you realize EJ only had 12 penalty minutes last season?  For a team as disciplined as the Sabres in not taking penalties (3rd least in the NHL), that's a nice addition.  Stillman has 13 in 18 games and Clague 24 in 33 games.  He also killed 128 minutes of penalties for the Avs (3rd on the Avs).  Johnson also lead the Avs in hits (121) was 3rd in blocks (102) and only had 17 giveaways for the season.  

All in all, we are getting 2 guys who hit, block shots, kill penalties and are defensively responsible.  

I think it’s weird that the Sabres draft Benson and we hear a chorus of “too small and soft, can’t win in the playoffs.”

Yet when we sign a 6’4” 225-pound Stanley Cup winning mountain, and the most abrasive defenceman on the Bruins, after trading for Greenway and Stillman at the deadline to replace Hinostroza and Bryson we get crickets.

People see what they want to see 🤷

Edited July 3, 2023 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think it’s weird that the Sabres draft Benson and we hear a chorus of “too small and soft, can’t win in the playoffs.”

Yet when we sign a 6’4” 225-pound Stanley Cup winning mountain, and the most abrasive defenceman on the Bruins, after trading for Greenway and Stillman at the deadline to replace Hinostroza and Bryson we get crickets.

People see what they want to see 🤷

Not sure what you are getting at.  There are crickets because we watched our terrible bottom 3 and then watched the playoffs and saw that we needed to be better defensively, bigger and harder to play against.  We also saw how terrible our PK was with the players we had.  Here are two upgrades in all areas.  

I also don't remember any posts here that didn't like the Benson pick.  He is small, but the draftniks, like me, never thought a player of his skill would fall to us. I'm thrilled to have Benson. 

I personally didn't like the Stillman trade because I don't think Stillman is a good player.  I'm thrilled right now that he is down to 8th on the depth chart.  

Edited July 3, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[IvanPutski]

The Polish Hammer's pre-preseason prediction:

Top Pair - Dahlin and Mule

Middle Pair - Power and Clifton

Third Pair - Johnson and Johnson

Extras - Joker, Boosh, Stillman

[LGR4GM]

On 7/2/2023 at 9:26 PM, dudacek said:

I think it’s weird that the Sabres draft Benson and we hear a chorus of “too small and soft, can’t win in the playoffs.”

Yet when we sign a 6’4” 225-pound Stanley Cup winning mountain, and the most abrasive defenceman on the Bruins, after trading for Greenway and Stillman at the deadline to replace Hinostroza and Bryson we get crickets.

People see what they want to see 🤷

Funny thing is Benson is very abrasive. More so than Savoie.

[Curt]

12 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Funny thing is Benson is very abrasive. More so than Savoie.

I see some of Skinner in Benson’s dogged, quick puck pressure that sometimes creates turnovers.

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

I see some of Skinner in Benson’s dogged, quick puck pressure that sometimes creates turnovers.

I wonder if that hurt him in the draft as well as his size?  Skinner plays a somewhat unconventional style.  We've seen that not all coaches know what to do with him, but with the right coach he's a dynamic scorer with a good overall game.  I wonder how many GMs looked at Benson and saw the talent, but didn't like the style he plays.

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I wonder if that hurt him in the draft as well as his size?  Skinner plays a somewhat unconventional style.  We've seen that not all coaches know what to do with him, but with the right coach he's a dynamic scorer with a good overall game.  I wonder how many GMs looked at Benson and saw the talent, but didn't like the style he plays.

Not saying you're wrong, but I've never seen this reported.

On the contrary, he is almost universally praised for his hockey IQ, his effort, and for 'playing the game the right way'.

I think he dropped for the usual reasons: skepticism as to whether he's big enough, or fast enough to play the game he does at the NHL level.

[French Collection]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I wonder if that hurt him in the draft as well as his size?  Skinner plays a somewhat unconventional style.  We've seen that not all coaches know what to do with him, but with the right coach he's a dynamic scorer with a good overall game.  I wonder how many GMs looked at Benson and saw the talent, but didn't like the style he plays.

I think the dominoes falling for teams grabbing D was a factor. Reinbacher, Simashev and Willander were behind him on most mocks/lists. Size (But) and position (Danielson) were  the two final pieces that made him fall to the Sabres. Both of those guys were far behind Benson on consensus lists.

He is regarded as a strong defensive player so he’s got that on Skinner right from the get go. His game is more playmaking than scoring which is the opposite of Skinner.

If Benson was 2 inches taller and a C he might have gone in the top 5 imho.

Skinner has improved his passing and defense, which helped him have a great season.

 

[Curt]

25 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I wonder if that hurt him in the draft as well as his size?  Skinner plays a somewhat unconventional style.  We've seen that not all coaches know what to do with him, but with the right coach he's a dynamic scorer with a good overall game.  I wonder how many GMs looked at Benson and saw the talent, but didn't like the style he plays.

I don’t know that the overall style of Skinner and Benson is very similar, but specifically that part of Skinner’s game where he sometimes goes all out pest pressure to try to force a turnover in the offensive zone, Benson does that, and also the 10-2, skating technique that they both pull out from time to time.

Overall, I would say that Benson is more diligent in getting back on the backcheck and overall defensive play.  Also their offensive games are very different.  Benson is a lot more of a puck possession playmaker, while we know Skinner is more of an opportunistic goal poacher.

[Dr. Who]

The fella who is possibly related to KA or possibly a scout or just a fake insider posted the following at that wretched Hockeybuzz site:

"Another Defenseman is coming + more .

They're not playing around this year"

He sort of drives by and drops these bits and disappears. We'll see if it happens. If they are adding a top 4D to what they've already done, that would be pretty impressive. The + more could be anything, but I wouldn't assume that means goalie. 

 

[Buffalonill]

5 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

The fella who is possibly related to KA or possibly a scout or just a fake insider posted the following at that wretched Hockeybuzz site:

"Another Defenseman is coming + more .

They're not playing around this year"

He sort of drives by and drops these bits and disappears. We'll see if it happens. If they are adding a top 4D to what they've already done, that would be pretty impressive. The + more could be anything, but I wouldn't assume that means goalie. 

 

I also read that he said the bottom paring would be re-done before Free agency.

So maybe he's onto something "hopefully " "cross fingers " 

[Pimlach]

9 hours ago, IvanPutski said:

The Polish Hammer's pre-preseason prediction:

Top Pair - Dahlin and Mule

Middle Pair - Power and Clifton

Third Pair - Johnson and Johnson

Extras - Joker, Boosh, Stillman

They likely will not carrying 9 on the roster. Especially with Quinn on IR. 
 

Ryan Johnson will start in Rochester and if he performs well  he will get a late season call up.  

[dudacek]

5 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

The fella who is possibly related to KA or possibly a scout or just a fake insider posted the following at that wretched Hockeybuzz site:

"Another Defenseman is coming + more .

They're not playing around this year"

 

was that before or after the Clague announcement?

 

 

 

😜

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

They likely will not carrying 9 on the roster. Especially with Quinn on IR. 
 

Ryan Johnson will start in Rochester and if he performs well  he will get a late season call up.  

They absolutely aren't carrying 9 D on the roster, barring injuries of course.

It's possible after the trade deadline but wouldn't expect it then either.  They only get 4 callups until the Amerks season is done and with the D and young F's they're going to have they should have another long run in the spring so those 4 callups need to last a long time.

[shrader]

I do think they’ll put Johnson in a position where he can earn a mid-season call up. I’m slightly intrigued there. 
 

And can they add any other Johnsons that played D at Minnesota just to confuse me even more?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Comparison 74/75 Sabres to 22/23 Sabres.  What I remember about the 74/75 team was how big and strong, but offensively capable that D squad was.  I didn't realize how young they were.  Hajt, Carriere, Fogolin, and Schoenfeld were Sabres draftees. Korab and Guevremont came in trade.  22/23 seems back to the future.  This may be the biggest Sabres D group ever, but the size, skating, and roles remind me of the first Cup contender.  There are 3 draftees, and 3 UFAs signees.

74/75

Korab 6'3 218 (age 25) - 12+44=56

Guevremont 6'2 202 (23) - 7+25=32

Hajt 6'3 205 (22) - 3+26=29

Carriere 6'1 204 (22) - 1+11=12

Schoenfled 6'2 206 (21) - 1+19=20

Fogolin 6'0 200 (19) - 2+2=4

22/23 (points from last year)

Dahlin 6'3 202 (23) - 15+58=73

Power 6'6 218 (21) - 4+31=35

Lyubushkin 6'2 200 (29) - 2+12=14

Samuelsson 6'4 231 (23) - 2+8=10

Johnson 6'4 225 (35) -  0+8=8

Clifton 5'11 190 (28) - 5+18=23

 

 

[JohnC]

On 7/2/2023 at 9:32 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Not sure what you are getting at.  There are crickets because we watched our terrible bottom 3 and then watched the playoffs and saw that we needed to be better defensively, bigger and harder to play against.  We also saw how terrible our PK was with the players we had.  Here are two upgrades in all areas.  

I also don't remember any posts here that didn't like the Benson pick.  He is small, but the draftniks, like me, never thought a player of his skill would fall to us. I'm thrilled to have Benson. 

I personally didn't like the Stillman trade because I don't think Stillman is a good player.  I'm thrilled right now that he is down to 8th on the depth chart.  

I think that you are getting too fixated on Stillman. As someone else said we got a player who is on the team for a player who was unlikely ever to make the team. I'll make that swap any day. Incremental improvement is better than no improvement. Stillman is likely to be a fourth pairing player. That's exactly where he belongs. As you and others point out both Johnson and Clifton should help to improve the PK, a major vulnerability for this team. So, both of those players address a couple of major defensive issues that were apparent last year.  Most contributors here are advocating for the GM to be bolder in dealing for another higher-level defenseman such as Hanifan or Pesce. I wouldn't bet on it happening because I believe that the coach has a higher opinion of Joki than most people have here.

[GASabresIUFAN]

27 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I think that you are getting too fixated on Stillman. As someone else said we got a player who is on the team for a player who was unlikely ever to make the team. I'll make that swap any day. Incremental improvement is better than no improvement. Stillman is likely to be a fourth pairing player. That's exactly where he belongs. As you and others point out both Johnson and Clifton should help to improve the PK, a major vulnerability for this team. So, both of those players address a couple of major defensive issues that were apparent last year.  Most contributors here are advocating for the GM to be bolder in dealing for another higher-level defenseman such as Hanifan or Pesce. I wouldn't bet on it happening because I believe that the coach has a higher opinion of Joki than most people have here.

It's expectations and hopium.  I hoped for a real upgrade on defense and instead, we acquired Stillman.  It was a wasted opportunity.  A better upgrade may have gotten us into the playoffs.  That's all water under the bridge at this point.  

I am rapidly learning that KA does not like the prices for the Chychrun and Pesce of the world.  He has kicked the tires and came up unwilling to part with key pieces of his pipeline. I get that. He has a young team with a deep pipeline and wants to build from within.   At some point, however, the pipeline won't give you what you need and he will have to do what Stl did and go get the missing piece or two even it costs you a Östlund, Rosen.  

That said, I really like what KA added on defense.  Johnson is the type of player, a veteran leader who can still play, that we've needed on the backend for two years.  Clifton is not quite the proven 4 Pesce would have been, but I think this is a very reasonable gamble given his progression over the last 5 years.  As I've said before, KA is playing moneypuck and hopefully it works.

What I don't like is not upgrading the non-Levi goalies.  I think this is an opportunity to spend some capital.  With a proven goaltender and the D upgrades, this team could be a beast.  Without it, it's still possible, but unlikely.

With the improved goaltending, the question for the season will be, given that other teams in the East, like Det, upgraded on paper, will just adding defense be enough to get beyond just sneaking into the playoffs?  Honestly, I'm not sure.  

Edited July 5, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[RochesterExpat]

Honest question, but what makes people so convinced Johnson is ready for the NHL this season?

I am confident in his work ethic and seriousness toward the game based on quite literally every interview about the kid I can find, but do we really expect him to make the leap this year? And, on that note, does it really benefit him any from playing third pairing minutes in the NHL as opposed to getting top minutes in the AHL if he’s not a serious improvement over the player he is replacing?

Similarly, why is no one talking about Novikov? To me, if we’re talking about a mid-season rookie call up to play 3rd pair, Novikov has the edge on Johnson. Johnson has the higher ceiling, but Novikov’s floor is higher. It just depends on how his game translates to NA.

Neither are slide candidates so that doesn’t influence the decision either.

But, more importantly, are Johnson or Novikov better as it stands right now than Stillman, Clague or even Davies? Or is that just optimistic bias toward our own prospects?

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

hoped for a real upgrade on defense and instead, we acquired Stillman. 

Yeah this one was disappointing. And I say that admitting I like Stillman as a 7th D that a coach can rotate in when his presence matches well against the opposing roster. His addition didn’t make a ton of sense as far as moving the bar—something Buffalo needed to do.

[nfreeman]

3 minutes ago, RochesterExpat said:

Honest question, but what makes people so convinced Johnson is ready for the NHL this season?

I am confident in his work ethic and seriousness toward the game based on quite literally every interview about the kid I can find, but do we really expect him to make the leap this year? And, on that note, does it really benefit him any from playing third pairing minutes in the NHL as opposed to getting top minutes in the AHL if he’s not a serious improvement over the player he is replacing?

Similarly, why is no one talking about Novikov? To me, if we’re talking about a mid-season rookie call up to play 3rd pair, Novikov has the edge on Johnson. Johnson has the higher ceiling, but Novikov’s floor is higher. It just depends on how his game translates to NA.

Neither are slide candidates so that doesn’t influence the decision either.

But, more importantly, are Johnson or Novikov better as it stands right now than Stillman, Clague or even Davies? Or is that just optimistic bias toward our own prospects?

 

Speaking only for myself, I do not expect Johnson or Novikov to have more than a cup of coffee in the NHL this year.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

Speaking only for myself, I do not expect Johnson or Novikov to have more than a cup of coffee in the NHL this year.

Once we see them in Rochester, we'll get a much better idea of their preparedness.  My guess is both are relatively close.

[thewookie1]

37 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Speaking only for myself, I do not expect Johnson or Novikov to have more than a cup of coffee in the NHL this year.

I just want a couple games so we can have a Johnson&Johnson D-pair

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, RochesterExpat said:

Honest question, but what makes people so convinced Johnson is ready for the NHL this season?

I am confident in his work ethic and seriousness toward the game based on quite literally every interview about the kid I can find, but do we really expect him to make the leap this year? And, on that note, does it really benefit him any from playing third pairing minutes in the NHL as opposed to getting top minutes in the AHL if he’s not a serious improvement over the player he is replacing?

Similarly, why is no one talking about Novikov? To me, if we’re talking about a mid-season rookie call up to play 3rd pair, Novikov has the edge on Johnson. Johnson has the higher ceiling, but Novikov’s floor is higher. It just depends on how his game translates to NA.

Neither are slide candidates so that doesn’t influence the decision either.

But, more importantly, are Johnson or Novikov better as it stands right now than Stillman, Clague or even Davies? Or is that just optimistic bias toward our own prospects?

Yeah this one was disappointing. And I say that admitting I like Stillman as a 7th D that a coach can rotate in when his presence matches well against the opposing roster. His addition didn’t make a ton of sense as far as moving the bar—something Buffalo needed to do.

I love Novikov. I think with the defensive depth in Buffalo now both Ryan and Nikita will be in Rochester for the majority or all of the year. Next year they will have chances to join the Sabres depending on what they do with Lybushkin and Erik Johnson.

[RochesterExpat]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I love Novikov. I think with the defensive depth in Buffalo now both Ryan and Nikita will be in Rochester for the majority or all of the year. Next year they will have chances to join the Sabres depending on what they do with Lybushkin and Erik Johnson.

This is what I expect as well, but I see a lot of references (especially on Reddit) to Johnson Jr. being a Sabre this season. I thought it odd since at no point over the last year did I think he was going to be an immediately impactful player. I wanted to make sure I wasn't totally off-base. Don't get me wrong, I'd absolutely love it if he made the team this season because it means we're only improving, but I just don't see it happening.

I think part of the issue is he played with Brock Faber and Jackson LaCombe who will almost certainly see NHL time next season. Faber is virtually guaranteed a roster spot this season in Minnesota due to the salary cap (they have $7.5m and still need to sign Gustavsson and three forwards). LaCombe is similarly likely to get a crack at the Ducks' roster as the team only has four defensemen signed who played exclusively in the NHL last season (that's counting Drysdale's QO as a signing). One of those signed players is Robert Hägg so we're not exactly talking about an elite D-core. A fifth, Colton White, played the majority of the season in Anaheim, but still played some in San Diego. Of course, the Ducks also have cap space to make moves if they want to. But, as it stands now, LaCombe is likely to play in the NHL.

[mjd1001]

Honestly, I just want 3rd pair D-guys who are good enough to keep Dahlins ice time down a couple minutes a game (to about 23) and Powers ice time down to about 21 minutes per game.

Having 2 great D-men so at least one of them can be on the ice for the majority of the games in the playoffs may be more important than in the regular season. Have a guy back there who can get to and move the puck out of your zone will be very valuable in playoff hockey.

While you need to have your stars play a lot to GET you to the playoffs, once you get there those guys need to be somewhat rested AND fully healthy.