2023 NHL Summer Trade Thread

[Radar]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Do you think it is a potential downside if Kevyn consistently signs players to "team friendly" contracts?  On the one hand, he's better able to keep the team together, but on the other, at some point these players (and the NHLPA) will start to say he's undervaluing assets and get NHLPA action against him or just kind of start feel like they're Kevyn's patsies and become discontented.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are anywhere other than professional sports a contract is a contract. Of all areas of undervalued sports is a ways down my list. School teachers, first responders ect. are more undervalued. Of course athletes aren't paid by our taxes........oh wait,  they are but more indirectly.

 

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, ddaryl said:

OR Owen can see how the Sabres Organization treats its players overall (Dahlin), see's the uptick of the franchise and wants to continue to be apart of that knowing after his bridge deal he'll get another fat raise.

Kevyn is building a culture and players seem to want to stay and are willing to sign for a little less to be apart of this.

Not sure if I'm off on the point that was trying to be made, but having players want to play here is a nice change.... Hopefully building the team, retaining our own will form bonds between the players that will make it hard for them to want to leave...

Basically Kevyn is instituting a culture of demanding a Hometown Discount from his best players.

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Do you think it is a potential downside if Kevyn consistently signs players to "team friendly" contracts?  On the one hand, he's better able to keep the team together, but on the other, at some point these players (and the NHLPA) will start to say he's undervaluing assets and get NHLPA action against him or just kind of start feel like they're Kevyn's patsies and become discontented.

Thoughts?

What NHLPA action would they take? Honestly asking how the NHLPA would respond to a player in year 3 of his guaranteed 50million dollar deal coming in and saying "hey I feel undervalued and want you to..." what? 

4 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Basically Kevyn is instituting a culture of demanding a Hometown Discount from his best players.

And if the players don't like it they can sign elsewhere, file for arbitration, hold out, demand a trade. Also Tage and Cozens didn't necessarily take a forced discount, Adams signed them before their respective blow up seasons. Cozens was signed before his 68pt season and Tage signed before his 94pt season. Don't see how Adams demanded a home town discount on them. 

[MISabresFan]

I am tired of hearing that Steve Y did it again, building a contender..like Tamp Bay.

 

He made similar moves last year and looked where they ended up.  I believe KA will get there before SY.

[inkman]

40 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

What NHLPA action would they take? Honestly asking how the NHLPA would respond to a player in year 3 of his guaranteed 50million dollar deal coming in and saying "hey I feel undervalued and want you to..." what? 

And if the players don't like it they can sign elsewhere, file for arbitration, hold out, demand a trade. Also Tage and Cozens didn't necessarily take a forced discount, Adams signed them before their respective blow up seasons. Cozens was signed before his 68pt season and Tage signed before his 94pt season. Don't see how Adams demanded a home town discount on them. 

GMKA has benefitted having faith in his players and signing them early.  If he’s using his large highly reputed analytics team to give him the deets on his players before they blow up to get a discount, I’d say TPs money has been well spent on the nerds.  

[shrader]

10 minutes ago, MISabresFan said:

I am tired of hearing that Steve Y did it again, building a contender..like Tamp Bay.

 

He made similar moves last year and looked where they ended up.  I believe KA will get there before SY.

And based on your username, I'm guessing you are probably well aware of how a state income tax makes it a bit harder to convince someone to sign in Detroit for a slightly more team friendly salary.

[Taro T]

52 minutes ago, MISabresFan said:

I am tired of hearing that Steve Y did it again, building a contender..like Tamp Bay.

 

He made similar moves last year and looked where they ended up.  I believe KA will get there before SY.

Well, and this is obviously just posturing and setting expectations, but Yzerman himself is on record as saying the Sabres are further ahead in their rebuild than his Wings are.

[ddaryl]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Basically Kevyn is instituting a culture of demanding a Hometown Discount from his best players.

Then we view the glass of water differently. Players are willing to sign here on a hometown discount.... in hindsight Tage and Cozens were signed ahead of major breakout seasons... I'm sure Kevin is not demanding a thing. You can choose to sign or you can bail. The offers on the table. Haven't heard one player complain about it ...yet.

Edited July 11, 2023 by ddaryl

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Basically Kevyn is instituting a culture of demanding a Hometown Discount from his best players.

The GM is not demanding a "hometown" discount from the players. That's not an accurate depiction of the contract signings from much of the core. The players who have signed agreed to get their contracts reworked sooner and are willing to take less for immediate guaranteed money that is more than their current contract. Dahlin took a different approach than some of his teammates. He took a bridge deal rather than sign an extended contract. The player and his agent calculated that waiting longer to sign a longer term deal will prove to be more financially beneficial as the market-rate for players of his caliber increases. When Eichel was here he got a long-term extension. If he would have waited and become the player that he is now, he would actually be paid more now. The GM was willing to give an extension to Samuelsson sooner rather than later because the organization felt that in the not-too-distant future he would project to be a higher cost player if it signed him at a later time. Both sides in the bargaining setting make their own calculations for what is best for their own respective needs. 

[MattPie]

53 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The GM is not demanding a "hometown" discount from the players. That's not an accurate depiction of the contract signings from much of the core. The players who have signed agreed to get their contracts reworked sooner and are willing to take less for immediate guaranteed money that is more than their current contract. Dahlin took a different approach than some of his teammates. He took a bridge deal rather than sign an extended contract. The player and his agent calculated that waiting longer to sign a longer term deal will prove to be more financially beneficial as the market-rate for players of his caliber increases. When Eichel was here he got a long-term extension. If he would have waited and become the player that he is now, he would actually be paid more now. The GM was willing to give an extension to Samuelsson sooner rather than later because the organization felt that in the not-too-distant future he would project to be a higher cost player if it signed him at a later time. Both sides in the bargaining setting make their own calculations for what is best for their own respective needs. 

To be fair, given Dahlin's play at the time of his bridge, I'm not sure if the team would have even offered one. He was not looking like a sure-thing D back then.

[PerreaultForever]

13 hours ago, dudacek said:

Doesn't seem like you are responding to my point directly.

There are several guys 'bigger' than Dahlin and a few bigger than Tuch and Thompson. How many of them are big AND talented in the way those three are?

None of the guys you listed come anywhere close.

Lots of teams have a Tuch? I found just four NHL forwards who are 6'4" 220 pounds and scored even 40 points. Tuch had 79! (For the record 2 of those 4 are Sabres)

The Sabres defence is big; it's not arguable: Power 6'6" 220, Samuelsson 6'4 230, Johnson 6'4" 225, Dahlin 6'3, 215, Lyubushkin 6'2", 200 —these are big men.

I get it, you have a perception: "I wish the Sabres were meaner and other teams were scared of us" and your entire argument revolves around that. Because it's a perception, it's impossible to quantify, so there's no point debating it further.

But the Sabres are not a small team. And their best players are huge.

Those are facts.

I'm not responding indirectly but rather trying to focus in on what "big" means. How does "big" translate to wins. It doesn't matter how "big" you are if you don';t play "big". 

One example to illustrate my point. Owen Power 6'6 Connor Clifton 5'10. Which guy hits more and plays a heavier game that opponents have to respect/fear?  Big is only big if you play big and use the big. 

I am not arguing that we have gotten bigger (as stated, we are NHL average now as a whole, 6'1" overall) but so far, we do not play big . 

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Since you specifically mentioned Seattle...

Borgen 6'3 - Rasmus Dahlin 6'3"

Dumolin 6'4 - Mattias Samuelsson 6'4"

Larrsen 6'3 - E Johnson 6'4"

Megna 6'6 - Owen Power 6'6'

Oleksiak at 6'7 - guess you got me there? Next would be 6'2" Lyubushkin 

So we literally match every single one of their guys except Oleksiak. I find it baffling you'll use Oleksiak as the "how many have him!" Argument when Power is better and 1" shorter and at forward the same love of height doesn't get applied to Tage Thompson who no one else has. 

Oleksiak best nhl season was last year at 25pts. Owen Power has 35 as a rookie. 

Oleksiak isn't there to score goals so why you'd quote scoring stats on this is very self serving for your point isn't it.

I only said "how many have those" because he said (about Dahlin) how many have one of those, and the discussion was about size. 

Lastly, have I said anywhere that the Sabres are small? NO. I said they do not play big. They are not small. As a team they are average, with some big guys averaging out with the smaller ones. 

[JohnC]

41 minutes ago, MattPie said:

To be fair, given Dahlin's play at the time of his bridge, I'm not sure if the team would have even offered one. He was not looking like a sure-thing D back then.

When Krueger is your coach it's not a surprise that "sure things" get downgraded to being "not sure things".

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not responding indirectly but rather trying to focus in on what "big" means. How does "big" translate to wins. It doesn't matter how "big" you are if you don';t play "big". 

One example to illustrate my point. Owen Power 6'6 Connor Clifton 5'10. Which guy hits more and plays a heavier game that opponents have to respect/fear?  Big is only big if you play big and use the big. 

I am not arguing that we have gotten bigger (as stated, we are NHL average now as a whole, 6'1" overall) but so far, we do not play big . 

To the bolded, to an extent that's correct, but you can play big (Nolan's '95-'96 team played very big, not too much of a stretch to say that was the toughest Sabres team ever assembled) and still not play well (3rd worst in their conference; 7th worst overall).  That '96-'97 was smaller but still played hard and was more skilled than the previous year's version and actually won its division.

IMHO it doesn't matter how big you play if you have no skill.  The trick is to find guys that can do both - play big and skilled and fill in the pieces around them with primarily skilled guys that don't play with fear.  You can be small and tenatious and as long as you don't play with fear you can be part of the answer for putting teams like the Bruins back on their heels.

[LGR4GM]

14 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not responding indirectly but rather trying to focus in on what "big" means. How does "big" translate to wins. It doesn't matter how "big" you are if you don';t play "big". 

One example to illustrate my point. Owen Power 6'6 Connor Clifton 5'10. Which guy hits more and plays a heavier game that opponents have to respect/fear?  Big is only big if you play big and use the big. 

I am not arguing that we have gotten bigger (as stated, we are NHL average now as a whole, 6'1" overall) but so far, we do not play big . 

 

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Oleksiak isn't there to score goals so why you'd quote scoring stats on this is very self serving for your point isn't it.

I only said "how many have those" because he said (about Dahlin) how many have one of those, and the discussion was about size. 

Lastly, have I said anywhere that the Sabres are small? NO. I said they do not play big. They are not small. As a team they are average, with some big guys averaging out with the smaller ones. 

Whats the point of even talking to you? You claim all this nonsense about how you gotta use your size and it helps you win and I show you that Dahlin and Power, 2 players you claim don't use their size, vastly outperform all these other big players you list and this is your response. What a waste of time and energy. 

Also the Sabres literally match up with EVERY SINGLE Kraken player except 1... I mean sure I guess that means we should be afraid of them or something. Actually I am not even clear what point you are making using Seattle. Mine was that 2 of our defenders almost singlehandedly outproduced 5 of theirs. 

[PerreaultForever]

8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

To the bolded, to an extent that's correct, but you can play big (Nolan's '95-'96 team played very big, not too much of a stretch to say that was the toughest Sabres team ever assembled) and still not play well (3rd worst in their conference; 7th worst overall).  That '96-'97 was smaller but still played hard and was more skilled than the previous year's version and actually won its division.

IMHO it doesn't matter how big you play if you have no skill.  The trick is to find guys that can do both - play big and skilled and fill in the pieces around them with primarily skilled guys that don't play with fear.  You can be small and tenatious and as long as you don't play with fear you can be part of the answer for putting teams like the Bruins back on their heels.

Oh ya definitely. I wouldn't argue against that at all. Nolan's team was kind of similar to what the Flyers are now (and they will be bad). Tons of toughness but very little skill. You need both, or the luxury of having guys that are both (which is rarer). 

This is why my problem with the Sabres build isn't with Thompson or Cozens or Dahlin or any of the higher end talent (except maybe Skinner who I think I will always have some issues with but that's an aside). It's with the bottom end of the line up. I'm not sure what our 3rd line is and our 4th line is just guys who aren't good enough to play higher up the line up. I think we will have problems when the "talent" goes up against the toughness. We shall see, but on paper I don't see it going well. As I've said, I hope I'm wrong.

[PerreaultForever]

10 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

 

Whats the point of even talking to you? You claim all this nonsense about how you gotta use your size and it helps you win and I show you that Dahlin and Power, 2 players you claim don't use their size, vastly outperform all these other big players you list and this is your response. What a waste of time and energy. 

Also the Sabres literally match up with EVERY SINGLE Kraken player except 1... I mean sure I guess that means we should be afraid of them or something. Actually I am not even clear what point you are making using Seattle. Mine was that 2 of our defenders almost singlehandedly outproduced 5 of theirs. 

How on earth is a discussion about size related to a discussion of point production???????????????????????

Where are the Sabres on here?

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask?q=nhl+hits+leaders+2022-2023

I see some Seattle though. 

and looking at league wide........

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask?q=nhl+hits+leaders+by+team+2022-2023

Oh there's the Sabres, dead last. 

AND before you say hits don't matter, no, they are not the be all and end all and there's far more to everything and that is obvious, but it's a real and telling stat and it's far more relevant than points production in a discussion about size. 

[LGR4GM]

10 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

How on earth is a discussion about size related to a discussion of point production???????????????????????

Where are the Sabres on here?

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask?q=nhl+hits+leaders+2022-2023

I see some Seattle though. 

and looking at league wide........

https://www.statmuse.com/nhl/ask?q=nhl+hits+leaders+by+team+2022-2023

Oh there's the Sabres, dead last. 

AND before you say hits don't matter, no, they are not the be all and end all and there's far more to everything and that is obvious, but it's a real and telling stat and it's far more relevant than points production in a discussion about size. 

What does hits tell you?

Also wait until you learn about how inconsistently league wide hits are awarded. 

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

How on earth is a discussion about size related to a discussion of point production???????????????????????

but it's a real and telling stat and it's far more relevant than points production in a discussion about size. 

Lmfao

Hey kids! Don't score just get hits. what a master class in being wrong about size and what it means. Guess all those guys with more hits than Dahlin are better. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not responding indirectly but rather trying to focus in on what "big" means. How does "big" translate to wins. It doesn't matter how "big" you are if you don';t play "big". 

One example to illustrate my point. Owen Power 6'6 Connor Clifton 5'10. Which guy hits more and plays a heavier game that opponents have to respect/fear?  Big is only big if you play big and use the big. 

I am not arguing that we have gotten bigger (as stated, we are NHL average now as a whole, 6'1" overall) but so far, we do not play big . 

Might make for better conversations if you substituted “battle” or “intimidation” or “abrasiveness”, or whatever word fits best, instead of “size”.

“Hard to play against” is a bad one too. Thompson and Tuch aren’t abrasive, but they are very hard to play against (and kind of intimidating) because of their mix of size and skill allows them to dominate matchups and make opponents look bad.

And for the record, I think Owen Power is way harder to play against than Connor Clifton, and way more deserving of an opponent’s fear, for the exact reasons I state above. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by dudacek

[Crusader1969]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

What NHLPA action would they take? Honestly asking how the NHLPA would respond to a player in year 3 of his guaranteed 50million dollar deal coming in and saying "hey I feel undervalued and want you to..." what? 

And if the players don't like it they can sign elsewhere, file for arbitration, hold out, demand a trade. Also Tage and Cozens didn't necessarily take a forced discount, Adams signed them before their respective blow up seasons. Cozens was signed before his 68pt season and Tage signed before his 94pt season. Don't see how Adams demanded a home town discount on them. 

Let’s not forget that most media in Toronto laughed at the Sabres when they signed Tage.  

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Lmfao

Hey kids! Don't score just get hits. what a master class in being wrong about size and what it means. Guess all those guys with more hits than Dahlin are better. 

Oh yes, Florida got to the final because of their high skill and finesse, and Vegas won it because they were small. 

 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Might make for better conversations if you substituted “battle” or “intimidation” or “abrasiveness”, or whatever word fits best, instead of “size”.

“Hard to play against” is a bad one too. Thompson and Tuch aren’t abrasive, but they are very hard to play against (and kind of intimidating) because of their mix of size and skill allows them to dominate matchups and make opponents look bad.

And for the record, I think Owen Power is way harder to play against than Connor Clifton, and way more deserving of an opponent’s fear, for the exact reasons I state above. 

This is all apples and oranges. If your argument is simply that some of the Sabres star players are big in size we agree. And yes, some of them are hard to play against or hard to defend, that's partly why they are star players. We don't disagree there at all. 

But if your argument is that the Sabres, as a team, are hard to play against, it is completely wrong. No opposing team has ever said that in recent times. 

[Huckleberry]

9 hours ago, MISabresFan said:

I am tired of hearing that Steve Y did it again, building a contender..like Tamp Bay.

 

He made similar moves last year and looked where they ended up.  I believe KA will get there before SY.

He changed a 20 goal score for a 30 goal scorer that is worse in defense.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

. No opposing team has ever said that in recent times. 

Certainly not prior to last year, but I think that’s changing and hopefully that trend continues.

My bellwether has been the Florida teams. I think that we have been an absolute joke to Florida and Tampa. They used to just coast, then would turn up the skill or the nasty and embarrass us. Hated playing them because of it.

That stopped this year. They tried, but we pushed right back. The games were tight and the wins had to be earned.

We may not have many players who physically scare the ***** out of you, but the number of players who you would describe as soft and and/or small has dropped considerably:

Bjork, Hinostroza, Reinhart, Bryson, Clague, Hall, Asplund, Ruotsalainen, Olofsson, Pysyk, and Butcher are gone, or on their way out the door.

Thompson, Mittelstadt, and Dahlin became men. Cozens and Krebs are following in their footsteps.

We’ve added Samuelsson, Power, Stillman, Clifton, Johnson, Greenway and Tuch.

We’ve got our fair share of players who are huge and talented and hard to defend. We’ve got our fair share who are fast and competitive and are always pushing. What we don’t have are many players who are afraid. Not anymore.

I think there’s been more of a transformation than you recognize.

Edited July 12, 2023 by dudacek