2023 NHL Summer Trade Thread

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I need to become the voice of truth for this:

The Buffalo Sabres are poised to become a force because far and away the have the most talented group of big men in the NHL. 

I defy you to find a group of 6’3” players anywhere close to Thompson Tuch Cozens Dahlin and Power.

We are a load!

Well, we have some bigger guys and we have some smaller guys but who plays big and who plays small is another matter. 

The average NHL player height is 6'1"

The Buffalo Sabres average height is 6'1"

So in terms of height we are just fine. Probably okay in weight too even if we do have a few skinny kids that still need to add muscle. 

But who plays a heavy game? That's the real question. 

(as for Detroit, no, they are not a "big" team in terms of how they play, but they are slightly "bigger" than us in terms of height at 6'2" average, although that stat might be pre DeBrincat)

[Flashsabre]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I need to become the voice of truth for this:

The Buffalo Sabres are poised to become a force because far and away the have the most talented group of big men in the NHL. 

I defy you to find a group of 6’3” players anywhere close to Thompson Tuch Cozens Dahlin and Power.

We are a load!

But if you don’t punch guys in the face then you are not playing “big”😛

[dudacek]

42 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well, we have some bigger guys and we have some smaller guys but who plays big and who plays small is another matter. 

The average NHL player height is 6'1"

The Buffalo Sabres average height is 6'1"

So in terms of height we are just fine. Probably okay in weight too even if we do have a few skinny kids that still need to add muscle. 

But who plays a heavy game? That's the real question. 

(as for Detroit, no, they are not a "big" team in terms of how they play, but they are slightly "bigger" than us in terms of height at 6'2" average, although that stat might be pre DeBrincat)

Who are the smaller guys?

Peterka and Skinner are 5'11" 190 pounds. Krebs is 6'" 185. They all get their noses dirty.

I'll give you Olofsson. Every team has one.

How many teams have a Dahlin, a 6'3" 215-pound *****-disturbing #1 defenceman?

plus a 225-pound point-per game locomotive first-line winger like Tuch?

and a 6'7"  unstoppable tree like Thompson in the middle?

That's right, nobody. Sabres' size advantage at the top of their lineup is a lethal weapon.

It's time people around here recognized it.

Edited July 10, 2023 by dudacek

[Thorner]

21 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Dahlin was 18 for the entirety of His Rookie Year, while Power turned 20 in November. 
 

Poweris going to be very good, Dahlin is elite 

People forget lol 

[Thorner]

20 hours ago, Brawndo said:

There is a correction factor for that built in. 
 

Besides Jokiharju would have been second to only Jake McCabe in terms of rankings of all those defenseman listed with this years fancy stats applied to the 2018-19 Season 
 

And for fun here was Dahlin and  Samuelsson this year 

 

 

Hold up...
 

Let Brawndo cook.

- - - 

Samuelsson is half man half concept. It’s not Samuelsson’s reasonably ok game that allows Dahlin to do all star stuff on pair one, I keep saying it: it’s Dahlin’s ridiculous all star ability on the top pair that allows a player of Samuelsson’s talents to find a niche on said pair. Dahlin allows him to focus purely on the easier stuff, that he does do well. You can get more Samuelssons. He’s a good player but you literally had people calling him the team MVP last year. Dahlin’s a unicorn. The record without Samuelsson last season was both a commentary on the depth of our blue line leaving us unable to withstand even a Samuelsson sized loss on D (Which KA certainly took steps to address this off-season: in fact, my perhaps slightly below-average reckoning of Samuelsson’s game as it currently stands lends credence to the fact KA’s defensive additions this offseason were more than satisfactory), and a reflection of small sample size, imo. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

18 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Hold up...
 

Let Brawndo cook.

- - - 

Samuelsson is half man half concept. It’s not Samuelsson’s reasonably ok game that allows Dahlin to do all star stuff on pair one, I keep saying it: it’s Dahlin’s ridiculous all star ability on the top pair that allows a player of Samuelsson’s talents to find a niche on said pair. Dahlin allows him to focus purely on the easier stuff, that he does do well. You can get more Samuelssons. He’s a good player but you literally had people calling him the team MVP last year. Dahlin’s a unicorn. The record without Samuelsson last season was both a commentary on the depth of our blue line leaving us unable to withstand even a Samuelsson sized loss on D (Which KA certainly took steps to address this off-season: in fact, my perhaps slightly below-average reckoning of Samuelsson’s game as it currently stands lends credence to the fact KA’s defensive additions this offseason were more than satisfactory), and a reflection of small sample size, imo. 

Preach!

[Zamboni]

Moving goalposts 101

Well the Sabres are small!

… no they are absolutely not small, in fact they’re one of the taller teams in the league.

 

Well, I mean they don’t play big. They don’t check as much as I want them to.
…. Well, that’s a you problem. And if they start to check more?

 

well, I mean they don’t fight a lot!

…. well, again that’s a you problem. There aren’t many fights in the league anymore. It’s becoming more and more unnecessary.

 

well OK maybe they will fight when called upon… But they aren’t winning many fights.

…. and once again that is a you problem. Fighting is becoming less and less of a intimidating or game changing factor when it happens. It just doesn’t carry the same affect that it used to back in the 60’’s 70s and 80s. And if you think it still does matter… That is a you problem.

😇

[Brawndo]

8 hours ago, sabresparaavida said:

To be fair, he does have 2 40 goal seasons under his belt, and had 32 during the covid season (which paces for 50). Yes Tage Thompson looks to be a better deal, but that had more to do with timing which Detroit couldn’t really have done much about. Tage Thompson was signed after a 68 point season, his first anywhere near there. Debrincat has a proven track record of being that productive or even more so, so of course he gets some more money. If anything, his contract should be compared more to Skinners, as they are more comparable signings at the times of their deals.

To be fair smart organizations lock players into long term team friendly deals.
Also being on a line with (at the time) an elite play driver in Patrick Kane certainly helped with those numbers. 
Chicago played a system which plays to his strengths, Ottawa did not. Guess which style Detroit plays? 
He had elite offensive metrics in Chicago, not so much in Ottawa. 
Last year his points per 60 minutes were lower than Tyson Jost. 
Detroit is betting that he is not a product of Chicago’s Offensive System, which is a gamble given the fact that Detroit scored less goals than Ottawa. 
Tage and Debrincat were drafted 14 selections apart, so comparing them is fair game.
One was placed in a dynamic offensive system, the other coached by Ralph Krueger. 
One played his natural position, the other was asked to play a position he had not in a while.

You know who would be an elite offensive play driver for Debrincat to play with?  
Tage Thompson. 
 

Hopefully Larkin can do the same for him, just not against Buffalo

[sabresparaavida]

4 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

To be fair smart organizations lock players into long term team friendly deals.
Also being on a line with (at the time) an elite play driver in Patrick Kane certainly helped with those numbers. 
Chicago played a system which plays to his strengths, Ottawa did not. Guess which style Detroit plays? 
He had elite offensive metrics in Chicago, not so much in Ottawa. 
Last year his points per 60 minutes were lower than Tyson Jost. 
Detroit is betting that he is not a product of Chicago’s Offensive System, which is a gamble given the fact that Detroit scored less goals than Ottawa. 
Tage and Debrincat were drafted 14 selections apart, so comparing them is fair game.
One was placed in a dynamic offensive system, the other coached by Ralph Krueger. 
One played his natural position, the other was asked to play a position he had not in a while.

You know who would be an elite offensive play driver for Debrincat to play with?  
Tage Thompson. 
 

Hopefully Larkin can do the same for him, just not against Buffalo

Another reason why their contracts were not comparable: Debrincat had a 9 Million qualifying offer. That gave him a lot more leverage than Tage had at the time time of his signing. 

[LGR4GM]

14 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

To be fair smart organizations lock players into long term team friendly deals.
Also being on a line with (at the time) an elite play driver in Patrick Kane certainly helped with those numbers. 
Chicago played a system which plays to his strengths, Ottawa did not. Guess which style Detroit plays? 
He had elite offensive metrics in Chicago, not so much in Ottawa. 
Last year his points per 60 minutes were lower than Tyson Jost. 
Detroit is betting that he is not a product of Chicago’s Offensive System, which is a gamble given the fact that Detroit scored less goals than Ottawa. 
Tage and Debrincat were drafted 14 selections apart, so comparing them is fair game.
One was placed in a dynamic offensive system, the other coached by Ralph Krueger. 
One played his natural position, the other was asked to play a position he had not in a while.

You know who would be an elite offensive play driver for Debrincat to play with?  
Tage Thompson. 
 

Hopefully Larkin can do the same for him, just not against Buffalo

I wonder about Debrincat in Detroit's offense. Should be interesting to watch. 

I'll add that his career sh% is about 5% higher than what he did last year while his assist total stayed the same so I think we see and rebound in his shooting.

Edited July 11, 2023 by LGR4GM

[Brawndo]

47 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

Another reason why their contracts were not comparable: Debrincat had a 9 Million qualifying offer. That gave him a lot more leverage than Tage had at the time time of his signing. 

Tage or the Sabres could have waited one more year to sign a long term extension and had Tage elected to do so what would his leverage be this offseason? 
 

Only one of the two is worth nine million. 
 

The Sabres not only locked up Tage for less AAV, but they also have him under contract for additional three seasons. That’s better asset management in my book. 

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

Who are the smaller guys?

Peterka and Skinner are 5'11" 190 pounds. Krebs is 6'" 185. They all get their noses dirty.

I'll give you Olofsson. Every team has one.

How many teams have a Dahlin, a 6'3" 215-pound *****-disturbing #1 defenceman?

plus a 225-pound point-per game locomotive first-line winger like Tuch?

and a 6'7"  unstoppable tree like Thompson in the middle?

That's right, nobody. Sabres' size advantage at the top of their lineup is a lethal weapon.

It's time people around here recognized it.

Well the stats online vary a little based on how updated they are. So NHL average is 6'1"

Sabres under that include: Jost, Skinner, Olofsson, Rousek, Okposo, Peterka, Bryson, Clague, Clifton, Jokiharju, Levi. I'm not saying the team is short in height, they are NHL average, but they don't play heavy. 

How many teams have a Dahlin? In terms of size, don't most of them? eg. Boston, Carlo's 6'5 Forbert's 6'4 Lindholm's 6'3   McAvoy's only 6' but are you really going to suggest Dahlin plays a heavier game than McAvoy? Or since I was talking about Seattle earlier, Borgen 6'3 Dumolin 6'4 Larrsen 6'3 Megna 6'6 and Oleksiak at 6'7 and 257 lbs. How many teams have one of him? I could go on. Dahlin's great, but to suggest we have a big D is inaccurate. and again, they don't play heavy although little Clifton will help change that.

Tuch's a good big forward, but lots of teams have them. Thompson is huge and he's our main guy partly because of it, no argument, but he's hardly "unstoppable". Difficult to stop, but there were games where he got shut down and/or limited. Have to use the size for it to be an advantage as well. He's a gentle giant most nights. 

I will be ecstatic for this simple fact to finally have changed this year but up to now regardless of the team's height and weight, they do not (can not?) play a heavy game and they struggle when a heavy game is used against them. They have been, and probably still are, a soft team. 

In general, (and this is the main reason why I think success in the standings last season does not necessarily mean more points this year) teams did not play heavy against us. They came in still fairly confident and loose and often didn't bring their A game or their A goalie. We totally caught some teams napping, but regardless, almost no one felt the need to play heavy against us (most nights). This will change if we win early next season. I think it's something the team needs to be ready for this year more than other years and this is also why I don't like how Adams decided to construct the bottom of the roster. If Lucic runs Levi this board will go insane, but the Sabres, what will they do????

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by PerreaultForever

[dudacek]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well the stats online vary a little based on how updated they are. So NHL average is 6'1"

Sabres under that include: Jost, Skinner, Olofsson, Rousek, Okposo, Peterka, Bryson, Clague, Clifton, Jokiharju, Levi. I'm not saying the team is short in height, they are NHL average, but they don't play heavy. 

How many teams have a Dahlin? In terms of size, don't most of them? eg. Boston, Carlo's 6'5 Forbert's 6'4 Lindholm's 6'3   McAvoy's only 6' but are you really going to suggest Dahlin plays a heavier game than McAvoy? Or since I was talking about Seattle earlier, Borgen 6'3 Dumolin 6'4 Larrsen 6'3 Megna 6'6 and Oleksiak at 6'7 and 257 lbs. How many teams have one of him? I could go on. Dahlin's great, but to suggest we have a big D is inaccurate. and again, they don't play heavy although little Clifton will help change that.

Tuch's a good big forward, but lots of teams have them. Thompson is huge and he's our main guy partly because of it, no argument, but he's hardly "unstoppable". Difficult to stop, but there were games where he got shut down and/or limited. Have to use the size for it to be an advantage as well. He's a gentle giant most nights. 

I will be ecstatic for this simple fact to finally have changed this year but up to now regardless of the team's height and weight, they do not (can not?) play a heavy game and they struggle when a heavy game is used against them. They have been, and probably still are, a soft team. 

In general, (and this is the main reason why I think success in the standings last season does not necessarily mean more points this year) teams did not play heavy against us. They came in still fairly confident and loose and often didn't bring their A game or their A goalie. We totally caught some teams napping, but regardless, almost no one felt the need to play heavy against us (most nights). This will change if we win early next season. I think it's something the team needs to be ready for this year more than other years and this is also why I don't like how Adams decided to construct the bottom of the roster. If Lucic runs Levi this board will go insane, but the Sabres, what will they do????

 

Doesn't seem like you are responding to my point directly.

There are several guys 'bigger' than Dahlin and a few bigger than Tuch and Thompson. How many of them are big AND talented in the way those three are?

None of the guys you listed come anywhere close.

Lots of teams have a Tuch? I found just four NHL forwards who are 6'4" 220 pounds and scored even 40 points. Tuch had 79! (For the record 2 of those 4 are Sabres)

The Sabres defence is big; it's not arguable: Power 6'6" 220, Samuelsson 6'4 230, Johnson 6'4" 225, Dahlin 6'3, 215, Lyubushkin 6'2", 200 —these are big men.

I get it, you have a perception: "I wish the Sabres were meaner and other teams were scared of us" and your entire argument revolves around that. Because it's a perception, it's impossible to quantify, so there's no point debating it further.

But the Sabres are not a small team. And their best players are huge.

Those are facts.

Edited July 11, 2023 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

How many 6'3" centers in the NHL had 60pts or more?

Because Cozens isn't small

[LGR4GM]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

How many teams have a Dahlin? In terms of size, don't most of them? eg. Boston, Carlo's 6'5 Forbert's 6'4 Lindholm's 6'3   McAvoy's only 6' but are you really going to suggest Dahlin plays a heavier game than McAvoy? Or since I was talking about Seattle earlier, Borgen 6'3 Dumolin 6'4 Larrsen 6'3 Megna 6'6 and Oleksiak at 6'7 and 257 lbs. How many teams have one of him? I could go on. Dahlin's great, but to suggest we have a big D is inaccurate. and again, they don't play heavy although little Clifton will help change that.

Since you specifically mentioned Seattle...

Borgen 6'3 - Rasmus Dahlin 6'3"

Dumolin 6'4 - Mattias Samuelsson 6'4"

Larrsen 6'3 - E Johnson 6'4"

Megna 6'6 - Owen Power 6'6'

Oleksiak at 6'7 - guess you got me there? Next would be 6'2" Lyubushkin 

So we literally match every single one of their guys except Oleksiak. I find it baffling you'll use Oleksiak as the "how many have him!" Argument when Power is better and 1" shorter and at forward the same love of height doesn't get applied to Tage Thompson who no one else has. 

Oleksiak best nhl season was last year at 25pts. Owen Power has 35 as a rookie. 

[tom webster]

OMG, Matt Tkaczuk had a great playoff and suddenly, the silent Neanderthal’s of hockey think you can’t win unless you play “heavy” hockey. 

[Doohicksie]

9 hours ago, Brawndo said:

That’s better asset management in my book.

Do you think it is a potential downside if Kevyn consistently signs players to "team friendly" contracts?  On the one hand, he's better able to keep the team together, but on the other, at some point these players (and the NHLPA) will start to say he's undervaluing assets and get NHLPA action against him or just kind of start feel like they're Kevyn's patsies and become discontented.

Thoughts?

[ddaryl]

3 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Do you think it is a potential downside if Kevyn consistently signs players to "team friendly" contracts?  On the one hand, he's better able to keep the team together, but on the other, at some point these players (and the NHLPA) will start to say he's undervaluing assets and get NHLPA action against him or just kind of start feel like they're Kevyn's patsies and become discontented.

Thoughts?

How can anyone say he's undervaluing assets when the player and agent agree to the terms ?

[Doohicksie]

2 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

How can anyone say he's undervaluing assets when the player and agent agree to the terms ?

And yet,

9 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Only one of the two is worth nine million. 

...and it's not DeBrincat.  I think if it's perceived that Kevyn underpays his top players it could influence someone like Owen Power to get to UFA as quickly as possible and get his (full) payday elsewhere.

[ddaryl]

4 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

And yet,

...and it's not DeBrincat.  I think if it's perceived that Kevyn underpays his top players it could influence someone like Owen Power to get to UFA as quickly as possible and get his (full) payday elsewhere.

OR Owen can see how the Sabres Organization treats its players overall (Dahlin), see's the uptick of the franchise and wants to continue to be apart of that knowing after his bridge deal he'll get another fat raise.

Kevyn is building a culture and players seem to want to stay and are willing to sign for a little less to be apart of this.

Not sure if I'm off on the point that was trying to be made, but having players want to play here is a nice change.... Hopefully building the team, retaining our own will form bonds between the players that will make it hard for them to want to leave...

[Scottysabres]

16 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Do you think it is a potential downside if Kevyn consistently signs players to "team friendly" contracts?  On the one hand, he's better able to keep the team together, but on the other, at some point these players (and the NHLPA) will start to say he's undervaluing assets and get NHLPA action against him or just kind of start feel like they're Kevyn's patsies and become discontented.

Thoughts?

Each contract, individually, has input from both sides of the table. The agents try and get the best deal for their clients, but it's the players who have the final say on a yay or nay on the contract. If the players believe in what management is doing, they buy in.

The NHLPA can do what exactly? Bad mouth the Sabres organization and KA? If they go that route, they're bad mouthing the players who believe in what KA is trying to build....."with them as partners in such a build". 

Players play for reasons, sometimes it's money I am sure, but more often than not, it's to win. If the players believe in what KA is doing and buy in, as stated above, the NHLPA would be wise, and have been wise enough, to support the players.

[kas23]

37 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Do you think it is a potential downside if Kevyn consistently signs players to "team friendly" contracts?  On the one hand, he's better able to keep the team together, but on the other, at some point these players (and the NHLPA) will start to say he's undervaluing assets and get NHLPA action against him or just kind of start feel like they're Kevyn's patsies and become discontented.

Thoughts?

I believe Tampa did this for years. I don’t think it hurt them. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

Do you think it is a potential downside if Kevyn consistently signs players to "team friendly" contracts?  On the one hand, he's better able to keep the team together, but on the other, at some point these players (and the NHLPA) will start to say he's undervaluing assets and get NHLPA action against him or just kind of start feel like they're Kevyn's patsies and become discontented.

Thoughts?

As long as the players collectively get a precise percentage of HRR, wtf would any member of the NHLPA be unhappy about players on a different team getting "underpaid."  The pie is going to be the exact same size at the end of the day regardless of how it gets sliced.  And if Tage Thompson (just as an example) is getting $3MM less than he "should" that's $3MM less going into the denominator when the final escrow payments/refunds get calculated.  

It still is amazing that people worry about the nominal $'s that are there and that somehow by having the nominal $'s increasing for some players that it will magically increase ACTUAL $'s that players in general take home.  (Yes, having a larger nominal contract will cause that particular player's take home pay to go up; but it actually LOWERS the take home pay of every other player in the league.)

Face values of contracts being greater does NOT increase the amount of money that players get.  Increasing ticket sales, concession sales, merchandise sales, and TV and streaming revenues is how players get more money.

And players should be mildly ticked when somebody gets their contract bought out or goes onto BF-LTIR but effectively retires because that's money that counts against the player's share that ends up going to guys that aren't even playing.

And lastly, these guys are taking the "team friendly" deals because they WANT their teammates to be here too.  There is only so much nominal money available under the salary cap and if every guy squeezes every $ out of the team that they can (which is their right and do not begrudge the guys that do so) then they necessarily won't be able to play with all the guys they want to be playing with.

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Since you specifically mentioned Seattle...

Borgen 6'3 - Rasmus Dahlin 6'3"

Dumolin 6'4 - Mattias Samuelsson 6'4"

Larrsen 6'3 - E Johnson 6'4"

Megna 6'6 - Owen Power 6'6'

Oleksiak at 6'7 - guess you got me there? Next would be 6'2" Lyubushkin 

So we literally match every single one of their guys except Oleksiak. I find it baffling you'll use Oleksiak as the "how many have him!" Argument when Power is better and 1" shorter and at forward the same love of height doesn't get applied to Tage Thompson who no one else has. 

Oleksiak best nhl season was last year at 25pts. Owen Power has 35 as a rookie. 

1 more interesting thing. If you add in Dumoulin's points from last year in Pitt and then all the points from the other guys last year (including Megna's 12pts even though he had 0 with the Kraken in only 6 games after being traded) that gives you 115 total points. Owen Power and Rasmus Dahlin alone get you 108pts. 

So great, Seattle has a lot of size, and none of it is as talented as Dahlin and Power even if you add up 5 players and don't bother thinking about Power as the rookie defender he was. 2 Sabres at 6'3" and 6'6" get you 108pts, 5 Kraken all 6"3' or taller get you 115 points.

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, kas23 said:

I believe Tampa did this for years. I don’t think it hurt them. 

Tampa was able to partially offset this with zero state tax and quality of life but your point is well taken. 
 

I do believe a lot of players will be potentially pissed at their agents when the cap approaches $95M/$100M and they realize they should not have signed such long term deals.