Kevyn Adams and Jerry Forton Pre-Draft Presser, 6/21/2023

[Buffalonill]

Just now, Randall Flagg said:

I ate at chef's once. I didn't think the sauce tasted very good and my meatball was one of the worst I've ever had. It had the consistency of jello

You might be died to me 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Buffalonill

[...]

My impression of KA lately is that if he publickly supports a decision or idea, like keeping three goalies (or re-signing Okposo), then he actually means it.

The only off-season change he's supported publickly that I recall offhand is that the defense needs work.

Therefore, my suspicion is that his priority is a D man and contract extensions for Dahlin and Power. 

If this turns out to be the case then it's obviously good work but an incomplete job.

Going with a goalie trio for the NHL roster is madness especially when only one of those goalies, at this point, seems like they may give us a chance in a playoff round.

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, Taro T said:

Thing is, there are options via UFA (Varlamov, Andersen (yuck)), trade (Ullmark, Hellebucyk, Saros (?)), or offer sheet (Swayman).  And that's just ottomh.

For once, the areas the Sabres need to shore up (goalie, 4D, and ideally 5/6D & PKing 4C) actually seem to be available in reasonable abundance.  (Not sure there's abundance at the 4C spot, but there almost always are 10th F's available as FAs, so that one should be available as well should Adams want to address it.)

Not to mention going into year 4 as GM. An amount of time sizeable enough to expect results, full stop. Again, it’s a do or don’t, but fully responsible for the results situation. Improve the goalies, or don’t. But whatever the result of the goaltending output, Adams is certainly answerable for it 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Not to mention going into year 4 as GM. An amount of time sizeable enough to expect results, full stop. Again, it’s a do or don’t, but fully responsible for the results situation. Improve the goalies, or don’t. But whatever the result of the goaltending output, Adams is certainly answerable for it 

Absolutely.  And he should be answerable for the results (good or bad).

[msw2112]

21 minutes ago, ... said:

My impression of KA lately is that if he publickly supports a decision or idea, like keeping three goalies (or re-signing Okposo), then he actually means it.

The only off-season change he's supported publickly that I recall offhand is that the defense needs work.

Therefore, my suspicion is that his priority is a D man and contract extensions for Dahlin and Power. 

If this turns out to be the case then it's obviously good work but an incomplete job.

Going with a goalie trio for the NHL roster is madness especially when only one of those goalies, at this point, seems like they may give us a chance in a playoff round.

I think that Adams' comments were intentional and calculated.  I think he'd like to get a solid veteran goalie, but he doesn't want to overpay, and if it requires overpayment, he'd be willing to go with the trio he has.  If Levi is able to play a full NHL season and some playoffs at the level he played at the end of last season, they'll be fine.  UPL is also a young goalie who played well at times and can/probably will improve.  Comrie, while effective at times, doesn't seem to have much upside.  All of this said, it's quite a gamble to expect Levi to play at that level for an entire NHL season.  I do think he will get there eventually, but it's a lot to expect for a young guy in his first full NHL season.  So Adams left the door open by saying he's going to listen to what's out there and participate in discussions, while also being in a position to not contradict himself if they end up with the same 3 guys.

While I do believe the team should seek goalie help, and I think that Adams does too, I also think that he sees defensemen as a higher priority, and I agree with him.  The poor play in their own zone, and number of times the Sabres left their goalies out to dry on odd man rushes last year, was pretty astounding.  If they can tighten up their defense, and the penalty kill in particular, the goaltending stats will look much better, the team's record will improve, and they will make the playoffs.

Edited June 21, 2023 by msw2112

[Scottysabres]

We need a wheel to spin with the possible D men he can get in trade or ufa.

Someone make one up and email to him please.

[Thorner]

19 minutes ago, ... said:

My impression of KA lately is that if he publickly supports a decision or idea, like keeping three goalies (or re-signing Okposo), then he actually means it.

The only off-season change he's supported publickly that I recall offhand is that the defense needs work.

Therefore, my suspicion is that his priority is a D man and contract extensions for Dahlin and Power. 

If this turns out to be the case then it's obviously good work but an incomplete job.

Going with a goalie trio for the NHL roster is madness especially when only one of those goalies, at this point, seems like they may give us a chance in a playoff round.

He absolutely is ok with doing exactly what he says. I’m beginning to think he simply sets a hard line price/ask and negotiating is simply off the table, more less. Like buying a new car nowadays. He might just not be interested in ever supplementing the team through ends-justify the means type deals, as in maybe a perceived overpay here or there where we get the guy we need, like you see teams “going for it” often do. Ie you can afford to “lose” a trade because your team “wins” in the end by filling the roster hole to a certainty. 

I think his trade philosophy might be, here’s my price, if I don’t get it, I’ll keep what I have. Better to leave the issue unaddressed than come off worse by value in a trade. 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorner]

4 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

I think that Adams' comments were intentional and calculated.  I think he'd like to get a solid veteran goalie, but he doesn't want to overpay, and if it requires overpayment, he'd be willing to go with the trio he has.

Yup

[...]

I wouldn't mind the idea of banking on Levi emerging early for a goalie but that is quite a gamble. 

He looked pretty good for the games he played but in the end he, like the others, was not good enough to cover for poorly executed defense. 

I mean, a lot of people are leaning on Levi as the answer for our goaltending issues but the reality is that there's nothing to back that up. It's a matter of faith.

If that is KA's philosophy on this matter it's certainly an Olde Skool one.

Just a little perplexed over the rationale of the three-goalie statement. The whole concept makes no sense when there are clear paths to virtually guaranteed improvement right in front of him.

He wants to have his cake and eat it, too.

I believe I see what he's trying to accomplish from a 40000 ft view, but it is ambitious and requires a lot of things ultimately out of his control to work. He literally needs to be a wizard at decision making and anticipation which I would never mistake KA for being.

Edited June 21, 2023 by ...

[Weave]

 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, ... said:

I wouldn't mind the idea of banking on Levi emerging early for a goalie but that is quite a gamble. 

He looked pretty good for the games he played but in the end he, like the others, was not good enough to cover for poorly executed defense. 

I mean, a lot of people are leaning on Levi as the answer for our goaltending issues but the reality is that there's nothing to back that up. It's a matter of faith.

If that is KA's philosophy on this matter it's certainly an Olde Skool one.

Just a little perplexed over the rationale of the three-goalie statement. The whole concept makes no sense and standing pat when there are clear paths to virtually guaranteed improvement right in front of him.

I think “OK with the 3-goalie system” is just code for “I’m not going to let it force me into a bad trade”.

Two years ago he went Anderson Dell Tokarski let the chips fall where they may and it didn’t bite him.

Last year it was Anderson Comrie UPL and it did, barely.

He clearly loves Levi.

Adin Hill just won the Stanley Cup. Linus Ullmark is about to win the Vezina.

Maybe goalies are just like running backs: collect a bunch of them, someone will get hot?

I’m like the rest of you: I want a reliable guy who doesn’t cost too much.

I’m starting to wonder if that’s a unicorn.

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, Weave said:

 

Nobody has Morin anywhere near the top 13 but he is in the 2ndry tier of defencemen who might fit the “surprised no is talking about him higher” comment Forton made.

Highly skeptical he’s the guy at 13. At 39, sure.

I wonder what the other comment was that has Wawrow making that connection.

Edited June 21, 2023 by dudacek

[Thorner]

17 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think “OK with the 3-goalie system” is just code for “I’m not going to let it force me into a bad trade”.

Two years ago he went Anderson Dell Tokarski let the chips fall where they may and it didn’t bite him.

Last year it was Anderson Comrie UPL and it did, barely.

He clearly loves Levi.

Adin Hill just won the Stanley Cup. Linus Ullmark is about to win the Vezina.

Maybe goalies are just like running backs: collect a bunch of them, someone will get hot?

I’m like the rest of you: I want a reliable guy who doesn’t cost too much.

I’m starting to wonder if that’s a unicorn.

It’s not an everyone is created equal who’s not a star situation, though. There’s a ton of ground between Hellebuyck and acquiring a couple Comries and hoping for the best. Goalies can be unpredictable, but they aren’t voodoo. There are certainly some more likely to be average or slightly above, or good, than others, and a goalie who has a proven track record is a better bet than someone who has never seized a starting role at all. It’s important to at least attempt to identify a medium guy rather than an awful guy if you can because of the reason the RB comp fall short: you don’t need good running back play to win. You DO need good goalie play to win, it’s just difficult to predict where you’ll get it.

But it’s way way too important not to try, or to act like, if you can’t get a vezina guy, all the other options are equally likely to succeed or not so there’s no use trying 

The differentiating factor is “who doesn’t cost too much”. The more reliable guys are there. Whether they “cost too much” depends on how important it is for the position to be addressed 

Perfect shouldn’t be the enemy of good, and the difficulty in finding perfect CERTAINLY shouldn’t convince you smaller amounts of improvement aren’t a worthy pursuit. Game of inches 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Thorny

[Flashsabre]

41 minutes ago, Weave said:

 

 

[Thorner]

Who here would trade Etienne Morin for a season of Hellebuyck?

[dudacek]

17 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It’s not an everyone is created equal who’s not a star situation, though. There’s a ton of ground between Hellebuyck and acquiring a couple Comries and hoping for the best. Goalies can be unpredictable, but they aren’t voodoo. There are certainly some more likely to be average or slightly above, or good, than others, and a goalie who has a proven track record is a better bet than someone who has never seized a starting role at all. It’s important to at least attempt to identify a medium guy rather than an awful guy if you can because of the reason the RB comp fall short: you don’t need good running back play to win. You DO need good goalie play to win, it’s just difficult to predict where you’ll get it.

But it’s way way too important not to try, or to act like, if you can’t get a vezina guy, all the other options are equally likely to succeed or not so there’s no use trying 

The differentiating factor is “who doesn’t cost too much”. The more reliable guys are there. Whether they “cost too much” depends on how important it is for the position to be addressed 

Perfect shouldn’t be the enemy of good, and the difficulty in finding perfect CERTAINLY shouldn’t convince you smaller amounts of improvement aren’t a worthy pursuit. Game of inches 

To be clear, I agree with this.

I am just starting to wonder if the facts are against us.

There is nothing in the resume of Adin Hill prior to this season to suggest he was any more capable of winning the Stanley Cup than Eric Comrie. Jordan Binnington was just another Dustin Tokarski before he got hot. Stuart Skinner was (and maybe still is) Ukko Pekka Luukkonen.

Hellebuyck, Vasilevskiy and Saros might be the 3 best goalies in hockey. They combined for 3 playoff wins and an .880 save percentage.

As poor as Buffalo’s goaltending was last year, the missed the playoffs by one point, and that was with just three good NHL defencemen, two of which had played less than 60 NHL games.

You don’t think our fancy analytics team has run the numbers on goalies and their actual bang for the buck?

Maybe Kevyn knows something we don’t.

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

To be clear, I agree with this.

I am just starting to wonder if the facts are against us.

There is nothing in the resume of Adin Hill prior to this season to suggest he was any more capable of winning the Stanley Cup than Eric Comrie. Jordan Binnington was just another Dustin Tokarski before he got hot. Stuart Skinner was (and maybe still is) Ukko Pekka Luukkonen.

Hellebuyck, Vasilevskiy and Saros might be the 3 best goalies in hockey. They combined for 3 playoff wins and an .880 save percentage.

As poor as Buffalo’s goaltending was last year, the missed the playoffs by one point, and that was with just three good NHL defencemen, two of which had played less than 60 NHL games.

You don’t think our fancy analytics team has run the numbers on goalies and their actual bang for the buck?

Maybe Kevyn knows something we don’t.

He certainly does.  But, until he actually fixes the goaltending (and maybe it is fixed) he hasn't fixed the goaltending.  And that is a glaring hole on an otherwise shining resume.

[Thorner]

14 minutes ago, dudacek said:

To be clear, I agree with this.

I am just starting to wonder if the facts are against us.

There is nothing in the resume of Adin Hill prior to this season to suggest he was any more capable of winning the Stanley Cup than Eric Comrie. Jordan Binnington was just another Dustin Tokarski before he got hot. Stuart Skinner was (and maybe still is) Ukko Pekka Luukkonen.

Hellebuyck, Vasilevskiy and Saros might be the 3 best goalies in hockey. They combined for 3 playoff wins and an .880 save percentage.

As poor as Buffalo’s goaltending was last year, the missed the playoffs by one point, and that was with just three good NHL defencemen, two of which had played less than 60 NHL games.

You don’t think our fancy analytics team has run the numbers on goalies and their actual bang for the buck?

Maybe Kevyn knows something we don’t.

The Hill to Comrie comp really highlights it for me, honestly. We were counting on Comrie, Hill for Vegas was a fallback. A fallback who had played 74 nhl games in the 5 seasons leading up to this one. Comrie had only played 27! Even *THE* most random, favourable comparable we could pull, Hill, had 3x the amount of experience Comrie had coming in. And Hill was an anomaly. Even Hill had a more bankable track record. I do NOT agree there was no difference in the likelihood of success between them  

I can keep going with this, because Adams makes this one really easy. Comrie was bad. Not below average, you’d literally have to put in a concerted effort to roster someone worse, and I PREDICTED he’d struggle, lots did. It’s not even a hindsight thing (which doesn’t apply to GMs anyways).

Adams scraped the absolute bottom of the barrel. 

Other words: F*cked around, found out 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorner]

18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

To be clear, I agree with this.

I am just starting to wonder if the facts are against us.

There is nothing in the resume of Adin Hill prior to this season to suggest he was any more capable of winning the Stanley Cup than Eric Comrie. Jordan Binnington was just another Dustin Tokarski before he got hot. Stuart Skinner was (and maybe still is) Ukko Pekka Luukkonen.

Hellebuyck, Vasilevskiy and Saros might be the 3 best goalies in hockey. They combined for 3 playoff wins and an .880 save percentage.

As poor as Buffalo’s goaltending was last year, the missed the playoffs by one point, and that was with just three good NHL defencemen, two of which had played less than 60 NHL games.

You don’t think our fancy analytics team has run the numbers on goalies and their actual bang for the buck?

Maybe Kevyn knows something we don’t.

The bang for buck thing is exactly it. That’s exactly his calculation. Value. “Am I winning this trade”. There’s this way of thinking, there’s also thinking about the ends justifying the means. At some point *it does not matter* what the Buck is, it doesn’t even matter if the Bang is only one more win, if that win is the difference in getting you to the playoffs. That’s the point. 

Even real GMs are subject to video game mode, if not

This is what I mean about winning being prioritized. Are we trying to win, get that one more win that gets us in, or are we interested in “bang for your buck”.

“Economic, efficient, bang for your buck”

Edited June 22, 2023 by Thorny

[French Collection]

33 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

 

This guy is a second rounder on most lists, with occasional forays into the first.

Point a game Dman in the Q. Didn’t look impressive in his stint at the U18s.

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I ate at chef's once. I didn't think the sauce tasted very good and my meatball was one of the worst I've ever had. It had the consistency of jello

There's definitely better Italian food in Buffalo. Chef's is like anchor bar, exceedingly mediocre. 

43 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

 

I'd take Morin at 39. At 13... idk they must see something I don't. 

[Buffalonill]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

There's definitely better Italian food in Buffalo. Chef's is like anchor bar, exceedingly mediocre. 

I'd take Morin at 39. At 13... idk they must see something I don't. 

Lies !!! Where 

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

Lies !!! Where 

Tappo is better, Lombardo's is pretty solid, I personally like Romeo and Juliet's 

again, to each their own when it comes to food. 

[tom webster]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Tappo is better, Lombardo's is pretty solid, I personally like Romeo and Juliet's 

again, to each their own when it comes to food. 

There’s like twenty places I’d go before Chef’s. Personally, I like Mulberry’s and Frankie Primo’s.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, tom webster said:

There’s like twenty places I’d go before Chef’s. Personally, I like Mulberry’s and Frankie Primo’s.

Heard good stuff about Mulberry's