Hot take: I’ll be rooting for Eichel

[eman]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

Never said Jack regretted anything. If anything it worked out perfect for him. Things are good with us too.

Exactly! I do honestly believe Dr. Cappuccino's invention will become the new normal for this type of injury. I really do. No surgery is a guarantee on anything but I believe if you're an athlete with the condition Jack had, it may be a career ender and what do you, or your club have to lose by going for it? And for the record, I think faith in the Sabres medical staff had everything to do with it. It sealed the deal.

[Porous Five Hole]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Never said Jack regretted anything. If anything it worked out perfect for him. Things are good with us too.

Jack Eichel won the Jack Eichel trade. Vegas won the trade based on the Cup win. 
Buffalo can still win the trade too. I like where the Sabres are headed.

We may look back on this trade and cheers to it all.  

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, eman said:

Exactly! I do honestly believe Dr. Cappuccino's invention will become the new normal for this type of injury. I really do. No surgery is a guarantee on anything but I believe if you're an athlete with the condition Jack had, it may be a career ender and what do you, or your club have to lose by going for it? And for the record, I think faith in the Sabres medical staff had everything to do with it. It sealed the deal.

Umm, is the correct answer a non-negligible chance for failure of the artificial disc which could effect tragic consequences?

It's great that he's taken a handful of viscious hits and seems none the worse for the wear of them.  But, considering how few athletes that take the sort of punishment a professional hockey player takes that have had this particular procedure, it seems a smidge premature to be crowing about how Eichel absolutely was right in getting the procedure.

Personally, expect it will work out, but literally have almost no data to support that belief.  (And an expectation with no data to base it upon is exactly that - a belief.)

[eman]

8 hours ago, Taro T said:

Umm, is the correct answer a non-negligible chance for failure of the artificial disc which could effect tragic consequences?

It's great that he's taken a handful of viscious hits and seems none the worse for the wear of them.  But, considering how few athletes that take the sort of punishment a professional hockey player takes that have had this particular procedure, it seems a smidge premature to be crowing about how Eichel absolutely was right in getting the procedure.

Personally, expect it will work out, but literally have almost no data to support that belief.  (And an expectation with no data to base it upon is exactly that - a belief.)

Las Vegas is the city of gamblers......................................and now, a Stanley Cup Champion City!

[ndirish1978]

Good for Eichel. I still dislike him and always will.

[K-9]

16 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

This is story the story the media spread around thanks to Jack's agents, so I understand why you think it's the absolute truth.  However it doesn't describe the situation in full.

Jack asked for a trade the season before his neck injury. Once that request was made, the Sabres had no incentive to risk a surgery that, up till then, was never performed on an NHL player. Great for Jack it all worked out but the result was not guaranteed and the Sabres would have been on the hook for the remaining $50-60 million left on his contract if the surgery did not work.

Furthermore, no team would make a sufficient offer for a Jack Eichel coming off experimental neck surgery unless they could see him play, and Jack was never going to skate for the Sabres again.

You conveniently left out the fact that Dr. Andrew Cappuccino is the Sabres neck and spine specialist. If you Google him, you'll find that he was the developer of the artificial disc replacement surgery that Jack wanted. And Dr. C. advised against it because no athlete in a collision sport like hockey ever had the procedure and there was no way to know if Jack's neck would hold up afterwards.

So, as much as it pains some of you to admit, Kevyn Adams did the absolute right thing leaving the decision on Jack's surgery to his new team. They trade for him, they assume the risk. For Vegas, it worked out brilliantly, and the Sabres got fair value in return. All sides happy...well mostly.

I’ve read several posts saying Eichel was “right” about his surgery and the Sabres doctors were “wrong.” That is an unmitigated load of crap and only valid in hindsight which is a luxury the Sabres didn’t have at the time. When the inventor of the procedure, who has performed more of them than anyone on the planet and who teaches the technique to surgeons all around the world, advises against it, it’s not “wrong”; it is simply an extremely well qualified difference of medical opinion and that should be respected. 

And for the record, when Eichel did the Chris Weidman podcast, he flat out lied about how things went down. He said that the Sabres medical staff approved the ADR and then suddenly changed their mind. I know for a fact that Cappuccino and Co. were steadfast against it from the get go. I can only guess why Eichel chose to be deceitful about it. 

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

I’ve read several posts saying Eichel was “right” about his surgery and the Sabres doctors were “wrong.” That is an unmitigated load of crap and only valid in hindsight which is a luxury the Sabres didn’t have at the time. When the inventor of the procedure, who has performed more of them than anyone on the planet and who teaches the technique to surgeons all around the world, advises against it, it’s not “wrong”; it is simply an extremely well qualified difference of medical opinion and that should be respected. 

And for the record, when Eichel did the Chris Weidman podcast, he flat out lied about how things went down. He said that the Sabres medical staff approved the ADR and then suddenly changed their mind. I know for a fact that Cappuccino and Co. were steadfast against it from the get go. I can only guess why Eichel chose to be deceitful about it. 

Thank you. Also, surgery, whether it was ADR or fusion, could not happen if Adams was trading Jack. No team would trade for Eichel coming off neck surgery without seeing him play. And Jack was never setting foot on the ice for the Sabres at that point. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by PromoTheRobot

[eman]

19 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Thank you. Also, surgery, whether it was ADR or fusion, could not happen if Adams was trading Jack. No team would trade for Eichel coming off neck surgery without seeing him play. And Jack was never setting foot on the ice for the Sabres at that point. 

Well, someone did trade for Jack, and the surgery was a success, and that club is now a Stanley Cup Champion. Doesn't get any better than that. The Golden Knights now have in 6 years what a Sabres organization would love to have, and have yet to achieve. Hopefully we are headed in the right direction. Let's hope the 23-24 season isn't a set back from the 91 points from last season. I get people dislike Jack here but he called his shot, it worked out, and I admire him for doing it.

[Thorner]

10 hours ago, eman said:

Well, someone did trade for Jack, and the surgery was a success, and that club is now a Stanley Cup Champion. Doesn't get any better than that. The Golden Knights now have in 6 years what a Sabres organization would love to have, and have yet to achieve. Hopefully we are headed in the right direction. Let's hope the 23-24 season isn't a set back from the 91 points from last season. I get people dislike Jack here but he called his shot, it worked out, and I admire him for doing it.

Adams’ reasons for not allowing the surgery make sense, but the idea they literally had no choice isn’t true. At all. Allowing the surgery was always an option. The trade request from a year previous, that Jack rescinded, was re-awoken over the injury dispute. Maybe Jack changes his mind if he gets his preferred surgery. Maybe he plays in a few games after said surgery to re-establish value, which Jack never ruled out. He specifically mentioned he knew he might need to do that to aid a deal. We also don’t know who would, or wouldn’t have traded for Jack if he got the (a) surgery before the move. 

KA didn’t allow the surgery, as others have said correctly, because he wanted to protect the asset value. Everyone knows this. But he didn’t have to operate in this manner. He could have allowed Jack the surgery he wanted. He didn’t, Vegas did. This is what I was referencing the other day: the perception will remain out there, at large, that the Sabres were “wrong” because Jack ended up really benefiting from a surgery his former team wouldn’t allow. These people aren’t going to drill in to KA’s Sabres-based reasoning, for the most part. Not that “he wanted to protect the value of his asset” will fly with the average person, anyways.

I don’t believe how Adams approached the situation would have a negative perception around the league, though. As mentioned, his mode of operation does make sense and I understand why he operated in the fashion he did. Was speaking merely to the perception among consumers: anyone can peruse any hockey thread anywhere online and see the sentiment exists in a large way that Jack was right about the injury dispute and the Sabres wrong. In realty, Jack was right, but the Sabres in how they operated, were, too.

KA got more less the exact trade value he wanted in the deal, his strategy worked. That Adams could have operated in a different manner, but instead stuck to his guns to the tune of successfully implementing his trade strategy, make the deal all the more impressive from his perspective. No need to minimize the role choice had in the matter, which is always paramount

Edited June 16, 2023 by Thorny

[eman]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Adams’ reasons for not allowing the surgery make sense, but the idea they literally had no choice isn’t true. At all. Allowing the surgery was always an option. The trade request from a year previous, that Jack rescinded, was re-awoken over the injury dispute. Maybe Jack changes his mind if he gets his preferred surgery. Maybe he plays in a few games after said surgery to re-establish value, which Jack never ruled out. He specifically mentioned he knew he might need to do that to aid a deal. We also don’t know who would, or wouldn’t have traded for Jack if he got the (a) surgery before the move. 

KA didn’t allow the surgery, as others have said correctly, because he wanted to protect the asset value. Everyone knows this. But he didn’t have to operate in this manner. He could have allowed Jack the surgery he wanted. He didn’t, Vegas did. This is what I was referencing the other day: the perception will remain out there, at large, that the Sabres were “wrong” because Jack ended up really benefiting from a surgery his former team wouldn’t allow. These people aren’t going to drill in to KA’s Sabres-based reasoning, for the most part. Not that “he wanted to protect the value of his asset” will fly with the average person, anyways.

I don’t believe how Adams approached the situation would have a negative perception around the league, though. As mentioned, his mode of operation does make sense and I understand why he operated in the fashion he did. Was speaking merely to the perception among consumers: anyone can peruse any hockey thread anywhere online and see the sentiment exists in a large way that Jack was right about the injury dispute and the Sabres wrong. In realty, Jack was right, but the Sabres in how they operated, were, too.

KA got more less the exact trade value he wanted in the deal, his strategy worked. That Adams could have operated in a different manner, but instead stuck to his guns to the tune of successfully implementing his trade strategy, make the deal all the more impressive from his perspective. No need to minimize the role choice had in the matter, which is always paramount

Again, I agree that Jack had to be moved, and I like what KA is doing in regards to this club. Improvement is there, and he got 2 really good players in return. I just see it as a wasted opportunity for this club. Jack is very talented. Was he immature while in Buffalo?- YES. I admire the guts of the Vegas organization to gamble on trading for him  and allowing him to get the surgery. It paid off exactly as they hoped it would, for the club and Jack. Not only did he mature in that organization. He proved to be the talent that was written. Playoff leader in points and now a Cup Champion in his first go round' in the playoffs. If the roles were reversed, and the Sabres pulled off this kind of move, everyone on these posts would be crowing about what an awesome manoeuver by management to go after it. People can say hindsight is 20-20 but Vegas is without a doubt, an organization to be admired. 2 Cup finals in 6 seasons and now a Stanley Cup Championship. Sometimes you have to go for it. Now I am hoping that the Sabres make the playoffs next season- in fact, I expect them to. Anything less is a regression for me. 

As good as the Sabres were at times last season, the grit level is going to have to be elevated as you can see, if you watched this season's playoff series. Those were tough, punishing playoffs and |I'm not sure this team, as currently constructed will go past a first round. 

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, eman said:

Again, I agree that Jack had to be moved, and I like what KA is doing in regards to this club. Improvement is there, and he got 2 really good players in return. I just see it as a wasted opportunity for this club. Jack is very talented. Was he immature while in Buffalo?- YES. I admire the guts of the Vegas organization to gamble on trading for him  and allowing him to get the surgery. It paid off exactly as they hoped it would, for the club and Jack. Not only did he mature in that organization. He proved to be the talent that was written. Playoff leader in points and now a Cup Champion in his first go round' in the playoffs. If the roles were reversed, and the Sabres pulled off this kind of move, everyone on these posts would be crowing about what an awesome manoeuver by management to go after it. People can say hindsight is 20-20 but Vegas is without a doubt, an organization to be admired. 2 Cup finals in 6 seasons and now a Stanley Cup Championship. Sometimes you have to go for it. Now I am hoping that the Sabres make the playoffs next season- in fact, I expect them to. Anything less is a regression for me. 

As good as the Sabres were at times last season, the grit level is going to have to be elevated as you can see, if you watched this season's playoff series. Those were tough, punishing playoffs and |I'm not sure this team, as currently constructed will go past a first round. 

Oh it’s absolutely a massive, Grand Canyon sized missed opportunity. The sort of player Jack proved himself to be, in the playoffs specifically, sort of  locks that in definitively.  But it’s a situation that became untenable over several years: I believe it probably got to a point, at the end, where there was no opportunity to be salvaged. Ie, KA took the best course of action for the Sabres based on the time and situation given to him (Gandalf paraphrase, auto +1)

[Thorner]

As for wondering whether we can get past round 1, I’ve said this before: I literally don’t even get that far in my daydreaming. Hubris. Every quote we hear from the team about how it’s not about making the playoffs, it’s about the Cup, reeks of utter hubris to me. I’m sorry, that’s just me. I literally only daydream about the day we make the playoffs. 

That’s all I care about. A 12 year drought has *definitively* proven that be a worthy concern, a ridiculously happy result in and of itself. 

Just make th f*cking playoffs. You won’t hear me bitching if we get swept: bookmark this

[eman]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Oh it’s absolutely a massive, Grand Canyon sized missed opportunity. The sort of player Jack proved himself to be, in the playoffs specifically, sort of  locks that in definitively.  But it’s a situation that became untenable over several years: I believe it probably got to a point, at the end, where there was no opportunity to be salvaged. Ie, KA took the best course of action for the Sabres based on the time and situation given to him (Gandalf paraphrase, auto +1)

and for the first time in many seasons, I am optimistic in the direction this club is going. I really like the job KA is doing. He will need to find a vet goalie in my opinion to ease Levi in and not have him shoulder everything (I still am not 100 % sold on Luukonen but hey, let him fight for a spot and if he can earn it, so be it) The defence needs serious upgrading. It needs to get tougher and stronger to keep the slot clear. Way too many point blank chances last season. The playoffs showed they are a completely different animal than the regular season. Toughness is still required in this league.

[Thorner]

3 minutes ago, eman said:

and for the first time in many seasons, I am optimistic in the direction this club is going. I really like the job KA is doing. He will need to find a vet goalie in my opinion to ease Levi in and not have him shoulder everything (I still am not 100 % sold on Luukonen but hey, let him fight for a spot and if he can earn it, so be it) The defence needs serious upgrading. It needs to get tougher and stronger to keep the slot clear. Way too many point blank chances last season. The playoffs showed they are a completely different animal than the regular season. Toughness is still required in this league.

Dude, that’s an undisputed W, glad to hear it 

- - - 

Agree on the toughness required in the playoffs. Vegas had one of the more salient slogans I’ve heard: “It hurts to win.” 

Ie, to get what you want, expect a painful sacrifice 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Thorny

[eman]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

As for wondering whether we can get past round 1, I’ve said this before: I literally don’t even get that far in my daydreaming. Hubris. Every quote we hear from the team about how it’s not about making the playoffs, it’s about the Cup, reeks of utter hubris to me. I’m sorry, that’s just me. I literally only daydream about the day we make the playoffs. 

That’s all I care about. A 12 year drought has *definitively* proven that be a worthy concern, a ridiculously happy result in and of itself. 

Just make th f*cking playoffs. You won’t hear me bitching if we get swept: bookmark this

Agreed. Baby steps first. Lots of youth in the lineup that needs to experience that type of intensity. So different from the regular season.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I don't care enough about John John either way.

Happy for him and his teammates to have won the cup.  The hardest trophy to win in pro sport.

My problem is that their team is based in Vegas.  I don't like when these non-hockey market teams win it.

If Vegas stinks next season the arena will be empty.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

That's 1 red X so far ...

😁

[Porous Five Hole]

7 minutes ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

If Vegas stinks next season the arena will be empty.

https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=11894
 

Their attendance has been consistently excellent. Does it help that they’re a perennial playoff team? Sure does. 

[LGR4GM]

13 hours ago, Thorny said:

Oh it’s absolutely a massive, Grand Canyon sized missed opportunity. The sort of player Jack proved himself to be, in the playoffs specifically, sort of  locks that in definitively.  But it’s a situation that became untenable over several years: I believe it probably got to a point, at the end, where there was no opportunity to be salvaged. Ie, KA took the best course of action for the Sabres based on the time and situation given to him (Gandalf paraphrase, auto +1)

Here's my question, can Tuch be what Eichel was in the playoffs? I think it's a real possibility. 

[dudacek]

13 hours ago, Thorny said:

 

Ie, to get what you want, expect a painful sacrifice 

Maybe even some suffering?

😜

[Quint]

https://www.thehockeybeast.com/nhl/jack-eichel-celebrates-the-stanley-cup-by-working-at-a-fast-food-drive-thru-fans-cant-believe-its-for-real/

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Here's my question, can Tuch be what Eichel was in the playoffs? I think it's a real possibility. 

It’s possible. Would be difficult, imo Jack was probably the rightful Smythe winner. Not sure Tuch’s 200ft/defensive impacts are as strong, particularly as a winger. I’d guess he could be right up there in points with him on a Sabres team that went to the final, considering the excellent offensive season we just saw from him and our scoring in general. My guess is Tuch would, too, in fact be a guy who elevates come playoffs time, which would be great news for us. Mostly, I just hope we get to see what the answer is, and I’m praying we get a crack at it next season 

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Maybe even some suffering?

😜

Perhaps. 

Or, maybe it’ll hurt our prospect pool, a little bit, to win. I think that would be the more relevant takeaway as far as what fans should prepare for, as of today 

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

I don't care enough about John John either way.

Happy for him and his teammates to have won the cup.  The hardest trophy to win in pro sport.

My problem is that their team is based in Vegas.  I don't like when these non-hockey market teams win it.

If Vegas stinks next season the arena will be empty.

They won’t and it wouldn’t 

[Thorner]

 

[French Collection]

32 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

Must have racked up some big gambling debt having to work a second job. LOL