The Stanley Cup Playoffs 2023: Second Round GDT.

[Zamboni]

C’mon Seattle … 

[klos1963]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Eichel wanted out even before he was hurt. And when the KA took over he made it clear that he wanted players on his team who wanted to be here and be part of the rebuild. So the decision to trade Eichel was not a difficult decision for the GM to make. In fact, the GM told the player to stay home and not come back. The issue came down to getting an acceptable return. In my view, he got it. 

As you seem to be pointing out, the Eichel deal worked out well for both teams. And I would also say the same thing about the Reinhart deal. It worked out well for Florida and Buffalo. If Levi becomes our primary goaltender, that deal could turn out to be the most consequential of the deals from trading away our old core. Looking back, if I had the choice of keeping one player who was dealt, it would be Montour. 

Montour would flourish under Granato.  He looked good when Granato took over. 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Eichel wanted out even before he was hurt. And when the KA took over he made it clear that he wanted players on his team who wanted to be here and be part of the rebuild. So the decision to trade Eichel was not a difficult decision for the GM to make. In fact, the GM told the player to stay home and not come back. The issue came down to getting an acceptable return. In my view, he got it. 

As you seem to be pointing out, the Eichel deal worked out well for both teams. And I would also say the same thing about the Reinhart deal. It worked out well for Florida and Buffalo. If Levi becomes our primary goaltender, that deal could turn out to be the most consequential of the deals from trading away our old core. Looking back, if I had the choice of keeping one player who was dealt, it would be Montour. 

I think it was a little more difficult than you are implying. Don’t forget that when Eichel first said he wasn’t on board for a rebuild, they went in a different, Taylor Hall -ish direction. We can speculate who in management pushed which direction, but clearly the organization as a whole didn’t simply easily move on 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Thorny

[pastajoe]

Too bad for Seattle, but I think Dallas will be a tougher opponent for Vegas.

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, pastajoe said:

Too bad for Seattle, but I think Dallas will be a tougher opponent for Vegas.

Dallas had the second best goal differential in the NHL after Boston this year, so I’m thinking you are probably right. Tough to pick against Vegas now though they are rolling 

[pastajoe]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Dallas had the second best goal differential in the NHL after Boston this year, so I’m thinking you are probably right. Tough to pick against Vegas now though they are rolling 

I think Dallas has the advantage in goal.

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, pastajoe said:

I think Dallas has the advantage in goal.

True. And Vegas was at a disadvantage in goal on paper last two series, as well 

[...]

That was an excellent series. Glad Dallas won. I wish I were the kind of person to play brackets as all the teams I wanted to win have won so far.

The Wyatt Johnson goal was, as the kids say, sick.

I think we're going to have some really entertaining conference finals on both sides.

 

 

[rickshaw]

I’m gonna be in Vegas for a week starting next Wednesday. Gonna be wild there. 

[pastajoe]

46 minutes ago, Thorny said:

True. And Vegas was at a disadvantage in goal on paper last two series, as well 

Edmonton had bad goaltending.

[TheAud]

45 minutes ago, rickshaw said:

I’m gonna be in Vegas for a week starting next Wednesday. Gonna be wild there. 

I was there on Friday when Game 5 was played. Walked over to T-Mobile during the second period.  They have a huge screen on the side of the arena showing the game live and another smaller but better screen as well. Frankly there weren't too many people out there watching, maybe in the 50-100 range and a third of them were Oilers fans. However as you walk away from T-Mobile towards the strip there is a massive sports bar that looks like a great place to watch the game. What was interesting was the feed next to the arena was truly 'live' and when Vegas scores they play the horn outside the arena. However at the sports bar it's a 30-40 second delay so people cheer when they hear the horn, then they watch for a while in anticipation and cheer again when they see how Vegas scored. 

BTW a single ticket on resale (Ticketmaster) before the game was generally down to $185-$195 including all fees. This is for the upper deck of course. There are cheaper ways in as well but standing room only and some cases limited or no view. 

 

[rickshaw]

We have partied outside T Mobile in years past. Had a blast. We stay at the Park so it’s right there. 
 

[Gatorman0519]

The success of Reinhart, Eichel, and Montour definitely highlights just how dysfunctional the Sabres have been run. We are literally the outlier of how bad it can get proven by the record for playoff futility. Hopefully a new day is dawning. 

[North Buffalo]

41 minutes ago, Gatorman0519 said:

The success of Reinhart, Eichel, and Montour definitely highlights just how dysfunctional the Sabres have been run. We are literally the outlier of how bad it can get proven by the record for playoff futility. Hopefully a new day is dawning. 

Yeh i could give to craps about Jack but agree on Sam and Montour... Jack is not a leader... a very talented high maintenance 2nd fiddle that is best ignored when acting out... kinda like a teenager... Sam just needed more stable players around him and Montour the right system sadly Granato came too late

[JohnC]

10 hours ago, Thorny said:

I think it was a little more difficult than you are implying. Don’t forget that when Eichel first said he wasn’t on board for a rebuild, they went in a different, Taylor Hall -ish direction. We can speculate who in management pushed which direction, but clearly the organization as a whole didn’t simply easily move on 

I'm not implying anything. I'm stating what the GM said on multiple occasions on WGR. The GM said that his first task was to determine who wanted to be here and who did not. That was not a difficult assignment. Jack did not want to be part of the rebuild, understandably so. Jack was told by the GM to stay away from the team. Certainly, the injury and surgery options were points of contention. But Jack wanted out and the GM didn't want him around. There's no nuance here. The lines of demarcation were clear and unalterable. 

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, Gatorman0519 said:

The success of Reinhart, Eichel, and Montour definitely highlights just how dysfunctional the Sabres have been run. We are literally the outlier of how bad it can get proven by the record for playoff futility. Hopefully a new day is dawning. 

I agree with your sentiment overall. Montour is the best example.

And while the Sabres were bad at pretty much everything over most of the last decade (coaching, development, drafting....), I think you can put this on Drafting players more than anything.

Eichel is who he is, there really was no other player you were going to pick at that spot. Reinhart?  You could have had Draisaitl or Nylander there.  But the bigger issue with the Sabre is look at the rest of who they picked.  Over the last 15-20 years, only Arizona might have a worse draft history than the Sabres (not couting the last couple years.)

We are all hoping the team is turning around now, but really since Pegula took over the Sabres have been one of the worst at drafting, and coaching, and scouting, and player development.  You have a playoff drought of a few years when you are bad at one or two of those things. You have a massive playoff drought when you are bad at pretty much all of them.

[PerreaultForever]

On 5/15/2023 at 11:31 AM, nucci said:

anything can happen in the other games too, not just game 7

True, but you get chances to overcome a bad bounce or facing a hot goalie etc.    Game 7's are often decided by one bounce. 

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, JohnC said:

I'm not implying anything. I'm stating what the GM said on multiple occasions on WGR. The GM said that his first task was to determine who wanted to be here and who did not. That was not a difficult assignment. Jack did not want to be part of the rebuild, understandably so. Jack was told by the GM to stay away from the team. Certainly, the injury and surgery options were points of contention. But Jack wanted out and the GM didn't want him around. There's no nuance here. The lines of demarcation were clear and unalterable. 

You are messing up the timeline. Jack wasn’t told to “stay home” when he first said he didn’t want a rebuild. That bit from KA came a year later once the injury dispute began 

It was a significantly more drawn out, and complicated process than your, again, black and white take that, again, lacks nuance.

Things are rarely wrapped up neatly in a clean little bow like you tend to state, like just across the board. 

”clear and unalterable” reads like an intentional parody when KA *literally* altered his initial plan for his first year as GM. Jack has *literally* given Adams credit for “taking a shot at it” after Eichel’s “I don’t want to be here if we are going to rebuild” comments were made. Adams and the organization attempted to accommodate Jack, at first.

It wasn’t cut and dry, I’m sorry. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Thorny

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

You are messing up the timeline. Jack wasn’t told to “stay home” when he first said he didn’t want a rebuild. That bit from KA came a year later once the injury dispute began 

It was a significantly more drawn out, and complicated process than your, again, black and white take that, again, lacks nuance.

Things are rarely wrapped up neatly in a clean little bow like you tend to state, like just across the board. 

”clear and unalterable” reads like an intentional parody when KA *literally* altered his initial plan for his first year as GM. Jack has *literally* given Adams credit for “taking a shot at it” after Eichel’s “I don’t want to be here if we are going to rebuild” comments were made. Adams and the organization attempted to accommodate Jack, at first.

It wasn’t cut and dry, I’m sorry. 

We are talking past one another. Once Jack made it clear that he didn't want to be part of the rebuild the GM's decision to move him was not difficult to make. How many times had the GM publicly stated that he wanted players who wanted to be part of the solution/rebuild? He repeated it so much that it became a mantra. Jack didn't want to be in Buffalo any longer. (I have no criticism for his position.) There was little subtlety about where each party stood. The divorce was inevitable. Maybe  not for you but for me it wasn't a complicated situation. It happens all the time in sports and in the workplace. 

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

We are talking past one another. Once Jack made it clear that he didn't want to be part of the rebuild the GM's decision to move him was not difficult to make. How many times had the GM publicly stated that he wanted players who wanted to be part of the solution/rebuild? He repeated it so much that it became a mantra. Jack didn't want to be in Buffalo any longer. (I have no criticism for his position.) There was little subtlety about where each party stood. The divorce was inevitable. Maybe  not for you but for me it wasn't a complicated situation. It happens all the time in sports and in the workplace. 

So just a refusal to accept you are mistaken on timeline. Alright man. Who cares about the truth when clinging to being “right” matters more 

It’s a refusal to accept facts on your part. Your second sentence is plain old inaccurate. 

”Once Jack made it clear that he didn't want to be part of the rebuild the GM's decision to move him was not difficult to make.“ 

We aren’t “talking past each other”, which you always seem to default to,  you are simply, in this case, mistaken. Once Jack made it clear he didn’t want to be in a rebuild, the GM *decided to change his plan for a year*. 

All the “go for it with Taylor Hall” stuff was *after* Jack told KA he “didn’t want to be here for a rebuild.” Adams proceeded to attempt to accommodate JE. It’s all peachy if you believe YOU somehow knew it was over at that time: but it wasn’t for KA, and that’s not when he told JE to stay home. That was a *year later*

Edited May 16, 2023 by Thorny

[Thorner]

Where’s @Brawndo

please correct me on timeline here if I’m mistaken. I’ll happily admit I’m wrong if I am 

[Thorner]

“It just seemed that we were heading towards another…I don’t want to say rebuild but, we weren’t really in a position that we were going to try and win. I went to the team and said I wasn’t really happy with the idea of that. If that’s the route they wanted to take, maybe it would be better to move me, to use me as a jumpstart.”

Eichel gave Adams “a lot of credit” for signing Taylor Hall and making moves intended to improve the team. But, 2020-21 went terribly for the team and Eichel, a “disaster in terms of a personal season for myself.”

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/jack-eichel-discusses-trade-request-desire-disc-replacement-surgery/sn-amp/

Edited May 16, 2023 by Thorny

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

So just a refusal to accept you are mistaken on timeline. Alright man. Who cares about the truth when clinging to being “right” matters more 

It’s a refusal to accept facts on your part. Your second sentence is plain old inaccurate. 

”Once Jack made it clear that he didn't want to be part of the rebuild the GM's decision to move him was not difficult to make.“ 

We aren’t “talking past each other”, which you always seem to default to,  you are simply, in this case, mistaken. Once Jack made it clear he didn’t want to be in a rebuild, the GM *decided to change his plan for a year*. 

All the “go for it with Taylor Hall” stuff was *after* Jack told KA he “didn’t want to be here for a rebuild.” Adams proceeded to attempt to accommodate JE. It’s all peachy if you believe YOU somehow knew it was over at that time: but it wasn’t for KA, and that’s not when he told JE to stay home. That was a *year later*

 

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Where’s @Brawndo

please correct me on timeline here if I’m mistaken. I’ll happily admit I’m wrong if I am 

This is correct 

[nfreeman]

On 5/15/2023 at 12:34 PM, Taro T said:

Still wonder how different the path would've been had Reinhart also been on a LT deal when Adams was taking over.  If Eichel knew his buddy wouldn't be able to bolt in a year (or 2, depending on whether we're talking about the 1st time Eichel said 'if you're rebuilding, maybe you should trade me' or after the debacle post-Covid season), would he have been more receptive to the changes that were coming?

The die has been cast and those guys are gone, but said back then that with the right additions/changes THAT team could've become contenders themselves.  The success that Reinhart & Montour and Eichel are having lends credence to that.  Especially if O'Reilly had been given the leadership reins rather than getting punted.  At least this team is likeable and seems poised to finally break the streak (and 5 years sooner than the Bills broke theirs).

Not expecting Florida to be able to get past the Canes, but that should be a great series.  On paper, Vegas should be able to beat the winner of Dallas / Seattle but expect Dallas will make it 2 expansion teams in a row they eliminate if they can get past the 1st one.

 

On 5/15/2023 at 6:34 PM, klos1963 said:

Gotta wonder how well things would have gone if we went right with Granato and skipped over RK.

IMHO during the latter years of the Eichel/Reino era there was enough talent in the key positions, other than goalie until Ullmark's last year here, for a good GM/coach combo to have put together a consistent lower-tier playoff team here.  Eichel, Reino and Montour are all upper-echelon NHL players, and there are a number of other Sabres alumni who are still solid contributors, many on playoff teams (McCabe, Bogo, Colin Miller, Lazar, Scandella, Sheary, Rodrigues, Vesey)

But TM, JB, Howie and especially Kruger were all bad-to-terrible at their jobs in multiple ways -- none was even average! -- and this created an insurmountable obstacle.

 

On 5/15/2023 at 1:49 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Sabres didn't "rebuild from nothing" though. When they came into the league we already had all of the core players (and then we added Tuch by trading Eichel). 

If you look at their inaugural roster   https://nhl.nbcsports.com/2021/07/21/nhl-expansion-draft-seattle-kraken-reveal-inaugural-roster/

Would you have traded everybody we had for that roster? I don't think you would, so the idea that it was easier for them than us is one I totally disagree with.

Totally agree.  VGK and the Kraken aren't better than the Sabres because they got some kind of boost from the expansion draft rules.  They are better than the Sabres because the Sabres were a terribly run franchise for a decade.

 

On 5/15/2023 at 5:55 PM, Thorny said:

 

I don’t know that Adams was correct that we needed that full reset, but that’s a secondary point to the fact that: he’s made his choice, work. As far as we’ve seen so far. His return for Eichel was successful and the track he’s put the team on seems to be paying dividends so far. He was right. 

Eichel was right, too. 30s in hockey is old. He’s in his mid/late 20s. Jack wanted to be playing in the playoffs, NOW, regardless of how promising the future might be had he signed up for a rebuild. How can he be declared wrong? He’s a leading Conn Smythe candidate heading to the final 4. He was right: this IS where Jack Eichel should be right now. In your heart of hearts everyone knows this is true. This is what a late 20s player of his magnitude should be doing, what Jack should be playing for, right now. I wish the same for Dahlin when he’s his age. 

Win win

I agree with this.  I think you generally take a rose-colored view of Jack's behavior and leadership while he was here, but there is no question IMHO that the franchise failed him, that a decently run franchise would've gotten much more out of Jack than the Sabres got and that Jack made the right decision in asking to be traded (and that KA made the right decision from the Sabres' perspective too).

 

[Quint]

On 5/15/2023 at 12:36 AM, Quint said:

 

My question is how is everyone here going to react when Eichel turns out to be MVP of the Stanley Cup winning team this year?

Quote

 

I said it on 5/15.