Layout Your Offseason Plan

[Dr. Who]

17 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Maybe Adams was legitimately interested in Gibson.  It is, however, counter to everything Adams has said and done in building the team thus far.  He simply has shown no interest in taking on a veteran player with lots of term and a high AAV.  Indeed, he has said on multiple occasions that it is important that he and the organization know a player before they make that kind of a commitment to an individual.

My opinion is that the hockey world in general looks at the Sabres and assumes they will do what the hockey world in general does.  There is no veteran starting goalie in Buffalo and thus the Sabres will be in on any veteran goalie who might make them better in the short-term.  This is why the connection to Gibson is made and now to Hellebuyck as well, I think. 

There is little to no chance, from what Adams has said and done, that the Sabres are interested in acquiring Gibson (high AAV, lots of term, declining performance) or Hellebuyck (high acquisition cost, one year to UFA with an extension that would require a high AAV over a long-term while also blocking Levi). If Adams acquires either player it will mean he has had a 180 degree shift in his plan for building the roster. 

My recollection is that in the year-end interview Adams was asked about going young in net and his answer was that the organization's philosophy on this was to be "fearless".  All signs point to Levi/UPL as our goalies. 

I think that kind of fearless is unwise. At minimum, he should bring in a veteran goalie to split starts with Levi. If Levi was more proven, UPL could reasonably develop into a competent backup. We'll see how it plays out. Every successful GM has to have some poker player in him. I just doubt Adams has stated everything he's thinking for public consumption.

[Archie Lee]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I think that kind of fearless is unwise. At minimum, he should bring in a veteran goalie to split starts with Levi. If Levi was more proven, UPL could reasonably develop into a competent backup. We'll see how it plays out. Every successful GM has to have some poker player in him. I just doubt Adams has stated everything he's thinking for public consumption.

I think you are right.  The more likely outcome than a big splash trade for a Gibson or Hellebuyck I think, is that he signs a Raanta or a Talbot or a Brossoit to a 1 or 2 year deal.  

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Maybe Adams was legitimately interested in Gibson.  It is, however, counter to everything Adams has said and done in building the team thus far.  He simply has shown no interest in taking on a veteran player with lots of term and a high AAV.  Indeed, he has said on multiple occasions that it is important that he and the organization know a player before they make that kind of a commitment to an individual.

My opinion is that the hockey world in general looks at the Sabres and assumes they will do what the hockey world in general does.  There is no veteran starting goalie in Buffalo and thus the Sabres will be in on any veteran goalie who might make them better in the short-term.  This is why the connection to Gibson is made and now to Hellebuyck as well, I think. 

There is little to no chance, from what Adams has said and done, that the Sabres are interested in acquiring Gibson (high AAV, lots of term, declining performance) or Hellebuyck (high acquisition cost, one year to UFA with an extension that would require a high AAV over a long-term while also blocking Levi). If Adams acquires either player it will mean he has had a 180 degree shift in his plan for building the roster. 

My recollection is that in the year-end interview Adams was asked about going young in net and his answer was that the organization's philosophy on this was to be "fearless".  All signs point to Levi/UPL as our goalies. 

As you point out, based on how the GM has operated since assuming his position, his actions have corresponded with what he has repeatedly stated. He's very conscious of the contract cost and length that he is willing to assume. I simply don't believe that KA would be interested in a Hellebuyck or even a Gibson acquistion primarily because of their respective contract length and details $$$. KA has demonstrated that he is reluctant in giving up assets for players whose contracts don't fall within his cap structure. KA wouldn't even stretch his contract boundaries for Ullmark, a goalie he already had. He's mostly relying on bringing up players from within the system and using secondary deals to add players such as Spellman and Greenway. 

The people who argue that an acquisition of Hellebuyck or some other upper echelon goalie will make an immediate difference are right. I would be foolish to argue otherwise. But what it takes to make that high profile transaction come to fruition doesn't come close to falling within how he has operated over the past three years. Where I do see our GM willing to expend assets for is on our blueline.  As it stands you and I have a distinct minority view that it is more likely than not that Levi,UPL and Comrie will be vying for the goalie spots and roles. I envision Levi being our primary goalie with UPL and Comrie competing for the backup spot. 

[DarthEbriate]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

From Seravalli:

John Gibson, the man who may have nixed a trade to the Sabres last summer, has apparently told the Ducks he’s now OK with being moved.

29 with 4 years left at $6.4. Excellent his first few seasons. Hasn’t performed to his rep for a few years now.

Anaheim has been on the rebuild (6th-8th in their division) for 5 straight years and went full-on tank mode this season for Bedard. While the team was not good, it could also easily be argued that Gibson is a major reason they finished 6-8 instead of 4-6 in those seasons. His play started downhill in 2018 and hasn't stopped sliding.

I'm curious why Gibson refused a trade last offseason. There was hope and some young talent (Zegras, McTavish, Drysdale), but they also weren't setting themselves up for anything but a tank year. This year, is he finally tired of losing, or has he appraised that young talent and said, "They don't have it. Send me elsewhere." ?

I wouldn't trade for him.

But...  I do wonder what Anaheim would send with him to get out of that contract? Because I don't think you have to give up anything for Gibson, I think Anaheim would be trying to unload him, especially if they don't have to retain any salary.

[French Collection]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

As it stands you and I have a distinct minority view that it is more likely than not that Levi,UPL and Comrie will be vying for the goalie spots and roles. I envision Levi being our primary goalie with UPL and Comrie competing for the backup spot. 

I think there are others, myself included, who think there is a high probability KA runs it back with those goalies. Do I want that? No.

What I still hope for is that there are deals out there that he listens to and is considering. Something like the Hellebuyck deal could happen.

This is young team but the runway to contention is not that long. I really want Levi to be the guy to lead this team to a Stanley Cup. Maybe he is ready for a tandem role now. I wouldn’t expect him to be a 60 game starter yet. 
What if he is not ready. Then you have to depend on Comrie or UPL to be the guy, and one of them may be lost to waivers, reducing the options.

I know KA has been methodical and patient but if Levi needs 2-3 years to be ready for prime time goaltending then there will be a few years of below average playoff performance.

KA must understand how much help Hellebuyck, Saros or a UFA like Andersen, Raanta or Hill could provide the team and Levi’s development.

One year of Helle might be enough to go on a nice playoff run and get Levi ready to take over. Helle may like it enough to extend on $$ and term that KA can live with. Then, over time, the roles could gradually shift to Levi being the man with Helle being the solid vet 1B.

I don’t think the Sabres would be mortgaging the future by giving up #13, a prospect and UPL for Hellebuyck.

I just hope KA is not sold on Levi/UPL/Comrie come hell or high water.

Edited June 3, 2023 by French Collection

[Flashsabre]

No to Gibson.Let someone else pray he rediscovers himself.

Ullmark is still the best option. Bruins fans are all resigned to the fact he has to be moved this offseason. 2 years at 5 million, career numbers around .915. Would be the perfect fit but everyone is all caught up that he left when the team was a tire fire. His acquisition cost would be less than Hellebuyck to and you get the extra year.

If Adams goes Levi-UPL-Comrie then he is doing the entire organization a disservice. You want to ruin a potential franchise goalie, throw him in the deep end too quickly and have no backup plan.

Get Levi a good vet mentor to help him along and develop to his full potential. 

There is too much smoke from insiders linking Hellebuyck to Buffalo to tell me that Adams is not interested in upgrading the goalie position.

[Standing Room Smoking Cigs]

I don't know going all in on an outside goalie is the end all for the drought. I have to look at Jack Campbell in Edmonton as a warning. Campbell didn't cost Edmonton drat picks, prospects... but they spent some serious cash against the cap. He certainly wasn't worth 5 year/5 Million AVG this year. That contract will also drag on Edmonton as they are hard up against the cap. Bobrovsky wasn't playing the down the stretch in the Panthers late season run to make the playoffs. Adin Hill was 4th on the depth chart in Vegas. Far better to get a top 4 defenseman if you're considering giving up assets. The Sabres can absorb giving up 2 to 3 goals a game, giving the their offensive talent... it is the top 4 defensmen that are going to make the difference in wins and losses in my opinion.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Standing Room Smoking Cigs
new wording

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, Standing Room Smoking Cigs said:

I don't know going all in on an outside goalie is the end all for the drought. I have to look at Jack Campbell in Edmonton as a warning. Campbell didn't cost Edmonton drat picks, prospects... but they spent some serious cash against the cap. He certainly wasn't worth 5 year/5 Million AVG this year. That contract will also drag on Edmonton as they are hard up against the cap. Bobrovsky wasn't playing the down the stretch in the Panthers late season run to make the playoffs. Adin Hill was 4th on the depth chart in Vegas. Far better to get a top 4 defenseman if you're considering giving up assets. The Sabres can absorb giving up 2 to 3 goals a game, giving the their offensive talent... it is the top 4 defensmen that are going to make the difference in wins and losses in my opinion.

You'd have to figure how much you can spend allowing for extensions to core players and how the Sabres plan on managing the cap going forward, but I think you could get a veteran goalie and acquire a top 4 D without requiring particularly unusual effort or luck. Teams up against the cap may create trade partners. Maybe you pry a Hanifin or DeMelo away for an acceptable price. There are quality FAs available to bolster the blueline. No reason KA cannot do both. Still think you could add Hellebuyck, Graves, and DeMelo, just as an example, for a combination of picks and prospects that leaves the top prospects out of the equation.

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Maybe Adams was legitimately interested in Gibson.  It is, however, counter to everything Adams has said and done in building the team thus far.  He simply has shown no interest in taking on a veteran player with lots of term and a high AAV.  Indeed, he has said on multiple occasions that it is important that he and the organization know a player before they make that kind of a commitment to an individual.

My opinion is that the hockey world in general looks at the Sabres and assumes they will do what the hockey world in general does.  There is no veteran starting goalie in Buffalo and thus the Sabres will be in on any veteran goalie who might make them better in the short-term.  This is why the connection to Gibson is made and now to Hellebuyck as well, I think. 

There is little to no chance, from what Adams has said and done, that the Sabres are interested in acquiring Gibson (high AAV, lots of term, declining performance) or Hellebuyck (high acquisition cost, one year to UFA with an extension that would require a high AAV over a long-term while also blocking Levi). If Adams acquires either player it will mean he has had a 180 degree shift in his plan for building the roster. 

My recollection is that in the year-end interview Adams was asked about going young in net and his answer was that the organization's philosophy on this was to be "fearless".  All signs point to Levi/UPL as our goalies. 

Maybe you don’t consider Matt Murray’s 2 years at $6.2 to be a match, but that was a veteran with term and a high AAV. Adams agreed to a trade for for him with the Senators.

[French Collection]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Maybe you don’t consider Matt Murray’s 2 years at $6.2 to be a match, but that was a veteran with term and a high AAV. Adams agreed to a trade for for him with the Senators.

I am glad that trade didn’t happen.

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

You'd have to figure how much you can spend allowing for extensions to core players and how the Sabres plan on managing the cap going forward, but I think you could get a veteran goalie and acquire a top 4 D without requiring particularly unusual effort or luck. Teams up against the cap may create trade partners. Maybe you pry a Hanifin or DeMelo away for an acceptable price. There are quality FAs available to bolster the blueline. No reason KA cannot do both. Still think you could add Hellebuyck, Graves, and DeMelo, just as an example, for a combination of picks and prospects that leaves the top prospects out of the equation.

Fans of Winnipeg and Calgary think DeMelo and Hanifin respectively are available.  Both team are looking for up-and-coming talent with term and some futures.  I imagine that include Jokiharu.

Addendum: would Adams be willing to add two defencemen at that level?  That would make the defence pretty formidable.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Marvin

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, French Collection said:

I think there are others, myself included, who think there is a high probability KA runs it back with those goalies. Do I want that? No.

What I still hope for is that there are deals out there that he listens to and is considering. Something like the Hellebuyck deal could happen.

This is young team but the runway to contention is not that long. I really want Levi to be the guy to lead this team to a Stanley Cup. Maybe he is ready for a tandem role now. I wouldn’t expect him to be a 60 game starter yet. 
What if he is not ready. Then you have to depend on Comrie or UPL to be the guy, and one of them may be lost to waivers, reducing the options.

I know KA has been methodical and patient but if Levi needs 2-3 years to be ready for prime time goaltending then there will be a few years of below average playoff performance.

KA must understand how much help Hellebuyck, Saros or a UFA like Andersen, Raanta or Hill could help the team and Levi’s development.

One year of Helle might be enough to go on a nice playoff run and get Levi ready to take over. Helle may like it enough to extend on $$ and term that KA can live with. Then, over time, the roles could gradually shift to Levi being the man with Helle being the solid vet 1B.

I don’t think the Sabres would be mortgaging the future by giving up #13, a prospect and UPL for Hellebuyck.

I just hope KA is not sold on Levi/UPL/Comrie come he’ll or high water.

If you substitute Saros for Hellebuyck for the assets that you list, I would be on board. What was very telling for me is that Levi was thrown into the deep end at the end of the season playoff run. He acquitted himself very well. In fact, his performance sidelined UPL. The constant refrain is that KA will be taking a risk by going with what he has on the roster. That obvious answer is yes, he certainly is. Based on how he has operated I see him (my guess) is that he willing to take it. 

[Dr. Who]

28 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Fans of Winnipeg and Calgary think DeMelo and Hanifin respectively are available.  Both team are looking for up-and-coming talent with term and some futures.  I imagine that include Jokiharu.

Addendum: would Adams be willing to add two defencemen at that level?  That would make the defence pretty formidable.

Perhaps I have been habituated to lowered expectations, but I will be relieved if KA grabs one. Two would certainly make the D more credible, assuming they are intent on actually incorporating a coherent defensive system.

[Archie Lee]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Maybe you don’t consider Matt Murray’s 2 years at $6.2 to be a match, but that was a veteran with term and a high AAV. Adams agreed to a trade for for him with the Senators.

Fair point, but there are clear differences. First, Ottawa retained on the Murray deal with the Leafs.  I'm not sure if it was ever reported if retention was or was not part of the deal with the Sabres, but he might not have been coming at $6.2.  The bigger difference though is the term.  Murray had 2 years remaining from last off-season; meaning his contract is up before Dahlin, Power, Mitts, Joker and Krebs need new deals.  Gibson has 4 years remaining at $6.4.  I doubt Anaheim would retain for that length of time.  His contract takes us through years where new deals will also be needed for Tuch, Peterka, Quinn, Levi and any rookie (Kulich?, Savoie?) who makes the team this season.  So, the two are not really comparable.

I should say that I could see Adams taking on a veteran goalie for two seasons.  I don't think it will happen, but it would not shock me if we did sign any # of UFA goalies for 2 seasons.  I also think he could be convinced to take a run at Saros if he became available (the ship has sailed on Ullmark I suspect).  

[ndirish1978]

When does free agency start?

[LabattBlue]

6 hours ago, ndirish1978 said:

When does free agency start?

7/1 12PM ET

Edited June 4, 2023 by LabattBlue

[Randall Flagg]

23 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

Maybe Adams was legitimately interested in Gibson.  It is, however, counter to everything Adams has said and done in building the team thus far.  He simply has shown no interest in taking on a veteran player with lots of term and a high AAV.  Indeed, he has said on multiple occasions that it is important that he and the organization know a player before they make that kind of a commitment to an individual.

My opinion is that the hockey world in general looks at the Sabres and assumes they will do what the hockey world in general does.  There is no veteran starting goalie in Buffalo and thus the Sabres will be in on any veteran goalie who might make them better in the short-term.  This is why the connection to Gibson is made and now to Hellebuyck as well, I think. 

There is little to no chance, from what Adams has said and done, that the Sabres are interested in acquiring Gibson (high AAV, lots of term, declining performance) or Hellebuyck (high acquisition cost, one year to UFA with an extension that would require a high AAV over a long-term while also blocking Levi). If Adams acquires either player it will mean he has had a 180 degree shift in his plan for building the roster. 

My recollection is that in the year-end interview Adams was asked about going young in net and his answer was that the organization's philosophy on this was to be "fearless".  All signs point to Levi/UPL as our goalies. 

"Fearless"

 

"I have no fear my job will be in jeopardy when UPL mirrors a Lalime win percentage and is 89th in most goalie advanced stats and we miss by 3 points despite scoring the 5th most goals in team history "

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

7/1 12PM ET

I'm glad this stuff is finally back to normal 

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

"Fearless"

 

"I have no fear my job will be in jeopardy when UPL mirrors a Lalime win percentage and is 89th in most goalie advanced stats and we miss by 3 points despite scoring the 5th most goals in team history "

I'm glad this stuff is finally back to normal 

How our goalie group is seen by the Sabre organization may be a lot different than how it is seen by the majority of the fans. As @Standing Room Smoking Cigspointed out, Vegas is playing for the Cup with Adin Hill as their goalie. He was their fourth goalie taking over for a long list of goalies who were hurt. Is Lehner's contract reflecting much value, especially compared to the production that Hill is giving the team? 

As @LGR4GMpointed out in a prior post, the Sabres, in their end of season run, did play a tighter style of game, and were effective doing so. I'm not arguing that our roster as it stands is complete. It's obvious that additions need to be made on the blueline. Considering our cap space and abundance of assets, draft picks and prospects, addressing that weakness is very achievable this offseason. 

I'm open to upgrading the goalie position. But I don't see it as dire as most others make it out to be. (And I'm not even sure that the GM does either.) Good team defense is as much about the play of the players in front of the goalie as it is about the goalie in the net. That is what Vegas is demonstrating. 

[Rasmus_]

Montreal and their pundits are so in love with the Levi paradox where he'll be their savior.  Sure, you can have Devon Levi, for your top 10 pick, three future firsts, and Nick Suzuki.  Otherwise, stop posting your trash.

I think they're moving on from Girgensons, and that's upsetting but part of life.  Rousek easily can replace him next season.

[irregularly irregular]

On 6/3/2023 at 11:37 AM, Standing Room Smoking Cigs said:

I don't know going all in on an outside goalie is the end all for the drought. I have to look at Jack Campbell in Edmonton as a warning. Campbell didn't cost Edmonton drat picks, prospects... but they spent some serious cash against the cap. He certainly wasn't worth 5 year/5 Million AVG this year. That contract will also drag on Edmonton as they are hard up against the cap. Bobrovsky wasn't playing the down the stretch in the Panthers late season run to make the playoffs. Adin Hill was 4th on the depth chart in Vegas. Far better to get a top 4 defenseman if you're considering giving up assets. The Sabres can absorb giving up 2 to 3 goals a game, giving the their offensive talent... it is the top 4 defensmen that are going to make the difference in wins and losses in my opinion.

Agree with this sentiment. That 4D is the must have. Some additional D help for 5-8 would be nice. 

My priority list:

1) 4D that has enough experience and is defensively minded thereby providing the optimal environment for the development of Owen Power

 

 

2) Solid and reliable 1A or 1B goalie to provide the optimal environment for the development of Devon Levi

3) Experienced, but still lots of tread on the tires, face-off savant and penalty killing center to fix both of those problems for the next 3 years or more

[Broken Ankles]

3 hours ago, Rasmus_ said:

Montreal and their pundits are so in love with the Levi paradox where he'll be their savior.  Sure, you can have Devon Levi, for your top 10 pick, three future firsts, and Nick Suzuki.  Otherwise, stop posting your trash.

I think they're moving on from Girgensons, and that's upsetting but part of life.  Rousek easily can replace him next season.

Is this true?  I’m not disputing replacing him, as I’m not an advocate of paying a guy $3M++ for a 4th line role, special teamer with *hands of stone*.   The Sabres could elevate the scoring with Rousek, but not sure he can be and plug and play on the PK#1.   Who areyour top two forwards?  

[Randall Flagg]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

How our goalie group is seen by the Sabre organization may be a lot different than how it is seen by the majority of the fans. As @Standing Room Smoking Cigspointed out, Vegas is playing for the Cup with Adin Hill as their goalie. He was their fourth goalie taking over for a long list of goalies who were hurt. Is Lehner's contract reflecting much value, especially compared to the production that Hill is giving the team? 

As @LGR4GMpointed out in a prior post, the Sabres, in their end of season run, did play a tighter style of game, and were effective doing so. I'm not arguing that our roster as it stands is complete. It's obvious that additions need to be made on the blueline. Considering our cap space and abundance of assets, draft picks and prospects, addressing that weakness is very achievable this offseason. 

I'm open to upgrading the goalie position. But I don't see it as dire as most others make it out to be. (And I'm not even sure that the GM does either.) Good team defense is as much about the play of the players in front of the goalie as it is about the goalie in the net. That is what Vegas is demonstrating. 

We rolled out a group of goalies which couldn't crack the top 80 in most NHL goaltending metrics and missed the playoffs by one point. 

I don't care about this mystical "how the GM sees it" 

I care about getting NHL goaltending

They can do what they want, I will opine on it and hope they don't fail the position a 4th time in a row. If they do, they should join me in the stands 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

We rolled out a group of goalies which couldn't crack the top 80 in most NHL goaltending metrics and missed the playoffs by one point. 

I don't care about this mystical "how the GM sees it" 

I care about getting NHL goaltending

They can do what they want, I will opine on it and hope they don't fail the position a 4th time in a row. If they do, they should join me in the stands 

For the immediate future, I am hoping that Adams finds average goaltending.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Marvin
Splelign.

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

We rolled out a group of goalies which couldn't crack the top 80 in most NHL goaltending metrics and missed the playoffs by one point. 

I don't care about this mystical "how the GM sees it" 

I care about getting NHL goaltending

They can do what they want, I will opine on it and hope they don't fail the position a 4th time in a row. If they do, they should join me in the stands 

Comrie was hurt for much of the season and never really got into a rhythm. Anderson was hurt and there wasn't much left in his tank. UPL showed some flashes but couldn't be counted on to be a consistent factor. Does he have more potential? I don't really know. Of the three goalies that included a short end of the season pressurized stint by Levi, I thought he was our best goalie. Does that short exhibition of competency translate into being the primary goalie next season? I don't know. 

You may consider it a mystical "how the GM sees it" issue but when all is said and done it is what he thinks that counts. And he will act based on how he sees it. There's nothing mystical about that. 

[Flashsabre]

#13 and Comrie for Demko and Myers? Or simply #13 for Demko

Somehow Vancouver have the worst cap situation in the league. They are really handcuffed. There are rumours they might move Demko at the draft.

He would make a great tandem with Levi for 3 years. Taking Myers clears more cap for them. One year deal he can be more than serviceable beside Power.

UPL can’t be sent down so flip him and VO for picks.

Also word that either Swayman or Ullmark will be moved for cap purposes in Boston. Swayman is an RFA they can’t afford to sign right now, Ullmark making $5 million for 2 more years.

There will be quality options to upgrade in net this offseason.