Hey adams this is on you.

[thewookie1]

8 hours ago, Weave said:

Really the issue with this line of thinking is that if you wait until you can beat whoever the 1 seed is, you are continually waiting another season.

Even a 4 game sweep is a valuable learning experience for this team.  Learning playoff hockey at 22 makes them so much more prepared to advance at 23.  And 24.

In regards to moving top picks and prospects, we have a huge supply of both.  We also had very valuable cap space to weaponize.  Next season we are going to be hard pressed to find room for two rookies AND fill holes in the type of player we currently lack (holes we could have solidly identified in a playoff series by the way).  The season after that is probably more of the same.  We are literally splitting at the seams with solid prospects.  Certainly some combination of prospect, pick, cap space was usable to get gains now without sacrificing our ability to be successful 3 seasons down the road.

 

Noone said over pay. 

Based on what Adams inferred, Arizona wanted overpay for Chychrun. 
 

Also, every year is different but there are very general rules of thumb to go by. You buy rentals when you are competing for the Stanley Cup, you sell when wanting better or more draft picks and otherwise you make the best moves you can that improve the team without harming other parts. 
 

This year there is a literal juggernaut in the 1st seed. My honest question to you would be; would you trade Savoie or Kulich for a rental if you were assured a playoff berth against Boston? I certainly wouldn’t; in my opinion you always want at least 1 or 2 good/great prospects in the system at minimum as protection against busts or injury. 
 

This upcoming offseason would be the time to make some maneuvers outside those two. Barring a Top 5 pick due to winning the lottery and going up 10 spots, I’d be willing to use my 1st to get a solid player for use in the next few years. The rest of the prospect pool and picks also become assets for potential use up to a point. We‘d have a fresh season, mindset and all of our rookies would be more seasoned and our top prospects on the cusp of the NHL. 

[Weave]

30 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Based on what Adams inferred, Arizona wanted overpay for Chychrun. 
 

Also, every year is different but there are very general rules of thumb to go by. You buy rentals when you are competing for the Stanley Cup, you sell when wanting better or more draft picks and otherwise you make the best moves you can that improve the team without harming other parts. 
 

This year there is a literal juggernaut in the 1st seed. My honest question to you would be; would you trade Savoie or Kulich for a rental if you were assured a playoff berth against Boston? I certainly wouldn’t; in my opinion you always want at least 1 or 2 good/great prospects in the system at minimum as protection against busts or injury. 
 

This upcoming offseason would be the time to make some maneuvers outside those two. Barring a Top 5 pick due to winning the lottery and going up 10 spots, I’d be willing to use my 1st to get a solid player for use in the next few years. The rest of the prospect pool and picks also become assets for potential use up to a point. We‘d have a fresh season, mindset and all of our rookies would be more seasoned and our top prospects on the cusp of the NHL. 

We have many more bullets than Savoie and Kulich.  There are many more potential improvements than Chychrun.  There is no need to focus on the ends.  There is a huge continuum between Stillman and Chychrun, and Savoie and our cap space.  
 

Again, my only point is, opportunity lost for a team that was better than we realized.

And for those that say this team performed to expectations and not over them, how many of you voted knocking on the door of the playoffs without the condition of at least average goaltending?  I’m betting the number quite small.  This team was good enough to carry ***** goaltending to the cusp.  This was a better than expected team. 
 

Thats alright.  They have been entertaining for at least 3/4 of the games played.  Progress.  Congrats KA for that.  But don’t let the next opportunity go by without support.  Please.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I will answer this. I think everyone agrees the team has to improve defensively. If Granato was teach offense first then defense it's quite possible that instilling a more disciplined team D system will result in diminished offense. Part of the reason we scored as much as we did was our free wheeling guns blazing style that often burnt us with counter attacks. 

It's hard to have both defense and offense and a balance needs to be struck. idk what their plan will be, maybe they think they can win 8-7 every night but it's never worked before. 

Granato has addressed this issue of balance between the offence and defense a number of times. He's not unaware that there has to be a balance between the two sides of the ice. He has repeatedly stated that it is more difficult to score in the NHL than to play defense. He has pointed out that it is a more complex endeavor than instituting a defensive scheme. His priority was to get the offense established, and from there work to tighten up on defense. 

My basic point is that the coaching staff and organization are well aware of what next needs to be done to make this a more competitive team. It's only logical that you emphasize step one before you do step two. And it should be noted that this team did tighten up defensively at the end of the season during its late surge. There's certainly more to do on the defensive side of the game, and much of that will be to bring in a blueliner or two in the offseason. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

Granato has addressed this issue of balance between the offence and defense a number of times. He's not unaware that there has to be a balance between the two sides of the ice. He has repeatedly stated that it is more difficult to score in the NHL than to play defense. He has pointed out that it is a more complex endeavor than instituting a defensive scheme. His priority was to get the offense established, and from there work to tighten up on defense. 

My basic point is that the coaching staff and organization are well aware of what next needs to be done to make this a more competitive team. It's only logical that you emphasize step one before you do step two. And it should be noted that this team did tighten up defensively at the end of the season during its late surge. There's certainly more to do on the defensive side of the game, and much of that will be to bring in a blueliner or two in the offseason. 

I know, that was discussed many times earlier. It's an odd comment because usually it's the other way around. Learning to play defense in the NHL is the hard part. Lots of hotshot rookies have come into the league and been fine offensively and then taken steps back as they learn defense. idk, maybe Granato is right, but it's the exact opposite of what Montgomery says in Boston and I've heard others over the years say the same thing. My own view is in line with that and imo Granato has it backwards if that is what he truly believes. 

So next year we will see if he can get the "easy" part done as the offense was just fine this year but the D was not. 

[JohnC]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I know, that was discussed many times earlier. It's an odd comment because usually it's the other way around. Learning to play defense in the NHL is the hard part. Lots of hotshot rookies have come into the league and been fine offensively and then taken steps back as they learn defense. idk, maybe Granato is right, but it's the exact opposite of what Montgomery says in Boston and I've heard others over the years say the same thing. My own view is in line with that and imo Granato has it backwards if that is what he truly believes. 

So next year we will see if he can get the "easy" part done as the offense was just fine this year but the D was not. 

The problem with the Sabres on defense isn't so much schemes. Most schemes on offense and defense are essentially similar, with slight variations due to team composition. The fundamental issue is having enough talent on the blueline unit. Our lower pairings are inadequate. Our top two pairings get overused because of the lackluster talent on the bottom half of the pairings. It's likely that the GM addresses this deficiency this offseason. At least, I hope so. 

[msw2112]

I don't remember the Granato quotes exactly, but my interpretation was that offense is easier to learn, and is also more fun to play, so that's why he wanted to start there.   Let the young guys focus on that, allowing them to gain confidence, become competitive, win some games, and have fun doing it.  Once that baseline has been established, you can shift the focus more to defense.  Because of the successes you've had, the guys have bought in, and are more receptive to learning defense (or whatever else the coach is preaching).

Krueger's system was the exact opposite.  It was very rigid and defense-focused.  So much so, that guys couldn't flash their natural talents and couldn't be creative.  The style of play was boring and nobody was "padding their stats" or having career years (maybe Eichel did have one good year statistically....).  After losing a few games, the guys lost interest, no longer bought in, and the team spiraled downward.  A top-flight offensive NHL forward, Jeff Skinner, was in the press box, super-talented Dahlin was a mess, and Thompson was on the road to nowhere, just to name a few.

[dudacek]

32 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

I don't remember the Granato quotes exactly, but my interpretation was that offense is easier to learn, and is also more fun to play, so that's why he wanted to start there.   Let the young guys focus on that, allowing them to gain confidence, become competitive, win some games, and have fun doing it.  Once that baseline has been established, you can shift the focus more to defense.  Because of the successes you've had, the guys have bought in, and are more receptive to learning defense (or whatever else the coach is preaching).

Krueger's system was the exact opposite.  It was very rigid and defense-focused.  So much so, that guys couldn't flash their natural talents and couldn't be creative.  The style of play was boring and nobody was "padding their stats" or having career years (maybe Eichel did have one good year statistically....).  After losing a few games, the guys lost interest, no longer bought in, and the team spiraled downward.  A top-flight offensive NHL forward, Jeff Skinner, was in the press box, super-talented Dahlin was a mess, and Thompson was on the road to nowhere, just to name a few.

Granato’s take was that offence is actually harder to learn and some players never learn it because coaches don’t give them the freedom to experiment and find out what works and what doesn’t.

He wants to instill confidence in them that they can score at the NHL level before rounding out their games.

[French Collection]

1 hour ago, msw2112 said:

I don't remember the Granato quotes exactly, but my interpretation was that offense is easier to learn, and is also more fun to play, so that's why he wanted to start there.   Let the young guys focus on that, allowing them to gain confidence, become competitive, win some games, and have fun doing it.  Once that baseline has been established, you can shift the focus more to defense.  Because of the successes you've had, the guys have bought in, and are more receptive to learning defense (or whatever else the coach is preaching).

Krueger's system was the exact opposite.  It was very rigid and defense-focused.  So much so, that guys couldn't flash their natural talents and couldn't be creative.  The style of play was boring and nobody was "padding their stats" or having career years (maybe Eichel did have one good year statistically....).  After losing a few games, the guys lost interest, no longer bought in, and the team spiraled downward.  A top-flight offensive NHL forward, Jeff Skinner, was in the press box, super-talented Dahlin was a mess, and Thompson was on the road to nowhere, just to name a few.

Offense is more artistic, players create.

Defense is more discipline, players need to be in position and have awareness.

I believe you can teach a talented player to play defensively, you just need to get their buy in as a GM, coach and teammate.

I believe you cannot teach a grinder to score at the NHL. If they don’t have the hands, feet and IQ to score at lower levels they will not find a touch at this level.

 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, French Collection said:

Offense is more artistic, players create.

Defense is more discipline, players need to be in position and have awareness.

I believe you can teach a talented player to play defensively, you just need to get their buy in as a GM, coach and teammate.

I believe you cannot teach a grinder to score at the NHL. If they don’t have the hands, feet and IQ to score at lower levels they will not find a touch at this level.

 

Even sometimes if they do score at the AHL level they won't score in the NHL.  Varada is the posterboy example of that.

And agree with you.  ALL players can be taught to play D (they may flat out refuse to do so, but that's on stubbornness not an inability to do so).  Not everybody can create and score at the NHL level and it is way easier to get a guy to stop believing in his offensive talents (especially if he's young when he's brought up and just doesn't have the strength to keep the puck going through traffic and to get a hard enough shot off to beat a goalie from only a good, not a great, scoring chance) than to cause that creativity to blossom at the NHL level.  

It's going to be real interesting to see how this team plays in it's own end and in transition back towards it's own end this coming season.  They'll finally have a goalie that can bail them out when they make a mistake by being overly aggressive.  Expecting they'll try to stay aggressive and actually become more aggressive.  They seem to let teams have the blue line a lot; expect they will cut down on that and will simply live with the occasional breakaway / 2 on 1 that creates when the defender loses that battle.

[5th line wingnutt]

18 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Even sometimes if they do score at the AHL level they won't score in the NHL.  Varada is the posterboy example of that.

And agree with you.  ALL players can be taught to play D (they may flat out refuse to do so, but that's on stubbornness not an inability to do so).  Not everybody can create and score at the NHL level and it is way easier to get a guy to stop believing in his offensive talents (especially if he's young when he's brought up and just doesn't have the strength to keep the puck going through traffic and to get a hard enough shot off to beat a goalie from only a good, not a great, scoring chance) than to cause that creativity to blossom at the NHL level.  

It's going to be real interesting to see how this team plays in it's own end and in transition back towards it's own end this coming season.  They'll finally have a goalie that can bail them out when they make a mistake by being overly aggressive.  Expecting they'll try to stay aggressive and actually become more aggressive.  They seem to let teams have the blue line a lot; expect they will cut down on that and will simply live with the occasional breakaway / 2 on 1 that creates when the defender loses that battle.

Nope.  Some guys just are not very smart.  They make the same mistakes over and over.  Rasmus Ristolainen, for example.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, 5th line wingnutt said:

Nope.  Some guys just are not very smart.  They make the same mistakes over and over.  Rasmus Ristolainen, for example.

Even Ristolainen could play D reasonably well if he weren't constantly playing on a higher pairing than he should be and playing with other guys that don't quite know exactly where to be either when the other team gets cycling.

Even the smart guys will have issues when they are being asked to go up against competition that is better than they are.  The guys that are strong as ox and nearly as bright as one don't have a monopoly on that front.  ;)

[Sidc3000]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:32 AM, GoPuckYourself said:

We have a goalie, we were top half of the league in goals. There is a lot to like here, I agree we need to get better defensively. We’ll see how they handle it in the off-season, I’m expecting heavy defensive forwards/defensemen.

Picking up one or two players isn’t fixing the defense but we’ll see what happens 

[GoPuckYourself]

3 hours ago, Sidc3000 said:

Picking up one or two players isn’t fixing the defense but we’ll see what happens 

If 1 or 2 of the players are defensmen it is.

Edited April 13, 2023 by GoPuckYourself

[Sidc3000]

20 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

If 1 or 2 of the players are defensmen it is.

The whole team needs to play defense so, no, 1 or 2 players will not fix it

[SwampD]

2 hours ago, Sidc3000 said:

The whole team needs to play defense so, no, 1 or 2 players will not fix it

I think I agree with this. But, they started to play it toward the end of the season. They have a long way to go.

[Weave]

8 hours ago, SwampD said:

I think I agree with this. But, they started to play it toward the end of the season. They have a long way to go.

Yeah, I am less concer About system thay I was 2 months ago.  The team definitely changed how they play down the stretch, and it gives me confidence that situationally we will do that.  I think if we shore up #4 and maybe 6D we’ll be good if the goaltending holds up.

[SwampD]

3 minutes ago, Weave said:

Yeah, I am less concer About system thay I was 2 months ago.  The team definitely changed how they play down the stretch, and it gives me confidence that situationally we will do that.  I think if we shore up #4 and maybe 6D we’ll be good if the goaltending holds up.

Definitely. Bryson got owned, physically, in front of our net against Jersey. He is so fast, though, and his speed has actually bailed out the D at times. Still need an upgrade there, I think.

[Weave]

29 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Definitely. Bryson got owned, physically, in front of our net against Jersey. He is so fast, though, and his speed has actually bailed out the D at times. Still need an upgrade there, I think.

Shoring up 4d moves 5, 6, and 7 down a spot, so shoring up Bryson may occur as a natural result of upgrading Joki.