What Should the Goals be Next Season?

[French Collection]

46 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Here is an easy question for you. What’s the record of the team that traded for Chychrun over the last 6 games ?

I watched one Sens game and we wasn’t very good. Sanderson plays PP1 while Chabot plays PP2. I guess he will need some time to acclimate to that team but he will be complimentary, not a go to guy.

[sabresparaavida]

49 minutes ago, French Collection said:

I watched one Sens game and we wasn’t very good. Sanderson plays PP1 while Chabot plays PP2. I guess he will need some time to acclimate to that team but he will be complimentary, not a go to guy.

Which is probably what he would have been here, with Dahlin and Power running the other spots. In the end I’m quite alright with not getting Chychurn, I have faith in this team to do well next season.

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, French Collection said:

I watched one Sens game and we wasn’t very good. Sanderson plays PP1 while Chabot plays PP2. I guess he will need some time to acclimate to that team but he will be complimentary, not a go to guy.

They won last night in spite of getting outshot 49-21.
 I wanted the Sabres to trade for Chychrun but not at any cost

[Pimlach]

6 hours ago, sabresparaavida said:

Which is probably what he would have been here, with Dahlin and Power running the other spots. In the end I’m quite alright with not getting Chychurn, I have faith in this team to do well next season.

Me too. The type of defenseman I want to add should be veteran and more skilled on defending, playing PK, strong enough to clear out the front of the net,  brave enough to get control of pucks under a forecheck,  and skilled enough to make good breakout passes.    Ok,I just described Rod  Langway, but a basic version of him him would be nice. 
 

We have 26 and 25 to take care of the flashy stuff.  Even Joker is in that mold.  
 

I like the Teppo, Lydman, McKee types.  

Edited March 21, 2023 by Pimlach

[Marvin]

There is a part of me that thinks that Chychrun told Armstrong to send him to a team with at most 1 offencive defenceman if at all possible.  Why?  Because he would not get PP time, hence lowering his potential points and thus the value of his next contract.  To my mind, this makes sense given what we heard from LA's GM about why they ended talks with Arizona and why the ask from Adams was higher than Ottawa's: Armstrong was going to do him a solid and avoid sending him to a team where he would not be a clear #1 or #2 offencive D unless the offer was significantly better.  So Armstrong used the Sabres as leverage against Ottawa once he knew he wasn't getting a Tim Murray trade from Adams.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Marvin said:

There is a part of me that thinks that Chychrun told Armstrong to send him to a team with at most 1 offencive defenceman if at all possible.  Why?  Because he would not get PP time, hence lowering his potential points and thus the value of his next contract.  To my mind, this makes sense given what we heard from LA's GM about why they ended talks with Arizona and why the ask from Adams was higher than Ottawa's: Armstrong was going to do him a solid and avoid sending him to a team where he would not be a clear #1 or #2 offencive D unless the offer was significantly better.  So Armstrong used the Sabres as leverage against Ottawa once he knew he wasn't getting a Tim Murray trade from Adams.

Doubt the Ottawa trade was a favor to Chychrun, but maybe.

Expect it simply came down to Armstrong wanted either Savoie or Kulich (maybe both?) from the Sabres and when Adams wouldn't budge on that he went with an offer that was reasonably close to what he'd get from the Sabres minus Savoie or Kulich.  Armstrong said he made his decision off of the top piece being offered.  The Sabres 1 and the Otters 1 at the time of the trade were essentially equivalent.

Armstrong didn't want to "cave" and accept Adams offer, so he took what was essentially the same offer from someone not named Kevyn.

[Marvin]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Doubt the Ottawa trade was a favor to Chychrun, but maybe.

Expect it simply came down to Armstrong wanted either Savoie or Kulich (maybe both?) from the Sabres and when Adams wouldn't budge on that he went with an offer that was reasonably close to what he'd get from the Sabres minus Savoie or Kulich.  Armstrong said he made his decision off of the top piece being offered.  The Sabres 1 and the Otters 1 at the time of the trade were essentially equivalent.

Armstrong didn't want to "cave" and accept Adams offer, so he took what was essentially the same offer from someone not named Kevyn.

My theory was, all other things being equal, that he would give Chychrun a better situation to make more money.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Marvin said:

My theory was, all other things being equal, that he would give Chychrun a better situation to make more money.

Realized that.  And don't believe that was the driving factor in taking the Otter deal.  As stated, expect it was more a case of not just getting the best offer he could get but also not losing a negotiation with somebody he needs to negotiate with in the future.  (Both the Sabres and LA GM's would be among those he didn't want to cave on the ask.)  And since the Otter offer was comparable (presumably) or even better than the best offer the Sabres and LA were making, he went with that deal rather tan let one of the other GM's get him to walk back his ask with them this time.

[French Collection]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

My theory was, all other things being equal, that he would give Chychrun a better situation to make more money.

Chabot can score at this level but he is no Dahlin.

Sanderson has the potential to score more than Power.

Chychrun may end up being 3-4 D there for two years, with limited PP time.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Wow now that’s a statement.  Besides giving up Savoie for Chychrun.  What other moves would you have made to guarantee this playoff spot ?

and no getting your doors blown off by Boston doesn’t change the perception. 
there is no way you are the guy who says “I’m just happy to be here “ after they lose 

all making the playoffs would do is delay your negativity for an extra day or 2   

To the first sentence, it goes way back and is too involved for the time it would take here. If I was in Buffalo I could take you out for a few beers and some wings and we could go over this for a full evening, after which you'd say ya, that might have been better. 

A few things as examples. Would not have traded all the draft capital TM traded away. Would not have traded for Evander Kane. Would not have traded for O'Reilly. Would not have traded for Lehner. Would not have traded Marcus Foligno (he'd likely be captain right now). Would not have hired any of the coaches we hired from Bylsma to Granato. Would have given Ullmark more. Would not have drafted Nylander. Would have traded Skinner and Ullmark prior to deadlines if they didn't sign for the max amount in my budget. Would have traded Reinhart earlier when he appeared to be ready to peak and thus have gotten more for him. Possibly traded Eichel earlier. 

SO MANY MISTAKES and most of them glaring errors I disagreed with when they happened. But all these things lead to other things so it's kind of impossible to answer your question reasonably. If I reversed some of TM's early mistakes we'd have already done better so draft picks would have been lower but maybe FAs would have come here. I guarantee you we wouldn't be an 11 year losing joke. You could wear a blindfold and throw darts at a spinning wheel of options and come up with better results than some of the Sabres decisions have been, 

I don't understand your middle paragraph but as to the last sentence, absolutely not. If we'd made the moves we needed and made the playoffs I would be very happy and would look forward to making more moves to be even better next year. I would expect us to lose to Boston quickly, but it would still be a big big step forward. 

There's an illusion around here for some that the team is better, but let's wait for the final standings. At the moment, if you actually look, we are roughly exactly where we were last year. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by PerreaultForever

[Happy Days]

Stop pucks from going in their net

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

To the first sentence, it goes way back and is too involved for the time it would take here. If I was in Buffalo I could take you out for a few beers and some wings and we could go over this for a full evening, after which you'd say ya, that might have been better. 

A few things as examples. Would not have traded all the draft capital TM traded away. Would not have traded for Evander Kane. Would not have traded for O'Reilly. Would not have traded for Lehner. Would not have traded Marcus Foligno (he'd likely be captain right now). Would not have hired any of the coaches we hired from Bylsma to Granato. Would have given Ullmark more. Would not have drafted Nylander. Would have traded Skinner and Ullmark prior to deadlines if they didn't sign for the max amount in my budget. Would have traded Reinhart earlier when he appeared to be ready to peak and thus have gotten more for him. Possibly traded Eichel earlier. 

SO MANY MISTAKES and most of them glaring errors I disagreed with when they happened. But all these things lead to other things so it's kind of impossible to answer your question reasonably. If I reversed some of TM's early mistakes we'd have already done better so draft picks would have been lower but maybe FAs would have come here. I guarantee you we wouldn't be an 11 year losing joke. You could wear a blindfold and throw darts at a spinning wheel of options and come up with better results than some of the Sabres decisions have been, 

I don't understand your middle paragraph but as to the last sentence, absolutely not. If we'd made the moves we needed and made the playoffs I would be very happy and would look forward to making more moves to be even better next year. I would expect us to lose to Boston quickly, but it would still be a big big step forward. 

There's an illusion around here for some that the team is better, but let's wait for the final standings. At the moment, if you actually look, we are roughly exactly where we were last year. 

Thought you meant you could have gotten them to the playoffs this year with deadline deals  

And I agree with a lot of what you said. 

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, Marvin said:

There is a part of me that thinks that Chychrun told Armstrong to send him to a team with at most 1 offencive defenceman if at all possible.  Why?  Because he would not get PP time, hence lowering his potential points and thus the value of his next contract.  To my mind, this makes sense given what we heard from LA's GM about why they ended talks with Arizona and why the ask from Adams was higher than Ottawa's: Armstrong was going to do him a solid and avoid sending him to a team where he would not be a clear #1 or #2 offencive D unless the offer was significantly better.  So Armstrong used the Sabres as leverage against Ottawa once he knew he wasn't getting a Tim Murray trade from Adams.

Doubt that.  Arizona sent him to the wherever they hit the best offer. 

[Marvin]

One thing that will definitely improve our record: no national TV games.

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Thought you meant you could have gotten them to the playoffs this year with deadline deals  

And I agree with a lot of what you said. 

This year would have been difficult because of the goalie situation. As a GM this year I would have made the Chychrun deal but I doubt it would have been enough without a goalie. 

This team simply isn't built for tough checking playoff style hockey and we are seeing the results of that.

[FrenchConnection44]

On 3/20/2023 at 5:47 AM, Night Train said:

Anyone that still endorses a missed trade this past month as the reason for failure is in serious denial. 

They do NOT play D at all and allow opponents to own the middle lane of the ice.  Float and watch.  

So what they need going forward is better or new coaching. Hit the weight room. Get an edge to their play. Find a goalie to go with Levi because these 3 are not it. More leadership types. 

Agreed. Coaching? I wonder if Granato knows how to coach any kind of defensive system? Aside from, “you four stand here, here, here, and here. Try not to let them get a shot too close in.” Our defense in our zone is terrible. PK or 5 on 5. And an unimaginative PP. I like Granato. Just not sold on him as a legit upper tier coach. 

Adams has generally done a decent job constructing the team. Not sure about some of his accumulation of defensemen (or failure to do so) aside from the top 3 guys. These last 2-3 weeks have been a massive let down. A wounded Dahlin and injured Samuelsson haven’t helped. Chychrun for the next two years would also have been great. It’s a bummer we could not pull that off. What is the deal with Rian Johnson? Not re the Sabres and just as a player? Just not seeing it. 

Hard to know after this breakdown what player will want to sign with the Sabres as a free agent without gross overpayment? Adams has to get another goalie - priority 1. And a starting defenseman - priority 2. And another two way veteran forward who can be a leader. Horvat would have been a good one. 

Players have to have an improved training regimen. Do we need a new trainer and/or strength and conditioning staff? We shouldn’t have just one guy as that but have a whole department dedicated to the science of building the best and strongest hockey player body possible out of the raw mold that enters the building. Several need to add 5-10 lbs of muscle this off season (Power needs to add 15-20 over the next 3 off seasons), get better balanced and stronger on their skates, and play with a more toughness. We are among the softest teams in the league. If not the softest. Don’t have to become the broad street bullies. Just more physically and mentally tough. 
 

The Pegula’s have had a tough year with Kim. Hope she continues to recover. Franchise needs her leadership at the top and needs to build out to become a state of the art franchise. Only way to do it with a small market team in the NHL. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by FrenchConnection44

[Crusader1969]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

This year would have been difficult because of the goalie situation. As a GM this year I would have made the Chychrun deal but I doubt it would have been enough without a goalie. 

This team simply isn't built for tough checking playoff style hockey and we are seeing the results of that.

I think it’s more 

1) goaltending

2) no defensive structure 

3) no depth - team couldn’t withstand an injury to one of its Big 3 dmen.  Injured Dahlin and “hitting the rookie wall” Power has compounded the issue  

extremely optimistic about next season if all 3 areas are addressed, no matter how bad this season ends for them   
 

[Weave]

29 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

I think it’s more 

1) goaltending

2) no defensive structure 

3) no depth - team couldn’t withstand an injury to one of its Big 3 dmen.  Injured Dahlin and “hitting the rookie wall” Power has compounded the issue  

extremely optimistic about next season if all 3 areas are addressed, no matter how bad this season ends for them   
 

I’ll add 1 more to your list.

This team has yet to figure out how to get past an opponent committed to playing tight, close checking hockey.  We don’t have “something” that allows us to successfully play through it. Whatever “something” is, they need alot more of it.

[Taro T]

4 hours ago, FrenchConnection44 said:

Agreed. Coaching? I wonder if Granato knows how to coach any kind of defensive system? Aside from, “you four stand here, here, here, and here. Try not to let them get a shot too close in.” Our defense in our zone is terrible. PK or 5 on 5. And an unimaginative PP. I like Granato. Just not sold on him as a legit upper tier coach. 

Adams has generally done a decent job constructing the team. Not sure about some of his accumulation of defensemen (or failure to do so) aside from the top 3 guys. These last 2-3 weeks have been a massive let down. A wounded Dahlin and injured Samuelsson haven’t helped. Chychrun for the next two years would also have been great. It’s a bummer we could not pull that off. What is the deal with Rian Johnson? Not re the Sabres and just as a player? Just not seeing it. 

Hard to know after this breakdown what player will want to sign with the Sabres as a free agent without gross overpayment? Adams has to get another goalie - priority 1. And a starting defenseman - priority 2. And another two way veteran forward who can be a leader. Horvat would have been a good one. 

Players have to have an improved training regimen. Do we need a new trainer and/or strength and conditioning staff? We shouldn’t have just one guy as that but have a whole department dedicated to the science of building the best and strongest hockey player body possible out of the raw mold that enters the building. Several need to add 5-10 lbs of muscle this off season (Power needs to add 15-20 over the next 3 off seasons), get better balanced and stronger on their skates, and play with a more toughness. We are among the softest teams in the league. If not the softest. Don’t have to become the broad street bullies. Just more physically and mentally tough. 
 

The Pegula’s have had a tough year with Kim. Hope she continues to recover. Franchise needs her leadership at the top and needs to build out to become a state of the art franchise. Only way to do it with a small market team in the NHL. 

How much bigger / better trained do you expect 20 year old Jack Quinn or JJ Peterka to be?  19 year old Owen Power?  21 year old Peyton Krebs?  Insert name of other ridiculously young guy getting key minutes here.  Guys like Dahlin, Mittelstadt, and Cozens have gained a lot of strength the past couple of years.  These other kids will too.

[North Buffalo]

And adding Kulich, and Savoie... trading Ollie as part of a package for big tough D should help... need to sign find a tough forward too

[mjd1001]

Better goaltending is the key to this team taking a step forward next year. I think that is obvious to many.

BUT, when you watch many of the goals allowed, break down the goals, look at the replays of the goals allowed frame-by-frame, you will see the backend might be a little less responsible for those goals being allowed and the forwards helping out/being in position is more responsible than this board overall wants to place blame for.

That is not saying the backend can't get better.  Power hopefully will be better.  Samuelsson needs to be healthy, and they need at least one other guy who is a legit '2nd pair' quality guy back there to play either on the 2nd or 3rd pair.  That will help for sure.

But besides goaltending, the BEST way to keep the puck out of the Sabres net is for the forwards, as a group, to be better.  Quinn has improved a lot since earlier in the year but he still loses a lot of battles. Peterka needs to improve in this area. Cozens is a very good player overall, but anyone who thinks he is a good 2-way player needs to really watch an isolation of his game as he is awful without the puck in the back two zones.  I'm glad Krebs has gotten better, because in the first month of the season he may have been the single worst player in the league without the puck (he got better but still has a lot of work to do). But you know what? That is what you get with most young guys.  When you have talent that was taken in the first round, it usually is for offensive ability, and the play without the puck must be learned though experience, and with some guys that is a gradual, year-to-year process, not something that happens over the course of a few games.

Now, the young guys on this team will hopefully get better by next year, but again, 'better' doesn't mean good.  And if you are hoping to add some other new guys to this team (Kulich, Savoie, or any of the other young guys), you are going to be dealing with even more bad play in your own end.  Coaching is what is going to make those guys progress eventually, but no coach is going to turn them into D-zone stars overnight.  If you add 2 or 3 of your young guys to this roster, D-zone coverage is likely to be worse next year by the forwards than it is now.  Therefore, goaltending becomes critical.

You give this team average-to-above average goaltending next year that is consistentent, they are likely making the playoff.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

I think it’s more 

1) goaltending

2) no defensive structure 

3) no depth - team couldn’t withstand an injury to one of its Big 3 dmen.  Injured Dahlin and “hitting the rookie wall” Power has compounded the issue  

extremely optimistic about next season if all 3 areas are addressed, no matter how bad this season ends for them   
 

Oh I totally agree with all that. The problem with it though is that was the same thing I (and others) said at the end of last season (along with Thompson having to continue to be good, Cozens maturing and the rookies - Quinn and/or Peterka being able to play NHL level hockey - contributing, those 3 things having actually happened) and if the "plan" is just to keep building from within it'll be the same thing we are talking about at the end of next season. 

I believe in Levi, but not instantly, and thinking he will solve everything now is like buying a lottery ticket. It's possible, but chances are you just threw your money away and would have been more satisfied just buying a cup of coffee instead and going back to work with it.

[Marvin]

What needs to come from within the organisation?

1. The coaching staff must install a real defencive system.

2. The players must learn all of the defencive strategy and tactics that are required to execute the defencive system.  This includes positioning, coverage, and situational awareness.

3. The players and coaches must have a more conservative philosophy with zone breakouts, recovery when the opponents breakout, and backchecking.

4. The coaching for the penalty kill must improve a LOT.

5. When do I start questioning the work of Mike Bales?

What needs to come from outside the organisation?

A. We need a real starting goaltender.  No compromising.

B. We need a top 4 D.  No compromising.

C. We need grittier forwards and defencemen who can play the grinding game all year.

 

 

[FrenchConnection44]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:03 AM, Taro T said:

How much bigger / better trained do you expect 20 year old Jack Quinn or JJ Peterka to be?  19 year old Owen Power?  21 year old Peyton Krebs?  Insert name of other ridiculously young guy getting key minutes here.  Guys like Dahlin, Mittelstadt, and Cozens have gained a lot of strength the past couple of years.  These other kids will too.

Like any other player that age in a great program. Heck, Wally Szczerbiak went from 210 to 240 in 3 yrs at Creighton. I follow Alabama football and most players at RB, LB, TE, add 10+ lbs of muscle (and add speed) each year they are there. Those are all 18-19-20 yr olds. So I’d expect all those guys above could add 8-10 lbs of muscle, improved speed, each year the next 2-3 years. Power was listed at 215 this year. His ultimate playing weight should be in the 235 range at peak. Maybe bigger depending on his frame. I’d say he should go near to 225ish next year. Be stronger in the legs and skate faster with greater balance. That’s the kind of growth to which I’m referring - that which happens at the better major college programs. 

[thewookie1]

How about Jokiharju for Tanev(CGY) straight up?