GDT: Sabres at Flyers 3-17-2023 7pm MSG, WGR

[steveoat87]

3 hours ago, sabresouth said:

Honest question.  How many games have we lost because of goaltending this year? 2-3, 6-8, more? We are close enough to the playoffs that almost any amount would put us in the playoffs. I know we need defense help but I'm just focusing on goaltending. Just one player could have made a huge difference. Also I know even good goalies have bad games and cost games but I'm talking about losses above what average goaltending would do. I  think we're in the 6-8 games lost solely because of poor goaltending. 

I had the same thought the other day.  I thought at least 5 games.

[dudacek]

Just so I'm clear, what happened in that whole sequence that mattered?

No Sabres stepped up to fight a Flyer and made you feel better about how much their game sucked?

Edited March 18, 2023 by dudacek

[steveoat87]

It all started in the first period.  The Sabres looked slow as molasses.  For every skate taken, there was a Flyer on top of them.  To me it looked over in the first period -- no adjustments, nothing to counter what the Flyers were doing.  When I think of teams on the verge, I look no further than the '95 Yankees.  They seemed to make progress throughout the end of the year and you had little doubt they were on the verge of something.  I haven't seen this yet from this Sabres team.  Certainly, good goal-tending would take them further (I know I can't hope for Mariano Rivera, but at least some improvement here).

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Sidc3000 said:

Actually Tage had two really good hits at the Caps game and I saw at least one good hit last night. We don’t know if  DG is telling or not taking these guys not to hit.  I’m just going on my observations and these guys haven’t been physical all season. They use their sticks and try to poke pucks away. They dump the puck and hope their speed will get them to the puck before the defender hits them. Cozens was way more physical last season than this season.  

"one good hit" doesn't equate to playing physical but that doesn't really matter. The team isn't physical, on this we agree. 

Are you really saying though that they would be more physical or they want to be more physical but Granato tells them not to and doesn't let them play physical? I can't believe that. If so, fire Granato yesterday. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

They sure did.  That is when they knew the game was over.  4-1 score and no Sabres answers the bell.  

Why do we carry Greenway if he won’t take in a goon like DesLauriers?   Greenway was a willing combatant when he skated alongside Foligno and the other big guys in Minnesota.   Is he going to change his game? 

This talk that DG is going to improve his game and make him score more is nonsense.   We needed him to take on DesLauriers, that is not a job for Kyle.   
 

Two possible explanations in my mind for why he doesn't play the way he did beside Foligno. One, he doesn't feel this team would have his back and doesn't want to fight for guys like that. Two, he doesn't want to be here. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, Sidc3000 said:

@PerreaultForever and I disagree because he doesn’t think that DG would try and change Greenways game and I believe he would. I think DG would have him focus on scoring instead of having him be physical and hit people one way or another. I heard Greenway was hard on the forecheck. The only thing I’ve seen was how he can freeze the put in the corner but he hasn’t been remotely physical 

But how does that make any sense at all. We already have scorers. Converting tougher guys into scorers rather than being tougher guys isn't what this team needs. Granato seems like a smart hockey guy so I can't believe he'd not know that. 

To me trading for Greenway was a last minute attempt to "do something" to address obvious weaknesses, but Greenway isn't ready willing and able to take on that role. It's not that different from him signing Hayden. tried for a guy with more hockey ability this time, but got less physicality. Marginal moves on marginal players and the glaring holes remain. 

[JohnC]

6 hours ago, Pimlach said:

They sure did.  That is when they knew the game was over.  4-1 score and no Sabres answer the bell.  

Why do we carry Greenway if he won’t take on a goon like DesLauriers?   Greenway was a willing combatant when he skated alongside Foligno and the other big guys in Minnesota.   Is he going to change his game now?  

This talk that DG is going to improve his game and make him score more is just nonsense.   We needed him to take on DesLauriers, that is not a job for Kyle.   
 

The problem with the Sabres has absolutely nothing to do with willingness to fight. That is a phantom issue imagined by old school fans who pine for the hooligan era of hockey that existed more than a generation ago. A willingness to fight addresses none of our obvious deficiencies that were on display against the Flyers.  Playing hard and tough have nothing to do with fighting. There is no fighting in Olympic hockey and college hockey. Fighting is not allowed in football, basketball, baseball, genuine wrestling etc. If people are so enamored and captivated with fighting in NHL, they should instead watch MMA, pro wrestling and pro fighting events. 

The Sabres were too loose and not engaged defensively (including forwards) to keep up against a team that played harder and tougher. How many times were Flyer players uncovered when they got off a goal scoring shot? The Sabres lost to a more active and engaged team. I turned the channel and watched one of the tournament basketball games. It was much more entertaining. Fighting is simply stupid and a doesn't address the real problems that hinder this team. 

[Sidc3000]

3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

"one good hit" doesn't equate to playing physical but that doesn't really matter. The team isn't physical, on this we agree. 

Are you really saying though that they would be more physical or they want to be more physical but Granato tells them not to and doesn't let them play physical? I can't believe that. If so, fire Granato yesterday. 

None of us know what DG is saying or isn’t saying . I’m just making an  inference since DG wanted him so bad because he saw potential in him back in the day on top of seeing that he hasn’t been physical or even gritty. 

[Sidc3000]

4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Two possible explanations in my mind for why he doesn't play the way he did beside Foligno. One, he doesn't feel this team would have his back and doesn't want to fight for guys like that. Two, he doesn't want to be here. 

I’m not  saying fighting but it would be nice if he stood up for his new team. If he doesn’t want to be here then Adams ignored his  #1 rule when bringing players to the Sabres. They have to want to be there.

[Sidc3000]

4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

But how does that make any sense at all. We already have scorers. Converting tougher guys into scorers rather than being tougher guys isn't what this team needs. Granato seems like a smart hockey guy so I can't believe he'd not know that. 

To me trading for Greenway was a last minute attempt to "do something" to address obvious weaknesses, but Greenway isn't ready willing and able to take on that role. It's not that different from him signing Hayden. tried for a guy with more hockey ability this time, but got less physicality. Marginal moves on marginal players and the glaring holes remain. 

Well then greenway isn’t even playing his own game. That is exactly what he was known for, physical, especially on the forecheck, strong defensive-minded winger. 
 

 

[OverPowerYou]

I can’t believe we need the sharks to win tonight to keep our season alive. WHELP

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

The problem with the Sabres has absolutely nothing to do with willingness to fight. That is a phantom issue imagined by old school fans who pine for the hooligan era of hockey that existed more than a generation ago. A willingness to fight addresses none of our obvious deficiencies that were on display against the Flyers.  Playing hard and tough have nothing to do with fighting. There is no fighting in Olympic hockey and college hockey. Fighting is not allowed in football, basketball, baseball, genuine wrestling etc. If people are so enamored and captivated with fighting in NHL, they should instead watch MMA, pro wrestling and pro fighting events. 

The Sabres were too loose and not engaged defensively (including forwards) to keep up against a team that played harder and tougher. How many times were Flyer players uncovered when they got off a goal scoring shot? The Sabres lost to a more active and engaged team. I turned the channel and watched one of the tournament basketball games. It was much more entertaining. Fighting is simply stupid and a doesn't address the real problems that hinder this team. 

You set up a strawman argument here to prove a non existent point. Nobody said they had to "fight", what we said is they had to stand up, push back and play more physical. All of that is still part of hockey and has absolutely nothing to do with bygone eras. 

The advocates of soft hockey always make these arguments absolutes when that's not what they are at all. Watch other teams. Watch the top teams. Every single one of them is more physical than the Sabres, and the ones that are a little softer tried to toughen up at the deadline, because they know what playoff hockey requires. 

 

30 minutes ago, Sidc3000 said:

I’m not  saying fighting but it would be nice if he stood up for his new team. If he doesn’t want to be here then Adams ignored his  #1 rule when bringing players to the Sabres. They have to want to be there.

He wouldn't know. Probably assumed he'd want to play for Granato. 

[PerreaultForever]

23 minutes ago, Sidc3000 said:

Well then greenway isn’t even playing his own game. That is exactly what he was known for, physical, especially on the forecheck, strong defensive-minded winger. 
 

 

I watched the Bruins Wild game today and I can see why the Wild probably decided to dump Greenway. The Wild play really fast, faster than we do (most of the time) and they have many guys who play heavy and physical. They out hit the Bruins and Foligno wasn't even in their lineup. Looking at that team I can see how they might feel Greenway was too slow to play with their top forwards and superfluous in terms of bringing physicality, so they ditched him for what they could get. 

Adams on the other hand took him hoping Granato could get more out of him. In all likelihood, Minnesota beat us on another trade. 

[Sidc3000]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I watched the Bruins Wild game today and I can see why the Wild probably decided to dump Greenway. The Wild play really fast, faster than we do (most of the time) and they have many guys who play heavy and physical. They out hit the Bruins and Foligno wasn't even in their lineup. Looking at that team I can see how they might feel Greenway was too slow to play with their top forwards and superfluous in terms of bringing physicality, so they ditched him for what they could get. 

Adams on the other hand took him hoping Granato could get more out of him. In all likelihood, Minnesota beat us on another trade. 

I’m under the impression that DG thinks he can get more out of Greenway and that’s why Adams took him.  He did have slightly better stats in previous years. I’m wonder if they think he could give the team a strong net front presence. I guess we’ll see what happens next season

16 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You set up a strawman argument here to prove a non existent point. Nobody said they had to "fight", what we said is they had to stand up, push back and play more physical. All of that is still part of hockey and has absolutely nothing to do with bygone eras. 

The advocates of soft hockey always make these arguments absolutes when that's not what they are at all. Watch other teams. Watch the top teams. Every single one of them is more physical than the Sabres, and the ones that are a little softer tried to toughen up at the deadline, because they know what playoff hockey requires.

 

well said

[LGR4GM]

My favorite bs argument is tall equals toughness or grit. Just as an aside. 

[JohnC]

52 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You set up a strawman argument here to prove a non existent point. Nobody said they had to "fight", what we said is they had to stand up, push back and play more physical. All of that is still part of hockey and has absolutely nothing to do with bygone eras. 

The advocates of soft hockey always make these arguments absolutes when that's not what they are at all. Watch other teams. Watch the top teams. Every single one of them is more physical than the Sabres, and the ones that are a little softer tried to toughen up at the deadline, because they know what playoff hockey requires. 

 

He wouldn't know. Probably assumed he'd want to play for Granato. 

Your strawman argument that you color me with is utter BS. On this issue you offer the same nonsensical response. You and your pugilistic allies say it is not about fighting when you and your allies argue about the lack of fighting by the Sabres. My position is consistent. Play harder and tougher. That has nothing to do with fighting. That isn't promoting soft hockey; it's the opposite. 

If you are so enamored with fighting then just go to a to a MMA or pro fighting match and get your vicarious bloodthirsty thrills there. The Sabres certainly have deficiencies. Idiotic, contrived fighting is not one of them. 

[Pimlach]

On 3/18/2023 at 4:09 PM, JohnC said:

The problem with the Sabres has absolutely nothing to do with willingness to fight. That is a phantom issue imagined by old school fans who pine for the hooligan era of hockey that existed more than a generation ago. A willingness to fight addresses none of our obvious deficiencies that were on display against the Flyers.  Playing hard and tough have nothing to do with fighting. There is no fighting in Olympic hockey and college hockey. Fighting is not allowed in football, basketball, baseball, genuine wrestling etc. If people are so enamored and captivated with fighting in NHL, they should instead watch MMA, pro wrestling and pro fighting events. 

The Sabres were too loose and not engaged defensively (including forwards) to keep up against a team that played harder and tougher. How many times were Flyer players uncovered when they got off a goal scoring shot? The Sabres lost to a more active and engaged team. I turned the channel and watched one of the tournament basketball games. It was much more entertaining. Fighting is simply stupid and a doesn't address the real problems that hinder this team. 

You missed my point.  DesLauriers and his cronies had a comfy 4-1 lead and they definitely wanted to fight someone, anyone.  They were going after Krebs and then Okposso and no one responded.  I was upset at the zero response by Greenway, or anyone else.  

Greenway was a menacing figure on Minnesota, now he is as quiet as a church mouse without Reaves and Foligno on his line.  Maybe he doesn’t want to hurt his knuckles for this group?  If he can’t be a deterrent to teams pushing around our skill players then what will he be?   Is Granato gonna transform him into a high skill player?  Well let’s see how that turns out.  He is already 26, he is slow, and he has a poor shot.  He is not Tage Thompson #2.  The only thing they have in common is height.  If he isn’t using his best physical gift - size - he isn’t going to be a factor.  Adam’s told us he brings something we need. Ok?   What is it?  
 

This team can have all the skill in the world and they will never win a playoff series until they push back and  maybe even push first.  And stop dismissing my logical  and valid comments as antiquated, old era (hooligan, Neanderthal, etc) hockey.   I know how the league works and how the game has evolved.   I’ve been watching, playing, coaching, administrating, and following the game since I was 6.  Almost every cup winner in the past 12 years has been a physical team - or at least have had several players that could answer to that game.  I am not asking to bring back the 75 Broad Street Bullies, I am asking for the team to defend themselves, show some pride, and not get laughed at on their home rink.  Which happened again the next game versus Boston and again against versus Nashville.  All at home  

Boston game - Frederick literally punched out Dahlin, drew blood, no penalty.  Cozens answered the next period and took on Frederick.  Five minute major. 

Preds game - Thompson said in his interview he was challenged for his hit on Glass.  Our best player had to fight some bum named Sherwood.  He answered.  Five minute major.   Life should have been very uncomfortable for Sherwood after that fiasco.  Think about what would have happened to Sherwood if he started a fight with Bergeron or Pastrnak?   He would have been looking over his shoulder all game  

So Dahlin, Cozens, and Thompson are going to get majors for fighting, and possibly get hurt, and you tell me fighting is not part of the game?  

Watch the playoffs. 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

You missed my point.  DesLauriers and his cronies had a comfy 4-1 lead and they definitely wanted to fight someone, anyone.  They were going after Krebs and then Okposso and no one responded.  I was upset at the zero response by Greenway, or anyone else.  

Greenway was a menacing figure on Minnesota, now he is as quiet as a church mouse without Reaves and Foligno on his line.  Maybe he doesn’t want to hurt his knuckles for this group?  If he can’t be a deterrent to teams pushing around our skill players then what will he be?   Is Granato gonna transform him into a high skill player?  Well let’s see how that turns out.  He is already 26, he is slow, and he has a poor shot.  He is not Tage Thompson #2.  The only thing they have in common is height.  If he isn’t using his best physical gift - size - he isn’t going to be a factor.  Adam’s told us he brings something we need. Ok?   What is it?  
 

This team can have all the skill in the world and they will never win a playoff series until they push back and  maybe even push first.  And stop dismissing my logical  and valid comments as antiquated, old era (hooligan, Neanderthal, etc) hockey.   I know how the league works and how the game has evolved.   I’ve been watching, playing, coaching, administrating, and following the game since I was 6.  Almost every cup winner in the past 12 years has been a physical team - or at least have had several players that could answer to that game.  I am not asking to bring back the 75 Broad Street Bullies, I am asking for the team to defend themselves, show some pride, and not get laughed at on their home rink.  Which happened again the next game versus Boston and again against versus Nashville.  All at home  

Boston game - Frederick literally punched out Dahlin, drew blood, no penalty.  Cozens answered the next period and took on Frederick.  Five minute major. 

Preds game - Thompson said in his interview he was challenged for his hit on Glass.  Our best player had to fight some bum named Sherwood.  He answered.  Five minute major.   Life should have been very uncomfortable for Sherwood after that fiasco.  Think about what would have happened to Sherwood if he started a fight with Bergeron or Pastrnak?   He would have been looking over his shoulder all game  

So Dahlin, Cozens, and Thompson are going to get majors for fighting, and possibly get hurt, and you tell me fighting is not part of the game?  

Watch the playoffs. 

Greenway is hurt. So don't expect him to be your designated gladiator. 

Fighting is very limited in the playoffs. The playoffs are noted for hard and tough play. Hooligans and goons are not getting ice time because there is too much at stake. 

The main problem with the Sabres has little to do with having enough tough guys. The undercutting problem relates to having enough talent, especially in net and on the blue line. That's a reality that too many people don't want to face. To many people want to create this mirage (falsehood) that this team is too weak. It's not. It's the lack of talent at critical positions. 

[Marvin]

On 3/18/2023 at 7:49 PM, LGR4GM said:

My favorite bs argument is tall equals toughness or grit. Just as an aside. 

You would think that fans of a team that had Mike Peca on it would know better.

[SwampD]

On 3/18/2023 at 7:49 PM, LGR4GM said:

My favorite bs argument is tall equals toughness or grit. Just as an aside. 

 

20 hours ago, Marvin said:

You would think that fans of a team that had Mike Peca on it would know better.

They do. He just can’t not comment on this topic.

… and nobody said that tall equals toughness and grit,… ever.