Why you shouldn't be so harsh on GMs (Or, PA was right all along!)

[JohnC]

31 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

Based on the article, I look at the trade very differently.  It seems now that Terry likely told Jbot to get rid of ROR and get it done before the bonus was to paid.  Under those circumstances he did very well in the end.

The way you portrayed the ROR episode is the way I remember it. The indignant billionaire was not going to give more money away to this publicly disgruntled athlete. I don't blame the owner for his negative response to this particular player. 

[SabresVet]

FWIW, I know someone who has covered the team for some time.  Trust me or don't, not my concern.

Terry was against taking Russian players for years and demanded the O'Reilly trade after those end-of-season comments.  He also pushed for the Skinner contract extension.   Before that, he was spending wildly, chose to retain Regier, and then had the fiasco with LaFontaine, while seeing Murray and Botterill get hired and fail.    

I am appreciating that, under Adams, ownership has authorized spending ~130M on Thompson, Cozens, and Samuelsson.  And I fully expect Dahlin to get a significant contract as well shortly.  

Sure, there's a lot left to be done and leaving the arena after the Dallas game reinforced that.  It's good to see them spending to retain and not being a farm system for the large market teams now. 

[mjd1001]

4 hours ago, Marvin said:

Which brings up a question from other boards: are the Sabres the Arizona Coyotes of the east?  The argument runs as follows:

Cap floor team.  Rookie GM.  Rookie Coach.  No big FA signings.  No trading futures for immediate help.  Still problems in goal, on defence, and with overall depth.  "Players who want to be here" is an excuse to cut payroll to the bone.  Two years running looks like a long-term trend.

Maybe, but here is the key thing to look at.  Are the Sabres that team in perpatuity?  Or is that just a quick stop on a journey to something else?

To me it appears all those things you say may be true, but they aren't a permanent feature of this team, the Sabres may be (have been) there, but SOME of those things are just temporary. I'm fine with that.

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

You are just detailing the differences between the teams, I already know all those things

I was engaging in the argument being laid out by another poster. Technically the things he mentioned are currently true: thus the “truth in the middle” thing. As mentioned in my post, the extensions alone will bump up our payroll and the extensions are evidence, obviously, of internal growth 

Then you're ignoring the reasons why there's a surface level similarity by doing that. 

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

What if Terry's meddling (defined to me as the owner on a macro level telling the GM how to achieve the organizational goal of winning the Cup... First no restraint on spending/let's go for it, then a dig up the foundation teardown tank, then accelerate the rebuild then Economic Effective Efficient) brought the Sabres back to what worked so well for decades: the lean mean overachieve small market little engine that could? Which is where Terry started off and which might have carried right on if Darcy had been able to sensibly tap into fewer financial constraints? I'll hope for that and that the meddling is gone or limited and when the time is ripe the financial support will be there. I always said Terry COULD be the perfect owner. It's the slow jamming Jimmy Fallon rebuild that's making me nervous and suspicious.

So are you for defending Terry, supporting him, or what?  What is your position on his performance to date and your thoughts on his future plan?   
 

[Thorner]

14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Then you're ignoring the reasons why there's a surface level similarity by doing that. 

No, I’m not ignoring anything, you just aren’t happy with the way I’m classifying it. Bias/narrative is harmful when it goes unacknowledged, when one hides their true intent. Im not doing that.I’m simply telling you that those “surface level things” are what I’m classifying as the “part” I consider true. I’m not saying these things are as important going forward as the positives, in terms of predicting future performance 

believe it or not, I think there’s actually merit in pointing out how things ARE, not entirely focusing on how we predict they WILL GO.

This season, we WERE a cap floor team

we DO have a rookie GM

we DO have a first time coach 

we DID do the “no big FA signings“ thing

These are some similarities pointed out - the other side of the equation, the hopefully much more predictive side, bodes much better for us 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Thorny

[oddoublee]

54 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

FWIW, I know someone who has covered the team for some time.  Trust me or don't, not my concern.

Terry was against taking Russian players for years and demanded the O'Reilly trade after those end-of-season comments.  He also pushed for the Skinner contract extension.   Before that, he was spending wildly, chose to retain Regier, and then had the fiasco with LaFontaine, while seeing Murray and Botterill get hired and fail.    

I am appreciating that, under Adams, ownership has authorized spending ~130M on Thompson, Cozens, and Samuelsson.  And I fully expect Dahlin to get a significant contract as well shortly.  

Sure, there's a lot left to be done and leaving the arena after the Dallas game reinforced that.  It's good to see them spending to retain and not being a farm system for the large market teams now. 

Whether you know someone or not - this was my 'suspicion' all along with the Pegula's. To add to it - even the salary Eichel got was too much too early. I also suspect that it was Pegula who pushed the captaincy on Eichel. This is Kim and Terry's team, 100% - and it has been run in a wildly immature way to back that sentiment up.

The difference now - McDermott and Beane are having success 'seemingly' calling the shots; and it has translated over to the Pegula learning to trust the same process on the Hockey side. Remember - after Rex Ryan - Head Coaching candidates were telling the Bills they will come only if they have control. Period. Before we give Pegula too much credit on McDermott - he hired him for personal reasons - against the will of his management team. Terry got lucky. His gushing over McDermott's wrestling history was the biggest eye roll speak in history. But maybe it was that bond that allowed him to trust McDermott to be the guy calling the shots...? IDK

Lot of words to say...I hope my guess is right in that he is letting KA and Donny G control the ship more than previous GM's and Coaches - because the Pegula's stink at it. 

[SabresVet]

2 minutes ago, oddoublee said:

Whether you know someone or not - this was my 'suspicion' all along with the Pegula's. To add to it - even the salary Eichel got was too much too early. I also suspect that it was Pegula who pushed the captaincy on Eichel. This is Kim and Terry's team, 100% - and it has been run in a wildly immature way to back that sentiment up.

The difference now - McDermott and Beane are having success 'seemingly' calling the shots; and it has translated over to the Pegula learning to trust the same process on the Hockey side. Remember - after Rex Ryan - Head Coaching candidates were telling the Bills they will come only if they have control. Period. Before we give Pegula too much credit on McDermott - he hired him for personal reasons - against the will of his management team. Terry got lucky. His gushing over McDermott's wrestling history was the biggest eye roll speak in history. But maybe it was that bond that allowed him to trust McDermott to be the guy calling the shots...? IDK

Lot of words to say...I hope my guess is right in that he is letting KA and Donny G control the ship more than previous GM's and Coaches - because the Pegula's stink at it. 

I had heard they drove the EIchel deal, the captaincy and were none too pleased when Jack wanted out.  Cannot confirm that, but suspect as well.  

The Pegula's, prior to the health issues, tended to trust those they hired/inherited, and when results did not come they axed those people.  They just didn't make good decisions on leaders and the revolving door continued.  

McDermott wisely saw an opportunity in Buffalo after their front office and coaching staff was in complete misalignment.  He demanded authority to clean it up and of course they were in a tough position, but acquiesced.  Paul Hamilton has reported they later regretted granting that control, but the die is cast.  

I think the Pegula's took too long to understand pro sports and it showed in their hiring/retained management from 2011-2021 with the Sabres and 2014-2017 with the Bills.  Regardless, they were all in with McDermott because everything before was a cluster and it was clear he had a plan.  Adams' hire was borne of trust issues they had with the previous 2 GM's.  

 

 

[Pimlach]

58 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

I had heard they drove the EIchel deal, the captaincy and were none too pleased when Jack wanted out.  Cannot confirm that, but suspect as well.  

The Pegula's, prior to the health issues, tended to trust those they hired/inherited, and when results did not come they axed those people.  They just didn't make good decisions on leaders and the revolving door continued.  

McDermott wisely saw an opportunity in Buffalo after their front office and coaching staff was in complete misalignment.  He demanded authority to clean it up and of course they were in a tough position, but acquiesced.  Paul Hamilton has reported they later regretted granting that control, but the die is cast.  

I think the Pegula's took too long to understand pro sports and it showed in their hiring/retained management from 2011-2021 with the Sabres and 2014-2017 with the Bills.  Regardless, they were all in with McDermott because everything before was a cluster and it was clear he had a plan.  Adams' hire was borne of trust issues they had with the previous 2 GM's.  

 

 

Pegula got A LOT of help finding McDermott from the league itself.   Rex Ryan was the advice of Russ Brandon, a relic from a failed era.  They would have been better off working from the league’s diversity list, which is full of talented people ready for a shot   

The NFL does not want dog franchises, and even the small markets bring value to their brand if they show real passion for the sport.  TV revenue is king.  

Pegula is a good business man that can see business operations talent   That was Adams front office job prior to becoming GM.    Adams had Pegulas ear and attention, and he fit the Efficient/Economic model they were going to - Boterill would not comply with it.  

Thankfully for the fans, Adams is actually showing quite a bit of ability in the GM role.  So Pegula should get credit for giving Adams a shot.   He will get more credit if he continues to stay out of the way on the hockey side of the business in the future  

 

[Quint]

22 hours ago, Thorny said:

Speaking of jimmy and terry 

 

F Jimmy and Russell. Johnny and Jimmy are where it's at.

 

[Quint]

18 hours ago, SabresVet said:

I had heard they drove the EIchel deal, the captaincy and were none too pleased when Jack wanted out.  Cannot confirm that, but suspect as well.  

The Pegula's, prior to the health issues, tended to trust those they hired/inherited, and when results did not come they axed those people.  They just didn't make good decisions on leaders and the revolving door continued.  

McDermott wisely saw an opportunity in Buffalo after their front office and coaching staff was in complete misalignment.  He demanded authority to clean it up and of course they were in a tough position, but acquiesced.  Paul Hamilton has reported they later regretted granting that control, but the die is cast.  

I think the Pegula's took too long to understand pro sports and it showed in their hiring/retained management from 2011-2021 with the Sabres and 2014-2017 with the Bills.  Regardless, they were all in with McDermott because everything before was a cluster and it was clear he had a plan.  Adams' hire was borne of trust issues they had with the previous 2 GM's.  

 

 

 

18 hours ago, oddoublee said:

Whether you know someone or not - this was my 'suspicion' all along with the Pegula's. To add to it - even the salary Eichel got was too much too early. I also suspect that it was Pegula who pushed the captaincy on Eichel. This is Kim and Terry's team, 100% - and it has been run in a wildly immature way to back that sentiment up.

The difference now - McDermott and Beane are having success 'seemingly' calling the shots; and it has translated over to the Pegula learning to trust the same process on the Hockey side. Remember - after Rex Ryan - Head Coaching candidates were telling the Bills they will come only if they have control. Period. Before we give Pegula too much credit on McDermott - he hired him for personal reasons - against the will of his management team. Terry got lucky. His gushing over McDermott's wrestling history was the biggest eye roll speak in history. But maybe it was that bond that allowed him to trust McDermott to be the guy calling the shots...? IDK

Lot of words to say...I hope my guess is right in that he is letting KA and Donny G control the ship more than previous GM's and Coaches - because the Pegula's stink at it. 

One of my pet peeves is the all-pervasive wrong use of apostrophes. When I went to university, one single misspelling or grammatical error resulted in one grade point off. Guys, if you don't know how to use an apostrophe, DON'T USE THEM. They're usually not needed.

[Weave]

33 minutes ago, Quint said:

 

One of my pet peeves is the all-pervasive wrong use of apostrophes. When I went to university, one single misspelling or grammatical error resulted in one grade point off. Guys, if you don't know how to use an apostrophe, DON'T USE THEM. They're usually not needed.

Oh man.  You are going to have a field day with the “of” instead of “have” users here.

[sabrefanday1]

32 minutes ago, Weave said:

Oh man.  You are going to have a field day with the “of” instead of “have” users here.

or perpatuity ( I think he meant to spell perpetuity). Yep you have come to the wrong place if you are looking for proper gramrer and spelling LOL 

[nfreeman]

22 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

Based on the article, I look at the trade very differently.  It seems now that Terry likely told Jbot to get rid of ROR and get it done before the bonus was to paid.  Under those circumstances he did very well in the end.

What is the basis in the article for the bolded?  The article doesn't mention TP, JB or ROR.

This assertion is more #hammymath.

[GASabresIUFAN]

18 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

What is the basis in the article for the bolded?  The article doesn't mention TP, JB or ROR.

This assertion is more #hammymath.

You know very well and it was widely reported at the time that TP instructed Jbot had to get the trade done before the bonus was paid.  That’s not even debatable.  The article discusses that many owners tell their GMs to get this player or dump that player.  

It’s reasonable to think that Terry not only told Jbot to get ROR gone before the bonus but also behind sending ROR out in the first place.  No GM sends out his No. 2 center without a substantial reason and the owner telling you to get it done is one such reason. 
 

 

[JohnC]

37 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

What is the basis in the article for the bolded?  The article doesn't mention TP, JB or ROR.

This assertion is more #hammymath.

As @GASabresIUFAN stated, it was widely reported that the owner insisted that ROR be traded before the bonus clause kicked in. And that's exactly what happened.

[Taro T]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

As @GASabresIUFAN stated, it was widely reported that the owner insisted that ROR be traded before the bonus clause kicked in. And that's exactly what happened.

That's true.  But there is no evidence that the origin of the idea to punt O'Reilly came from ownership.  We're agreed that once the decision to punt him was made that the owners wanted him gone before the bonus kicked in regardless of how that affected the return.

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

That's true.  But there is no evidence that the origin of the idea to punt O'Reilly came from ownership.  We're agreed that once the decision to punt him was made that the owners wanted him gone before the bonus kicked in regardless of how that affected the return.

None of us can say for sure. But when it is widely reported (which means a variety of different sources), it is very probable that the numerous unsubstantiated claims are true. Certainly, the numerous claims would not be allowed to be presented in a court room trial, but for our level of standard I am more than comfortable to give credence to the claim. 

[nfreeman]

48 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You know very well and it was widely reported at the time that TP instructed Jbot had to get the trade done before the bonus was paid.  That’s not even debatable.  The article discusses that many owners tell their GMs to get this player or dump that player.  

It’s reasonable to think that Terry not only told Jbot to get ROR gone before the bonus but also behind sending ROR out in the first place.  No GM sends out his No. 2 center without a substantial reason and the owner telling you to get it done is one such reason. 
 

 

Again:  what is the basis in the article -- which you said showed that it was likely that TP ordered JB to trade ROR -- for your assertion?

It seems pretty clear that there was zero basis for this in the article.

None of us knows for sure, and you are certainly welcome to believe that TP ordered the trade.  But you cannot claim that Source X helps prove Theory Y if X doesn't say anything about Y -- and making that claim is #hammymath.

 

17 minutes ago, Taro T said:

That's true.  But there is no evidence that the origin of the idea to punt O'Reilly came from ownership.  We're agreed that once the decision to punt him was made that the owners wanted him gone before the bonus kicked in regardless of how that affected the return.

This.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

None of us knows for sure, and you are certainly welcome to believe that TP ordered the trade.

I never said that.  I said after reading the article “I look at the trade differently”.  I never said the article discussed the trade or confirmed the opinion.  You’re reading into my comment and assuming things I never said.  

Maybe you should not assume.  
 

 

[nfreeman]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

I never said that.  I said after reading the article “I look at the trade differently”.  I never said the article discussed the trade or confirmed the opinion.  You’re reading into my comment and assuming things I never said.  

Maybe you should not assume.  
 

 

What?

Here's what you said:

Quote

Based on the article, I look at the trade very differently.  It seems now that Terry likely told Jbot to get rid of ROR and get it done before the bonus was to paid.  

 

Are you seriously claiming that you didn't say that the article supports the theory that TP ordered the trade?

When you are caught slinging #hammymath, the solution is not more #hammymath.

[Randall Flagg]

I remember reading that Botterill put out feelers on ROR to other teams during that season's trade deadline. 

[Marvin]

3 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I remember reading that Botterill put out feelers on ROR to other teams during that season's trade deadline. 

Correct.  That was the original sin for the ROR deal.  We are sooooooo lucky Tage turned out this well.

[SabresVet]

22 hours ago, Quint said:

One of my pet peeves is the all-pervasive wrong use of apostrophes. When I went to university, one single misspelling or grammatical error resulted in one grade point off. Guys, if you don't know how to use an apostrophe, DON'T USE THEM. They're usually not needed.

Quint, your lookin' for da great white and mist the killer whale headed in you're direcshun.  Its ackshully gonna be hard too correct all dis gramma and misspelings here.   

[Quint]

24 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

Quint, your lookin' for da great white and mist the killer whale headed in you're direcshun.  Its ackshully gonna be hard too correct all dis gramma and misspelings here.   

All I care about are the apostrophes.