Would you consider sitting Vanek for Novotny?

[LabattBlue]

One negative note on an otherwise glorious day-after in Sabres history...

 

I'm sorry, but Vanek is bringing very little and unless Lindy wants to use him in front of the net on every PP, I have to believe he may come out of the lineup when Hecht gets back, or even before then, replace him with Novotny.

 

 

Fire away.

[Kristian]

Vanek has been the weakest link so far in this post-season. He seems disinterested, out of place, and lazy most of the time and seems to have lost whatever spark he had, several months ago.

 

Doubt he's gonna contribute anything down the stretch, I say sit him down for the rest of the season, barring 2-3 injuries. He's young, he'll be back next year.

[bruceleeroy]

i agree that vanek has been sub par but i also have to bring maxim to this arguement.i know he has some goals probably 2 or 3 maybe a couple of assits which is great but how many giveaways and stupid plays has he done as well. im not saying sit him but i can also say he is another weak link in this playoff series

[Orange Seats]

Maxim gets frustrated and that works against him, but he has some brilliant plays.

[Peace Frog]

I'm all for swapping Vanek for Novotny.

[topshelfcookies]

Vanek has been the weakest link so far in this post-season. He seems disinterested, out of place, and lazy most of the time and seems to have lost whatever spark he had, several months ago.

 

Doubt he's gonna contribute anything down the stretch, I say sit him down for the rest of the season, barring 2-3 injuries. He's young, he'll be back next year.

I agree that Vanek has not played well this post-season, but I wouldn't go as far as saying he seems disinterested.

 

Against Philly, after a poor game 1, Vanek I thought did a nice job mixing it up and seemed to almost take a page out of Kotalik's playbook. If he isn't producing points, then at least try to play a bit more physically.

 

Last night Vanek looked more overwhelmed than he did disinterested and lazy, at least to me. I'm probably being too easy on him, and I understand fans' frustrations with him, but I think it's good for Lindy, and Vanek for Thomas to stay in the lineup. While we're in the middle of what hopefully is a Cup run, part of this process is learning for the future as well. If we advance past Ottawa, we're going to need Vanek to start finally putting some pucks in the net. Also, there's nothing worse than a talented player not learning how to produce in the playoffs. Ruff is doing the right thing by letting Vanek work his way through this process. Not every player is going to deliver a Chris Drury like performance in their 1st playoff season.

 

While Vanek has been quiet, I don't think he's become a liability out there on the ice yet. Against teams like Philly, he's a valuable member of the PP...he's probably the best player on the team at deflecting shots from the point while in front of the net. His line, with Gaustad and Pominville played well, for the most part vs. Philly, and while Vanek didn't get on the scoresheet much, his line played great with him out there, and they were able to draw some penalties as well.

 

Finally...going back to one of my earlier points, part of this playoff run has to be used to help develop talents like Roy, Pominville, Miller and Vanek for the future. Lindy knows what he's doing with these guys, and I think the right move is to leave Vanek on the ice.

[Rabbit151]

Thomas Vanek. YOU, are the weakest link. Good-Bye.

[LabattBlue]

 

Finally...going back to one of my earlier points, part of this playoff run has to be used to help develop talents like Roy, Pominville, Miller and Vanek for the future.

I disagree completely. You don't use the playoffs as a breeding ground to develop young players. That is what the minor leagues, training camp and the pre-season are for. When the stakes get high, you have to go with the players that give you the best chance to win and at this point, I'm not sure where Vanek fits into the equation. I'm not saying he isn't going to turn his play around at some point in the playoffs, but from where I sit today, it seems unlikely.

[deluca67]

I disagree completely. You don't use the playoffs as a breeding ground to develop young players. That is what the minor leagues, training camp and the pre-season are for. When the stakes get high, you have to go with the players that give you the best chance to win and at this point, I'm not sure where Vanek fits into the equation. I'm not saying he isn't going to turn his play around at some point in the playoffs, but from where I sit today, it seems unlikely.

 

I'm with 'topshelf' on this one.

 

You stay with Vanek like you stood behind Miller. To show no faith in the kid at this point will hurt the Sabres down the road.

 

He has one goal but is also an even +/-. You have to remember he is still a young kid. He gave you a ton of offense during the regular season I think he's earned his spot. If you sit him down at this point you might as well be prepared to trade him during the offseason. It will be a label that will stay with him.

 

Anyway. Who know's? The way these playoffs have been going he might score a hat trick (along with Pominville because he hates to see anyone get a hat trick by themselves) and be the first star. ;)

[ThePolishSabre]

YES.

[LabattBlue]

I'm with 'topshelf' on this one.

 

You stay with Vanek like you stood behind Miller. To show no faith in the kid at this point will hurt the Sabres down the road.

 

He has one goal but is also an even +/-. You have to remember he is still a young kid. He gave you a ton of offense during the regular season I think he's earned his spot. If you sit him down at this point you might as well be prepared to trade him during the offseason. It will be a label that will stay with him.

 

Anyway. Who know's? The way these playoffs have been going he might score a hat trick (along with Pominville because he hates to see anyone get a hat trick by themselves) and be the first star. ;)

I guess as long as the Sabres are winning and Hecht is hurt, it's a moot point, but what do you do when Hecht is ready to play? Who goes to the press box...Pyatt, Pominville or Vanek? Tough call.

 

YES.

Thanks for not rambling. :P :P

[Taro T]

I agree that Vanek has not played well this post-season, but I wouldn't go as far as saying he seems disinterested.

 

Against Philly, after a poor game 1, Vanek I thought did a nice job mixing it up and seemed to almost take a page out of Kotalik's playbook. If he isn't producing points, then at least try to play a bit more physically.

 

Last night Vanek looked more overwhelmed than he did disinterested and lazy, at least to me. I'm probably being too easy on him, and I understand fans' frustrations with him, but I think it's good for Lindy, and Vanek for Thomas to stay in the lineup. While we're in the middle of what hopefully is a Cup run, part of this process is learning for the future as well. If we advance past Ottawa, we're going to need Vanek to start finally putting some pucks in the net. Also, there's nothing worse than a talented player not learning how to produce in the playoffs. Ruff is doing the right thing by letting Vanek work his way through this process. Not every player is going to deliver a Chris Drury like performance in their 1st playoff season.

 

While Vanek has been quiet, I don't think he's become a liability out there on the ice yet. Against teams like Philly, he's a valuable member of the PP...he's probably the best player on the team at deflecting shots from the point while in front of the net. His line, with Gaustad and Pominville played well, for the most part vs. Philly, and while Vanek didn't get on the scoresheet much, his line played great with him out there, and they were able to draw some penalties as well.

 

Finally...going back to one of my earlier points, part of this playoff run has to be used to help develop talents like Roy, Pominville, Miller and Vanek for the future. Lindy knows what he's doing with these guys, and I think the right move is to leave Vanek on the ice.

I'd agree with you on that observation.

 

The guy was in college 2 years ago and he is now playing for a chance at getting 1/2 way to having his name engraved on the SC against some of the top players in the world. He looked like a college player in awe of Jason Spezza on that goal.

 

He also looked lost IMO in game 1 of the Filly series. His play did improve in that series and I would expect it to improve in this series as well.

 

I would not pull him out of the lineup. IF, Jochen is ready, I actually would keep Jochen in the press box until after the Otters have won a game. The guy has been very injury prone of late and a few extra days of healing would not be a bad thing. After Jochen is healthy (and the Sabres have lost at least once), I would probably pull Pyatt although Pyatt is playing well enough to stay in the lineup.

 

I don't think that Pyatt gets enough shifts as the 12th skater with Hecht in the lineup to justify keeping him in the lineup over Vanek. Lindy typically pulls the 12th skater on the 1st shift post-powerplay to give Hecht (typically) or Grier (occassionally) an additional shift. Vanek plays on the powerplay, so he isn't losing that much ice time due to that philosophy. Pyatt does not typically play on the powerplay and will lose shifts due to this.

 

If Lindy keeps Vanek in the lineup AND does decide to bench him except for powerplay, I don't think it messes up the lines that much as Grier and Hecht can alternate the extra shift on the 4th line. If Lindy pulls Vanek, that sends a very bad message to the player that is supposed to be your main sniper for the next few seasons. Also, Vanek has been a big game player at lower levels and I would rather him get experience at the NHL level to try to develop that instinct at the NHL level.

 

If the Sabres are losing games due to Vanek, fine, bring Pyatt back into the lineup (and Novotny if Hecht or someone else goes down injured), but until he is costing the Sabres games, there is too much upside and too little downside IMO to make him the 1st guy back into the pressbox.

[Hawk]

Thomas Vanek = Tim Connelly

 

Be patient. ;) ;)

[Two or less]

you guys are crazy!

 

Novotny is a good player, but there is no guarentee how he will play in the playoffs. Esspicially against Ottawa, and in playoff atmoshere like this. Why would people want Novotny on the ice? So he can win a faceoff that we normally wouldn't win if his center gets thrown out of the circle?

 

Vanek can change a game. He is a big time athlete, if he has a good game, he can pull a Connolly-type preformance at any moment. Not to mention he is a big body and he does hit, and did it well vs. Philly.

 

Vanek's lack of preformance doesn't lose games for us, but if he plays well, it could win us games. Novotny, if he plays well, it won't really hurt too much or if he stuggles, it won't hurt.

 

Keep Vanek in the lineup until Hecht returns, then we can talk. But for Novotny... no way.

[haseoke]

i say if we lose a game and vanek plays poorly, sit him. i dont think its throwing his career away, this is the motherfuggin playoffs, not a time to develop players

[Saber61]

Thomas Vanek = Tim Connelly

 

Be patient. ;) ;)

 

AGREED! a concussion and 2 years later and we have ourselves the next connolly :D

[haseoke]

we've had a lot of good fortune with our picks lately. for every tim connoly theres an erik rasmussen.

[BayAreaSabresFan]

By the way, I think Taylor P. is playing well. I love the first line and I wonder what comes of it if JH comes back.

[Kristian]

Thomas Vanek = Tim Connelly

 

Be patient. ;) ;)

 

I agree, the situations look very similar at this point.

 

But let's not forget that Tim wasn't doing anything for his team at that point in his career, and this is the playoffs, not a time to cuddle guys.

 

I'm not saying Vanek can't become a huge player in this league, I'm just saying he's playing poorly right now. In fact, I fully expect him turn it around at some point, just not this year.

 

That being said though, I've been wrong many many many many times before, and will be many many many times again :D

[nfreeman]

I'd be amazed if Novotny got in over Vanek. I think Vanek has indeed been looking overwhelmed and a step or 2 slow/behind the play, but I also think he has been hustling. This is not Miro mailing it in.

 

The interesting question is whether it's Vanek or Pyatt who sits when Jochen returns. DaveB's analysis above is pretty convincing, but I think Pyatt has been just a bit more effective than Vanek, so my guess is that Vanek gets the hook.

[Rock DJ]

The fact is Vanek didn't HUSTLE. I'm all for keeping him if he shows heart. But you keep the guys in that are giving it their all, not the ones that are standing around watching the other team score. Vanek is doing the latter, I would keep Pyatt in.

I just don't see the hunger in Vanek's play.

[LALALALALALAFONTAINE]

Everyone mistook Connolly's confusion for lack of effort or heart or hunger. He seems a little overmatched, but there is no substitute for NHL playoffs.

 

That said, you play the players that give you the best chance to win. Right now, that means Vanek plays over Novotny. If Hecht comes back, then I sit Vanek in favor of Pyatt.

[Dump & Chase]

Vanek is doing his part. No one is perfect on this team, but together, they are a force. Vanek will come around, as Roy did. His talent is 10 feet out from the net, and if we play a tight scoring game, he is the guy you want cruising around hte cage with those soft hands. He is start to drive the net, as Ruff presses him to go the high traffic area in the next few games. In track meets, his top end speed is not as good as the other guys IMO. But he has been working hard, and has NOT been a liability by any means. If is aint broke, you dont fix it. This is the mantra of the NHL playoffs. We loose 2 games in a row -- and then you take a look at the roster. REmeber what Vanek did in the regular season. He can erupt at any moment.

[topshelfcookies]

Vanek is doing his part. No one is perfect on this team, but together, they are a force. Vanek will come around, as Roy did. His talent is 10 feet out from the net, and if we play a tight scoring game, he is the guy you want cruising around hte cage with those soft hands. He is start to drive the net, as Ruff presses him to go the high traffic area in the next few games. In track meets, his top end speed is not as good as the other guys IMO. But he has been working hard, and has NOT been a liability by any means. If is aint broke, you dont fix it. This is the mantra of the NHL playoffs. We loose 2 games in a row -- and then you take a look at the roster. REmeber what Vanek did in the regular season. He can erupt at any moment.

 

Not sure I agree there...in my opinion, Ottawa's 1st goal was a direct result of Vanek not working hard enough. I really liked Vanek's hustle in the series with Philly, but it didn't seem to show up in Game 1 vs Ottawa. Like I stated before, and LALALALA pointed out, sometimes confusion and being overwhelmed can appear as not hustling.

 

Vanek admitted in the paper that he hasn't been playing well... http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060...?tbd2064678.asp

saying:

"I'm not playing my best hockey," Vanek said. "I think I'm still trying to get adjusted and play the role I've been put in. I just want to chip in and be smart defensively. I'm still learning. . . . If I play eight minutes, I gotta try to do my best with the eight minutes I have."

 

To me...you leave him in. Give Jochen some extra rest, he's been a mess, physically for the last month. Pyatt is in the midst of one of his "I'm going to actually try" stretches, but everyone knows that those stretches only last for about a week. By the time Game 3/4 rolls around, Pyatt will probably have lost interest again. I swear, I think Pyatt has ADHD. Attention Defecit Hustle Disorder.

 

In a series vs. Ottawa, you need guys that can score, and the fact is, Vanek is a playmaker, albeit a young one. Let's go to the stats...Vanek isn't the only other Rookie having some trouble finding his way in the postseason.

 

Vanek - Buf

7GP 1G 0A 1PT Even

Parise - NJ

5GP 1G 0A 1PT -1

Eaves - OTT

6GP 1G 0A 1PT -2

Phaneuf - CAL

7GP 1G 0A 1PT -8

Meszaros - OTT

6GP 1G 0A 1PT +2

Prucha - NYR

4GP 1G 0A 1PT -3

 

In fact, of Rookies that had somewhat similar regular season stats as Vanek, and who made the postseason, only Jussi Jokinen of Dallas has experienced any type of postseason production.

Jokinen - Dal

5GP 2G 1A 3PT +1

 

Looking through the Postseason Rookie scoring leaders, none of those guys (Beauchemin - ANH, Pominville - BUF and Ranger - TB, came close to Vanek's regular season stats.

 

Regular Season

Vanek - BUF

81GP 25G 23A 48PTS -11

Beauchemin - ANH/CLS

72GP 8G 28A 36PTS +2

Pominville - BUF

57GP 18G 12A 30PTS -4

Ranger- TB

76GP 1G 17A 18PTS +5

 

My point is, the rookie scoring leaders in the playoffs, have come from nowhere. Vanek is talented...he finshed 7th in the league among rookies in PTS, in a rookie class that has been lauded for it's depth and talent.

 

Finally, despite poor stretches of play, Lindy dressed Vanek for 81 of 82 games. Ruff didn't do that with any other rookie on the team. If Ruff felt that benching Vanek was the best way to motivate him, don't you think he would have pulled that move during the regular season, when apparently it's ok to develop players? Vanek isn't playing any worse right now than he did during stretches of the regular season, he just isn't finding the net. Leave him out there and wait for Pyatt's ADHD to kick in before you putt Hecht back in the lineup.

[gregkash]

I wouldn't sit Vanek for Novotny. I would sit Vanek for Hecht.