Is UPL Still the Plan

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

The goalie position and blue line unit each need to be upgraded. Patching one hole without addressing the other hole is self-defeating. If you add another 4-5 blueliner to the mx and bring in a #1 goalie (suggested names have been made in other threads), then the roster will certainly be strengthened. Would it be better to bring in another top four defenseman to pair with Power, resulting in Joki dropped down to the third pairing? Yes, but is that option available on the trade market or even free agent market at a reasonable price? I'm not sure that it is. Without question, the priority is the goalie position. And without question the Sabres have more assets than most to deal with. 

You hit it smack on the head and then you started to rationalize. 

Better goaltending is definitely needed.   UPL is still young for a goalie and has been inconsistent.  Comrie is a known backup, and no more than that.  

Better Defense is needed - Look at the xGA/100 data.  It says that even Dominik Hasek would struggle with our defensive play.  

If we believe that Dahlin, Samuelsson, and Power are 1, 2, 3 then we need to fix 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.  We also need to fix the way the forwards play or replace the ones that don't/won't/can't play both ways. 

Adams cannot fall in love with his players.  He needs better ones to improve the team's GAA.  We are not going to score much more than we already do.  You want to win more games?  Fix the goals against.  

Of course trade options will be available, if we are willing to give up something to get something.  A good GM takes care of the reasonable price part of it,  that is his job.  What he cannot control is if players do not want to come to Buffalo, and that is still real.  

Adams hands are not tied unless Pegula has constraints on spending that he is not telling us about.  Adams has both the assets and the cap room, he just needs to do it.  

 

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

I have a question. Since goalies are the most important position, why do we not use more lower draft picks on grabbing a few each year? Say picks 4-7 should be just goaltenders in the hope you find the right guy. 

Please no insults, just asking 

See others have addressed the space issue, so I’ll add that with space come opportunity, which is what young goalies need more that anything. These guys not only need a team, they need to play regularly for that team in order to develop.

What teams tend to try to do is a version of this: the 24-year-old moves up to the big club, the 22-year-old moves into a prominent role with the minor league team, the 20-year-old plays in college or Europe and you pick another one to move in behind them.

If you’ve got 3 20-year-olds it’s going to be hard to to sign and develop them all.

Doesnt mean you can’t pick them and only sign the best of them 2 years later though.

Another thing is the quality of goalies available in the draft. The Sabres hinted the reason they reached on Leinonen last year was the lack of goalies available who had NHL potential. In the 4th and 5th rounds you want to be picking a guy with some NHL potential and you literally might think the best goalies left do not have that potential.

 

2 hours ago, LTS said:

It's not just the D.. it's everything about how all 5 players cover the defensive zone.

The Sabres are monumentally bad at defensive zone coverage and there's I believe it's as much the system as it is the players.

 

This will slowly gain momentum until it is fixed. The Sabres play the way they do by choice.

They also have a history of overreaction: have they overreacted to the extreme defend mode of Ralph by adopting an extreme attack mode under Donnie. Will that ultimately prove his downfall, or is it part of a process and a slow course correction is coming?

Edited March 11, 2023 by dudacek

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Pimlach said:

You hit it smack on the head and then you started to rationalize. 

Better goaltending is definitely needed.   UPL is still young for a goalie and has been inconsistent.  Comrie is a known backup, and no more than that.  

Better Defense is needed - Look at the xGA/100 data.  It says that even Dominik Hasek would struggle with our defensive play.  

If we believe that Dahlin, Samuelsson, and Power are 1, 2, 3 then we need to fix 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.  We also need to fix the way the forwards play or replace the ones that don't/won't/can't play both ways. 

Adams cannot fall in love with his players.  He needs better ones to improve the team's GAA.  We are not going to score much more than we already do.  You want to win more games?  Fix the goals against.  

Of course trade options will be available, if we are willing to give up something to get something.  A good GM takes care of the reasonable price part of it,  that is his job.  What he cannot control is if players do not want to come to Buffalo, and that is still real.  

Adams hands are not tied unless Pegula has constraints on spending that he is not telling us about.  Adams has both the assets and the cap room, he just needs to do it.  

 

Dahlin is a true one now, but he certainly wasn’t two years ago.

I said this before, but this board glosses over the flaws of Samuelsson and Power in their slots in a way it does not with Jokiharju and Lyubushkin.

Mule and Owen flash being good 2/3s but they are not yet good, consistent ones.

[Contempt]

38 minutes ago, Taro T said:

The organization can have more than 6 goalies playing professionally.  Back in the day Kolzig was loaned to the Amerks because the Caps didn't have room for him in the AHL but they wanted him getting action.  Much more recently, Binnington was loaned to San Antonio.

Get a solid G pipeline rolling and then start converting some of those 5-7th rounders into 3rd rounders or better and keep the cream of the crop in house.

The first sentence of my response I said they should draft one every year.

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, Contempt said:

The first sentence of my response I said they should draft one every year.

And we are in agreement there.  But there is room for more than 6 goalies in the system and pointing that out was the purpose of the post you're responding to.

[Pimlach]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Dahlin is a true one now, but he certainly wasn’t two years ago.

I said this before, but this board glosses over the flaws of Samuelsson and Power in their slots in a way it does not with Jokiharju and Lyubushkin.

Mule and Owen flash being good 2/3s but they are not yet good, consistent ones.

Fair.  The flaws of Samuelsson are probably the most glossed over.    Power gets, and deserves, the rookie pass for some of his mistakes.  On a good defensive team Power would not see 24 minutes per night either.  He is looking very tired right now.   What a long rookies season for him in terms of games, minutes, and responsibilities.  

I don't like the D zone play of our forwards very much.  Too many D-zone breakout failures happen when the defenseman does his job and gets the puck to the forward only to see the forward turnover the puck.  Some of it is age and experience related.  Some of it is that forward does not commit to defense.  The most minus forwards are vets like VO and Mitts, they have no excuse.  

[Contempt]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

And we are in agreement there.  But there is room for more than 6 goalies in the system and pointing that out was the purpose of the post you're responding to.

There is technically but the more you have the harder it gets. Europe is a decent stash and the new Swedish rules help a bit with that.

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Contempt said:

There is technically but the more you have the harder it gets. Europe is a decent stash and the new Swedish rules help a bit with that.

Considering it's been over a decade since the Sabres have had more than 1 good goalie at any time and even getting to 1 has been a struggle; that'd be a good problem to have.  

[Contempt]

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Considering it's been over a decade since the Sabres have had more than 1 good goalie at any time and even getting to 1 has been a struggle; that'd be a good problem to have.  

They are great at collecting ***** goalies though. We're full to the brim with those.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

You hit it smack on the head and then you started to rationalize. 

Better goaltending is definitely needed.   UPL is still young for a goalie and has been inconsistent.  Comrie is a known backup, and no more than that.  

Better Defense is needed - Look at the xGA/100 data.  It says that even Dominik Hasek would struggle with our defensive play.  

If we believe that Dahlin, Samuelsson, and Power are 1, 2, 3 then we need to fix 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.  We also need to fix the way the forwards play or replace the ones that don't/won't/can't play both ways. 

Adams cannot fall in love with his players.  He needs better ones to improve the team's GAA.  We are not going to score much more than we already do.  You want to win more games?  Fix the goals against.  

Of course trade options will be available, if we are willing to give up something to get something.  A good GM takes care of the reasonable price part of it,  that is his job.  What he cannot control is if players do not want to come to Buffalo, and that is still real.  

Adams hands are not tied unless Pegula has constraints on spending that he is not telling us about.  Adams has both the assets and the cap room, he just needs to do it.  

 

You and I are on the same track. Nothing I said contradicted the good points that you added to my response. This is still a developing team and an incomplete team. The addition of Greenway and Stillman is an indication that the GM is aware of the weaknesses that still need to be addressed. 

You want the team to play a more rugged brand of hockey. As this team is currently constructed it simply isn't capable of playing that style of hockey. This team is built more to play a fast-paced north/south style of game. The addition of Greenway and Stillman is an acknowledgement that this roster needed changes in personnel to better play the style of hockey that you favor. 

I don't believe that Pegula is constraining the GM in any fashion, including the budget. I do believe that the GM has been smart in acknowledging where this team was at, is at and where it needs to be. The semi-reconstruction of the roster he inherited was not going to be reworked in one offseason or two. To his credit the GM has made a number of solid smaller deals such as Jost, Lyubushkin, Stillman and Greenway that has added some bulk to the roster, and he did it without giving up much in assets. I believe because of our favorable cap situation and where this team is in its development (more advanced) that he needs to make a couple of more aggressive moves (wisely giving up assets) to address our noted deficiencies. 

Just a sidenote: I'm not worried about players not wanting to play here. If a player is reluctant to come here then I don't want that player here. There are other options to choose from. I'm not worried about that issue. 

 

 

 

[Marvin]

The reason I go easy on Samuelsson and Power is because they are a sophomore and rookie.  They play well enough consistently enough that I can't think of a good reason to worry about the.  When I get upset at one of their gaffes, I tell myself that they are still learning and improving.

[JohnC]

9 minutes ago, Marvin said:

The reason I go easy on Samuelsson and Power is because they are a sophomore and rookie.  They play well enough consistently enough that I can't think of a good reason to worry about the.  When I get upset at one of their gaffes, I tell myself that they are still learning and improving.

One doesn't have to be highly knowledgeable about hockey to recognize that Power is going to be a top tier defenseman in this league. In his rookie year, he already plays at a high level and does it with unnatural confidence for such a young player. The big surprise, a pleasant one, is that he has demonstrated more offensive ability than I thought he had. While Dahlin is a dazzler Power is a less ostentatious player. This tall rookie is on his way to being an elite defender like his Swedish teammate. 

[Pimlach]

17 minutes ago, Marvin said:

The reason I go easy on Samuelsson and Power is because they are a sophomore and rookie.  They play well enough consistently enough that I can't think of a good reason to worry about the.  When I get upset at one of their gaffes, I tell myself that they are still learning and improving.

Yes.   We all do that.  

 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Contempt said:

They are great at collecting ***** goalies though. We're full to the brim with those.

collected them $750K at a time

[Taro T]

7 hours ago, JohnC said:

One doesn't have to be highly knowledgeable about hockey to recognize that Power is going to be a top tier defenseman in this league. In his rookie year, he already plays at a high level and does it with unnatural confidence for such a young player. The big surprise, a pleasant one, is that he has demonstrated more offensive ability than I thought he had. While Dahlin is a dazzler Power is a less ostentatious player. This tall rookie is on his way to being an elite defender like his Swedish teammate. 

Wish he would have ANY confidence in his shot.  His absolute unwillingness to shoot unless he has absolutely no other options is maddening.  We get it, he's young and not man strong yet.  But the simple fact he NEVER shoots should give him an edge should he actually shoot.  It also will open up those passing lanes he's always looking for.

And, if you had the success he's had stepping into new environments that he's had, you'd be a very confident MoFo too.  His confidence is very much a product of the success he's had stepping up.  Again, just wish he'd actually shoot on more than a rare occassion.

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, Taro T said:

Wish he would have ANY confidence in his shot.  His absolute unwillingness to shoot unless he has absolutely no other options is maddening.  We get it, he's young and not man strong yet.  But the simple fact he NEVER shoots should give him an edge should he actually shoot.  It also will open up those passing lanes he's always looking for.

And, if you had the success he's had stepping into new environments that he's had, you'd be a very confident MoFo too.  His confidence is very much a product of the success he's had stepping up.  Again, just wish he'd actually shoot on more than a rare occassion.

I agree that his hesitancy to shoot is maddening. Generalizing that issue, I would say that the hesitancy to shoot plagues much of this roster. It drives me crazy. But to Power's credit he has expanded his offensive game as exhibited by a greater willingness to carry the puck to the net or deeper into the zone. 

You rightly noted that this youngster hasn't yet come close to attaining the level of strength that mature adults have. So, I will give him some slack on that issue. By all accounts he's dedicated to the sport and is a hard worker. In time he will be more physically imposing, and I'm sure that will also translate into more confidence in his offensive game. 

Sometimes we forget that he is a rookie. It doesn't take make of a leap of faith to project him to be an elite hockey player. It might even come quicker than the timeline that Dahlin had. Think about that!

 

[Quint]

 

[apuszczalowski]

11 hours ago, Quint said:

 

Having played Non-Professional Co-Ed Beer league level hockey as a goalie for many years, I can honestly say those kinds of break away type shots are the worst to try and defend. Coming in so slowly like that and up close, you try to wait them out and stay up, but because they are coming in so slow, if you start to make your move and they see it they can just hang on and fake you out. The only ones I hate more are the shots when you fully expect them to shoot high and the plucks just seems like it was glued to the ice and slides in

[Drag0nDan]

On 3/17/2023 at 9:26 PM, apuszczalowski said:

Having played Non-Professional Co-Ed Beer league level hockey as a goalie for many years, I can honestly say those kinds of break away type shots are the worst to try and defend. Coming in so slowly like that and up close, you try to wait them out and stay up, but because they are coming in so slow, if you start to make your move and they see it they can just hang on and fake you out. The only ones I hate more are the shots when you fully expect them to shoot high and the plucks just seems like it was glued to the ice and slides in

Just put a big clock on the ice and set a timer.  Start it when the player touches the puck.  Pucks gotta be in the back of the net by... i dunno 5 seconds? 

[Brawndo]

On 3/11/2023 at 10:45 AM, Eleven said:

I know this one guy who would prefer it if the Sabres spent one draft pick per year (no matter the place in the draft) on a goalie, but so far the team isn't listening...

Would this be the same guy who read a book stating that NFL Teams should draft a Quarterback every year and He feels the same should be done with goalies and happens to own the team? 

[Night Train]

[GASabresIUFAN]

Hopefully, the plan is for all 3 Sabres goalies to retire or play elsewhere next season.

[JohnC]

Pursue a goalie in the offseason, such as Saros, if available. Would we have to give up assets, including first round draft pick/s? Absolutely. There are a few prospects that I would consider untouchable, such as Savoie, but getting a goalie such as Saros or whomever would do more to elevate this team next year than addressing any other position. 

The GM can't only fully stay on his internal development course. He's got to get aggressive and address the goalie and blue line unit this offseason. It's beyond past time to make a bold team to energize this roster and fan base. The pursuit of Chyrun is an indication that our GM is willing to make an aggressive move to accelerate the process.

[Drag0nDan]

On 3/11/2023 at 12:25 PM, dudacek said:

Dahlin is a true one now, but he certainly wasn’t two years ago.

I said this before, but this board glosses over the flaws of Samuelsson and Power in their slots in a way it does not with Jokiharju and Lyubushkin.

Mule and Owen flash being good 2/3s but they are not yet good, consistent ones.

Power is 20, and a rookie. Muel is 23 with about 150 starts.  Their best hockey is likely in front of them.  I agree - should not pencil them into spots and limit what you're doing with the roster because you want Muel on the first pairing - etc. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 minutes ago, Drag0nDan said:

Muel is 23 with about 150 starts.

Samuelsson has 102 NHL games under his belt.   

Dahlin is our most experienced blueliner @ 342 games.  Bush is second at 266, Joki 3rd at 260, Bryson 4th at 164, and Stillman 5th at 148.  Next is Mattias at 102, followed by Clague (88 games) and Power. 

Not exactly a heaping load of experience.  Bush is the only one with playoff experience totaling 7 games.