Could the NHL be expanding to 34 Franchises with New Teams in Atlanta and Houston?

[Eleven]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I’ve never commented on the Buffalo sports market of today. Nice try.  

 

 

This took a minute and a half.  I'm sure there's plenty more.

[GASabresIUFAN]

21 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Sports market in Atlanta: Braves, Georgia, ... occasionally the Falcons.

If the nhl was smart, they'd put a team in Charlotte. 

Can’t Raleigh to close.  

[shrader]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

I keep wondering why the NHL thinks that it is not in its best interest to have stability for a longer time.

If they actually did it, they are clearly only interested in immediate cash from the expansion fee. I would hope the union would fight it, but I forget if they were at all successful in getting a piece of those fees. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by shrader

[Night Train]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Owners are more interested in the TV market and TV revenue than they are in the fanbase. Houston is a big market that can become a rival to another Texas city that is already in the NHL i.e. Dallas. 

Completely get that.  Must show a base season ticket number (15,000 roughly) with a deposit. Why take them seriously otherwise ? Is their actually a hockey market that can sustain beyond a few years of initial corporate investment ?  

 Quebec City could hit that fig in abouut an hour. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, shrader said:

If they actually did it, they are clearly only interested in immediate cash from the expansion fee. I would hope the union would fight it, but I forget if they were at all successful in getting a piece of those fees. 

The expansion fee is a big part of it, but it also could be a way to increase the value of the national TV contract without negatively affecting the Canadian TV rights deal with Rogers and TSN.

The NFL is at a point where they don't really care what they do to the fans attending games in person because the TV deals are so ridiculously huge.  The NHL has to see that and say, if we could just expand our footprint, we'd be that too.  (They'd be wrong, but that wouldn't be the 1st thing they were wrong about.)

[John Tucker]

I’d be fine with Houston…Atlanta, no way.  Give Quebec another shot.  They deserve it

[Porous Five Hole]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I find it hilarious that people who don’t live here, don’t know anything about the sports market here and don’t why the Thrashers failed are commenting on whether or not a new team would prosper here.

 

Are you offering ? If yes, tell me everything. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Porous Five Hole

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I find it hilarious that people who don’t live here, don’t know anything about the sports market here and don’t why the Thrashers failed are commenting on whether or not a new team would prosper here.

 

I am curious.  Do tell.

I do know that the Thrashers' ownership deliberately sabotaged them, but I am not aware of the full circumstances.

[shrader]

18 minutes ago, Taro T said:

The expansion fee is a big part of it, but it also could be a way to increase the value of the national TV contract without negatively affecting the Canadian TV rights deal with Rogers and TSN.

The NFL is at a point where they don't really care what they do to the fans attending games in person because the TV deals are so ridiculously huge.  The NHL has to see that and say, if we could just expand our footprint, we'd be that too.  (They'd be wrong, but that wouldn't be the 1st thing they were wrong about.)

I think that’s definitely where pro sports are headed in the US at least, where attendance doesn’t really matter all that much. And as for the tv deals, I’m assuming additional teams up there doesn’t change that much or else they’d have done it by now. 
 

And with that almighty tv dollar, we’re definitely headed into the great unknown with everything switching to streaming. 

[RochesterExpat]

This isn’t happening any time soon.

Source: interest rates

[GASabresIUFAN]

11 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Are you offering ? If yes, tell me everything. 

 

Just now, Marvin said:

I am curious.  Do tell.

I do know that the Thrashers' ownership deliberately sabotaged them, but I am not aware of the full circumstances.

It’s wasn’t so much sabotage as disinterest, incompetence and a lack of proper marketing.  One of the principal owners was Ted Turner’s son in law who I know well and he and his partners had little or no knowledge of hockey.  The group also was fractured from Day 1 as none were rich enough to be the primary owner.  You had different pieces of the group running the Thrashers vs the Hawks.  Like the Braves in Buffalo, Hockey was secondary.
 

GM Don Waddell also did a horrendous job.  When you get a chance go look at how the Thrashers drafted.  Not one 2nd rd pick in 11 years made an impact on the team except a goalie briefly.  Many of the 1st picks were busts and the team failed to win, making the playoffs just once.  Hard to build a following that way.

The stadium and the atmosphere in it were awful.  50 % of the lower bowl was sold to and arranged in corporate sections which were rarely utilized making the stadium feel dead.  Add the downtown location when most of the fans lived North of the city and you have a recipe for failure.    Downtown is even worse now than then, although they have fixed the seating issue.  

Fan location is why the Braves moved North.  

So what’s changed since 2010?  Obviously the local population has continued to grow.  The area is about 50% larger than when the Thrashers arrived in 1999.  Another big change is the growth of youth hockey on the North side of Atlanta.  We have tripled the number of rinks and there are very successful youth leagues all the way up to and beyond high school age players.  I actually live within 10 miles of 3 different rinks, two of which were built in the last 5 years.
 

My son-in-law came through these leagues and played some lower tier Jr hockey.  He ended up becoming Captain and President of the U of Tenn club hockey team.  In fact most of the local universities in the ACC and SEC as well as others Southern Universities have successful club hockey teams and some schools, like UGA are beginning the fund raising and push to become D2 or D1 NCAA programs.

All this because of the Thrashers, Canes, Pred, TB, Dallas.  Southern hockey is growing like crazy and has for the last decade.

Another piece of the puzzle is the Gladiators ECHL team.  They are highly successful, have a strong fanbase and would be a great base to re-establish hockey in the ATL. 

So should it happen? Maybe!  I think Houston and Atlanta are the biggest markets without teams.  For a new franchise to succeed, the team needs knowledgeable hockey focused local ownership and a building on the Northside of town. Those are significant hurdles.  

I do agree that 2 failed attempts are a terrible legacy, but the 2nd attempt was set up to fail.  We have seen failed markets like The Bay Area succeed when done properly and unlike 1999, there is a local hockey educated fan base that would adore having their own team.   

[Doohicksie]

3 hours ago, Brawndo said:

The question becomes does Atlanta deserve another attempt at a franchise after having two move to Calgary and Winnipeg, respectively. 

Atlanta is a great franchise incubator!

[SABRES 0311]

I just don’t see a need to try Atlanta again. Texas is a physically big state so having a second team is fine provided it’s citizens want one. 

[Doohicksie]

I think it makes sense for Houston.  Natural rivalry with the Stars.

[Taro T]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

 

It’s wasn’t so much sabotage as disinterest, incompetence and a lack of proper marketing.  One of the principal owners was Ted Turner’s son in law who I know well and he and his partners had little or no knowledge of hockey.  The group also was fractured from Day 1 as none were rich enough to be the primary owner.  You had different pieces of the group running the Thrashers vs the Hawks.  Like the Braves in Buffalo, Hockey was secondary.
 

GM Don Waddell also did a horrendous job.  When you get a chance go look at how the Thrashers drafted.  Not one 2nd rd pick in 11 years made an impact on the team except a goalie briefly.  Many of the 1st picks were busts and the team failed to win, making the playoffs just once.  Hard to build a following that way.

The stadium and the atmosphere in it were awful.  50 % of the lower bowl was sold to and arranged in corporate sections which were rarely utilized making the stadium feel dead.  Add the downtown location when most of the fans lived North of the city and you have a recipe for failure.    Downtown is even worse now than then, although they have fixed the seating issue.  

Fan location is why the Braves moved North.  

So what’s changed since 2010?  Obviously the local population has continued to grow.  The area is about 50% larger than when the Thrashers arrived in 1999.  Another big change is the growth of youth hockey on the North side of Atlanta.  We have tripled the number of rinks and there are very successful youth leagues all the way up to and beyond high school age players.  I actually live within 10 miles of 3 different rinks, two of which were built in the last 5 years.
 

My son-in-law came through these leagues and played some lower tier Jr hockey.  He ended up becoming Captain and President of the U of Tenn club hockey team.  In fact most of the local universities in the ACC and SEC as well as others Southern Universities have successful club hockey teams and some schools, like UGA are beginning the fund raising and push to become D2 or D1 NCAA programs.

All this because of the Thrashers, Canes, Pred, TB, Dallas.  Southern hockey is growing like crazy and has for the last decade.

Another piece of the puzzle is the Gladiators ECHL team.  They are highly successful, have a strong fanbase and would be a great base to re-establish hockey in the ATL. 

So should it happen? Maybe!  I think Houston and Atlanta are the biggest markets without teams.  For a new franchise to succeed, the team needs knowledgeable hockey focused local ownership and a building on the Northside of town. Those are significant hurdles.  

I do agree that 2 failed attempts are a terrible legacy, but the 2nd attempt was set up to fail.  We have seen failed markets like The Bay Area succeed when done properly and unlike 1999, there is a local hockey educated fan base that would adore having their own team.   

The 1st attempt never really failed.  It simply didn't succeed well enough for the team to actually make any money being so far from the rest of the league.  Until their final season they never drew less than 12,000 fans and even in the last year when the writing was on the wall they still exceeded 10,000 fans / game.

The real killer for them was never winning a playoff series though they usually ended up making the playoffs.  Heck even though they never had a losing record after their 2nd year, they still couldn't win a playoff round.  And thy made the playoffs that 2nd year playing in the weak western conference.  They even missed the playoffs once with a winning record playing in the stacked newly formed Patrick division.

To add insult to injury, the Calgary Flames made it to the semi-finals in their 1st year in Calgary losing to Minnesota who went on to be dismantled by the Aisles in their heyday.

[SABRES 0311]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

I think it makes sense for Houston.  Natural rivalry with the Stars.

Like the modern day, Texas version of the Hstfields and McCoys. You know without the killing and stuff.

[Doohicksie]

Just now, SABRES 0311 said:

You know without the killing and stuff.

You sure 'bout that?

[RochesterExpat]

5 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I think it makes sense for Houston.  Natural rivalry with the Stars.

It’s also the fourth largest city in the country so there’s that aspect too.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Sports market in Atlanta: Braves, Georgia, ... occasionally the Falcons.

If the nhl was smart, they'd put a team in Charlotte. 

The Braves and Bulldogs are certainly 1 and 2 in the city

 

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

If the NHL was smart, it would GTFO of the south, which wants to become its own country.

Another genius comment.  Take your political garbage elsewhere.

11 minutes ago, Taro T said:

The 1st attempt never really failed.  It simply didn't succeed well enough for the team to actually make any money being so far from the rest of the league.  Until their final season they never drew less than 12,000 fans and even in the last year when the writing was on the wall they still exceeded 10,000 fans / game.

The real killer for them was never winning a playoff series though they usually ended up making the playoffs.  Heck even though they never had a losing record after their 2nd year, they still couldn't win a playoff round.  And thy made the playoffs that 2nd year playing in the weak western conference.  They even missed the playoffs once with a winning record playing in the stacked newly formed Patrick division.

To add insult to injury, the Calgary Flames made it to the semi-finals in their 1st year in Calgary losing to Minnesota who went on to be dismantled by the Aisles in their heyday.

I didn’t live here then. I was still in Buffalo, but people say the Flames were a lot of fun.  

Edited March 6, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[Doohicksie]

10 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said:

I just don’t see a need to try Atlanta again. Texas is a physically big state so having a second team is fine provided it’s citizens want one. 

They're residents, not citizens.  (Well, citizens of the U.S....)

6 minutes ago, RochesterExpat said:

It’s also the fourth largest city in the country so there’s that aspect too.

Hell, Fort Worth is the 12th largest city in the country.  A Fort Worth - Stars rivalry would be nasty!

[SABRES 0311]

1 minute ago, Doohickie said:

They're residents, not citizens.  (Well, citizens of the U.S....)

Citizens of Houston = U.S. citizens who reside in Houston.

They are what I say they are. Crazy Texans.

 

10 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

You sure 'bout that?

No. I hope they have an epic rivalry like the Battle of Alberta.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Night Train said:

Completely get that.  Must show a base season ticket number (15,000 roughly) with a deposit. Why take them seriously otherwise ? Is their actually a hockey market that can sustain beyond a few years of initial corporate investment ?  

 Quebec City could hit that fig in abouut an hour. 

If one used the 15,000 season ticket as a baseline number for a team to qualify as a NHL worthy franchise, Buffalo wouldn't qualify. 

[matter2003]

4 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Both John Buccigross and Kevin Weekes have made cryptic tweets about possible expansion teams to both Atlanta as well as Houston in the past couple of days. 
 

given the fact that Seattle and Vegas are two of the biggest revenue teams in the NHL it would make sense to consider this from a financial standpoint. The question becomes does Atlanta deserve another attempt at a franchise after having two move to Calgary and Winnipeg, respectively. 

They should just move Arizona to somewhere else...that is a black eye for the NHL.

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

They should just move Arizona to somewhere else...that is a black eye for the NHL.

My kids asked about moving the Yotes to the ATL.  The Gladiator’s arena hold a max of 13k.  It would certainly be a better capacity than the ASU arena.  

[...]

3 hours ago, Night Train said:

 

Quebec had an owner that got wiped out financially and Colorado got the team.  That's a place they should actually revisit. Big fanbase. 

I know they get ragged on, but I always like their logo and unis.