The Problem with NOT Trading for Defense

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, Marvin said:

It is too late to complain about this season.  We do have issues in the lack of defencive picks and the lack of depth signings.  However, we do have hope that GMKA sees what we all see as the deficiencies in our defence.  Signing Lyubushkin showed that he knew that we needed his type of game in our defence.  Trading for Stillman implies that Adams wants to increase defencive toughness.  The attempted trade for Chychrun gives me hope that Adams sees the overall lack of quality in our system.

But he has to make it work.  No more excuses.

Aside 1: on other boards, people have been sharply critical of Adams for not offering up both Savoie and Kulich to get a deal done for Chychrun.  I hope Adams does not get too antsy to make a deal.  Just because we can overpay in prospects for a trade does not mean that we should overpay in prospects for a trade.

Aside 2: I really want guys who do all the boring stuff right for our 4-8 D, our bottom 6 F, and our goalkeeping.  I don't care about names.

Tbf, I would not trade Kulich or Savoie for Chychrun. 

Also Adams seems pretty calm in regards to trades. 

[tom webster]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I agree he's trying, but until he fixes it we have a problem

This is it. They obviously have acknowledged the need to better the defense and the goaltending. I also think as good as Jost has done, they feel the need for an upgrade there as well. This is the NHL, however, trying is only good for a very short time. He needs to finish the deal, even if it results in a slight, and I mean slight, overpay.

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, tom webster said:

This is it. They obviously have acknowledged the need to better the defense and the goaltending. I also think as good as Jost has done, they feel the need for an upgrade there as well. This is the NHL, however, trying is only good for a very short time. He needs to finish the deal, even if it results in a slight, and I mean slight, overpay.

I think Jost is looked at as the 4th center so they need a 3c still.

[Marvin]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I think Jost is looked at as the 4th center so they need a 3c still.

I think they expect Krebs to grow into the 3C if not one of Kulich, Östlund, or Savoie.

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think Jost is looked at as the 4th center so they need a 3c still.

 

7 minutes ago, Marvin said:

I think they expect Krebs to grow into the 3C if not one of Kulich, Östlund, or Savoie.

Krebs is starting to be used as the 3C and I think is definitely one of the players they are referring to when they say they are counting on internal growth.

[LGR4GM]

20 minutes ago, Marvin said:

I think they expect Krebs to grow into the 3C if not one of Kulich, Östlund, or Savoie.

I think Kulich is going to be a wing. 

[French Collection]

Bryson not taking the shot late last game and giving the puck away has not left my mind. He has become my and others whipping boy this season, which I think is deserved.

Bryson is small for an NHL Dman, I think we can all agree on that. Many Dmen that size need to be highly skilled to make it to the NHL.
Bryson has never been an offensive dynamo, in junior A, NCAA, AHL or NHL. He has produced some points at the lower levels but not like a Torrey Krug or Sam Girard.

I find he doesn’t have enough offensive skill to compensate for his defensive weaknesses.

He needs to be 8 Dman or AHL all star next year for this team to be improved.

KA needs to add via trade, UFA or college FA. I will lose it if this guy is 6-7 next year, never mind be out at crucial points of a must win game.

 

 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

And then there's that Power kid, who is younger than most 'prospects' but somehow never counts in these discussions about how Adams has "ignored" the defence.

The team is pretty much set for their top 3 D now and for the foreseeable future.

If they get a legit #4 via FA or trade, they then have 3 legit 3rd pairing D-men on the roster and they have 2 tweeners and Johnson to backfill those.  They have the capspace to grab another 4/5 guy in addition to the aforementioned 4.

Bring that body or 2 in house and they can easily wait for the Russian D-men, Jonhson, &/or that kid they drafted last year to be ready to step up.  They don't have to find guys to fill out th top of the roster and with Dahlin & Power both able to play 25+ minutes and Samuelsson 23, they can afford to even have a Bryson or Clague filling in provided it isn't for 1 of the top 3.  But with 1 extra D-man brought in the 1st injury replacement is  Stillman and if they find another guy too, then the injury replacement becomes the new guy, Lyubushkin, or Jokiharju.  That is pretty deep and it doesn't cost much at all to get there.

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Because he’s an NHL player and is only the 3rd of 6 we need to field a good D group.  The question remains how do will fill the other 3 slots longterm.  Anyone who brings up Lindgren and the other late rounds picks is asking to hit the lottery.  Players like those have a 15% chance of playing 100 games in the NHL and you mostly get guys like Bryson for your trouble. 

KA has used only 18% of his draft capital on D.  The league average is 33% during KA’s tenure.  Only perennial playoff teams (read teams with limited No of picks) have spent less than KA’s 18%.  For teams with a similar number of picks that last three years all have drafted more D in numbers and/or more during the first 2 rounds. If my memory serves most of the teams with 25 plus picks have drafted at least 3 D in the first 2 rounds over that period.  KA drafted one.

If this team misses the playoffs, every post mortem for the season will focus on the inadequate D and goaltending and wonder what will be done to fix them because there is no immediate help coming from the prospect pile line.

 

Good comments, but is our lack of defensive prospects really all on Adams?   Should Boterill's role be discussed?  

Lets remember that Adams has had three drafts.  His first draft he was thrust into the job during Covid and he inherited only 5 picks - 1, 2, 5, 7 and 7.   He drafted Quinn and Peterka in the first 2 rounds and that is looking pretty good right now.   He picked one defenseman, in the 7th round, that is gone. 

His second draft he stockpiled 11 picks and took defenseman Owen Power #1 overall and then Kovikov at #6.  Could have picked more but none of them would be ready now either.  

His third draft he stockpiled another 11 picks.  We had a very bare cupboard at Center so he added 3 in the first round - maybe you can complain he should have added a D but if he took his BPA and stuck to his board then I cannot argue with it.  On defense he added Lindgren (4) and Komarov (5). 

We can call Kovikov, Lindgren, and Komarov longshots but lets understand that our best D prospects should already be in Rochester and should be people drafted by Boterill and instead there is nothing there.  We do have unsigned Ryan Johnson from the Boterill era, and that is it.  

Adams opportunity is right there in front of him.  He can move some of his forwards and forward prospects in an effort to shore up his defense by trading for proven NHL defensemen.  

More experience and one really good NHL vet will help this group immensely. And yes, I think he should draft a few more defenseman earlier in the draft (he has one first and 2 seconds).

1. Dahlin - 2. Samuelsson

3. Power - 4. TBD proven NHL Vet

6/7 Lybushkin/Stillman  5. Joker

------------------------

8/9 - Ryan Johnson and Clague  can play in Rochester

[Thorner]

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Sure, you're 1 draft away, but even if we draft all defense this year 2023, those players are making an impact until 2026-2028. 

Well I know dude, that’s why the substance of my post was about how when it comes to the D, since what we are actually looking for more so is complimentary pieces to the 2 maybe even 3 studs we already have, those would best be found externally ala Chychrun 

We definitely need to add from the outside, wanted it to be the deadline, but the summer makes sense too. The key is those pieces should be reasonably attainable 

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Should Boterill's role be discussed?  

Jbot? 
4/6 of our D were acquired or drafted by Jbot.  Dahlin, Samuelsson and Bryson were Jbot’s picks.  Our only legit prospect, Johnson, was a Jbot pick.  He also traded a prospect for Jokiharju.  Basically Jbot invested 3 high round picks on defense in his 3 drafts compared to KA’s 1.

He also acquired Montour and Miller to supplement his prospect pool.  Montour is a good player who was wasted here and Miller was mediocre at best.

What more was he supposed to do?

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by GASabresIUFAN

[PerreaultForever]

The thing is we need the same things now that we needed when the season started. 

If they do not bring these people in via trades and/or free agency next year could very well be a repeat of this year with no real progress. 

Several decent FA D men out there. Goaltending likely requires a trade. 

Waiting for Levi is not the answer and might just be a lot like Godot. 

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Jbot? 
4/6 of our D was acquired or drafted by Jbot.  Dahlin, Samuelsson and Bryson were Jbot’s picks.  Our only legit prospect, Johnson, was a Jbot pick.  He also traded a prospect for Jokiharju.  Basically Jbot invested 3 high round picks on defense in his 3 drafts compared to KA’s 1.

He also acquired Montour and Miller to supplement his prospect pool.  Montour is a good player who was wasted here and Miller was mediocre at best.

What more was he supposed to do?

 

Not hire the worst ***** coach in Sabres history. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Not hire the worst ***** coach in Sabres history. 

I said that he was the wrong hire the day he was hired.  
 

That doesn’t change the fact that he do make an effort to build a good D group including 3/4 of our top 4 and our top D prospect.

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I said that he was the wrong hire the day he was hired.  
 

That doesn’t change the fact that he do make an effort to build a good D group including 3/4 of our top 4 and our top D prospect.

Botterill seemed to be really good at some things and quite oddly terrible at others. I don’t think he was a good GM ( proof pudding) but there’s no denying that at least in terms of the designation of WHO initially brought the players into the fold, Botterill is currently responsible for more of the best players on the team than anyone else 

It’s an Adams roster assembled via the talent Botterill (and even Murray) got from being terrible. Said this earlier, over such a long stretch we’ve finally cobbled together some really good players, over multiple iterations of rebuild. The GM standing, at the end, who gets the team into the playoffs is the one that gets (and deserves) the credit, though 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Thorny

[Pimlach]

4 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Jbot? 
4/6 of our D was acquired or drafted by Jbot.  Dahlin, Samuelsson and Bryson were Jbot’s picks.  Our only legit prospect, Johnson, was a Jbot pick.  He also traded a prospect for Jokiharju.  Basically Jbot invested 3 high round picks on defense in his 3 drafts compared to KA’s 1.

He also acquired Montour and Miller to supplement his prospect pool.  Montour is a good player who was wasted here and Miller was mediocre at best.

What more was he supposed to do?

 

Come on man, we are talking about the pipeline, not the roster.   In three drafts Adams added one starter in Power but with all his other picks - whether he picked 3 defenseman or 30, would not be ready yet.  I am talking about the timing.   The fact that Rochester has no NHL caliber defensive prospect is not all on Adams.  Some of it is, but not all of it.   

Dahlin and Power where consensus (sort of) FOA's.  Neither GM gets a lot of credit for those picks.  

Samuelson - great pick for JBot. 

Bryson stinks and cannot play on any other teams in this league.  

Miller- bum

Montour - he was a soft and terrible Sabre that did not want to be here, he had a good year on a Presidents trophy team, otherwise he is average (and soft)

Joker - solid, JBot salvaged that terrible Nylander pick for sure

 

 

 

[Thorner]

^i dunno if that’s a fair assessment of Montour? 

[Pimlach]

23 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

The thing is we need the same things now that we needed when the season started. 

If they do not bring these people in via trades and/or free agency next year could very well be a repeat of this year with no real progress. 

Several decent FA D men out there. Goaltending likely requires a trade. 

Waiting for Levi is not the answer and might just be a lot like Godot. 

This is pretty much true.  

Adding Comrie, Lubyshkin, Clague, and 3 rookies was not enough.  I don't think they expected the team to be this good, which is something I am leery about regarding Adams.  He needs to turn up the pace next off-season and help this core to take a big step.  

[Pimlach]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

^i dunno if that’s a fair assessment of Montour? 

It is my assessment.  He was soft, and he took shifts off, and he didn't want to be here. 

 

[Thorner]

5 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

It is my assessment.  He was soft, and he took shifts off, and he didn't want to be here. 

 

Oh whoops sorry I though it came off a cereal box thanks for the clarification 

[DarthEbriate]

The lack of ELC defensemen in Rochester is mostly on JBott at this time.

Adams could have drafted a top European D instead of Savoie/Kulich/Rosen but they're in ROC as an underager which might be less likely than as a forward. His real lack of ROC contribution was his first draft in 2020 which had only 5 picks -- and 7th round Lyckasen is still in Europe. That's the draft we can argue should have a CHLer who is now in ROC. Adams could have traded for another team's top D prospect(s) in the Eichel or Reinhart deal, but opted for Krebs and Levi. He's also is very reluctant to give up draft capital and prospects at the moment.

For JBott, you've got the 2019 and 2018 drafts that would primarily be stocking ROC with ELCs, but a 1 was traded for Montour, a 1 is still in the NCAA (Johnson), a 1 and 2 are on the Sabres top pair (Yay!) and a 3 was traded for Scandella who was later moved. Then... you get the bottom of 2018 draft with 3 European D-men. The issue there is JBott's refusal to draft in the CHL and diversify the stock. They might not be great but one of those picks might still be under team control in ROC. The bottom round European players may washout just as a CHLer/NCAAer might, but they also may simply elect not to come over and be an AHL-level player when they can stay home and play in SHL or Liiga.

If JBott makes another pick for D in 2019 and a D CHLer in 2018 and sure, they're just JAGs, but they're Sabres JAGs who can be sent up and down without waivers. Unlike Fitz, Bryson, Pilut who can get plucked if another team is in an injury crisis. They may also provide diverse skill sets and sizes.

[PerreaultForever]

In hindsight, JBot did a lot of things right. The entire "young core" of this team that everyone raves about is all JBot. Everyone except Tuch. 

There's no question, absolutely none, that he got the coaching wrong, BUT I put some of this on the Eichel situation. JBot had to hire a coach to  get along with Eichel and to motivate Eichel. Remember the first thing Kreuger was doing was getting to know Eichel and lunching with him. I really think JBot had tied hands and limited coaching options so he swung for the fences with the out of the box great motivator. Unfortunately, he struck out, but that didn't end him. ownership knew what happened there and he was fired for not wanting to fire his scouts and draft people. 

JBot made mistakes, but he was way above Murray. Whether or not KA is better remains to be seen. The holes need to be filled. 

[dudacek]

Botterill gets no credit for Dahlin or Thompson or anyone else playing well on the current team given how how those players performed when he was in charge.

The NHL is not a video game. A GM is not simply responsible for acquiring talent, he is responsible for developing talent and fostering an environment that allows talent to succeed.

Botterill was a miserable failure.

[Randall Flagg]

Botterill is my least favorite member of a Buffalo franchise front office since I started watching sports in 2005

 

By two orders of magnitude 

[Thorner]

51 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Botterill gets no credit for Dahlin or Thompson or anyone else playing well on the current team given how how those players performed when he was in charge.

The NHL is not a video game. A GM is not simply responsible for acquiring talent, he is responsible for developing talent and fostering an environment that allows talent to succeed.

Botterill was a miserable failure.

Dahlin was really good under Botterill. We’re talking historically good rookie season w/Calder nomination followed up with a pretty good sophomore frame at 19 (40 in 56)

Thompson was all of 20 at the start of the only season he was here under Botterill and played a total of 65 games 

Also Cozens wasn’t even in the NHL. He doesn’t get credit for the selection? 

Way too black and white here imo 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Thorny