The Problem with NOT Trading for Defense

[TRIP65]

26 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Never trust someone's judgement that you don't know. He's earned it? He's earned me hoping that he has something else in the works but again you and others are ignoring the reality that is smacking you in the face. There is NO internal defense help coming. None. 

Also Trip65 has been a board member for less than an hour. Not like the rest us are jumping to agree with them. 

I have little interest in getting rid of Mitts or JJP at this stage. Olofsson and Asplund though could be packaged. 

TRIP65 is 57 and been a SABRE FAN since the late 70's as a kid. Seen The best players for the Sabres. Seen trades like Turgeon bring Patty. Seen a Center wasted over money and chased away from Sabres in PECA. Been on site before a long time ago, we have sucked for many years. Don't want what I have seen to be repeated. We Don't need guys like Lieno, we need more of what built our TOP LINE. We TRADE future Prospects or young players NOT READY for guys we hold for awhile that help. We don't need a BLOCKBUSTER, we have those players. We need guys that fill ROSTER NOW. Sabres are ready just like Bills were with Allen and GOT Diggs and others to make them playoff team for 4 years under Allen.

GOING 12 years with NO PLAYOFFS should be AVOIDED!

Edited March 2, 2023 by TRIP65

[GoPuckYourself]

4 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

I'm okay with bumping Joki down to the 3rd pair, but WHO are the specific guys out there that you think can do so?

Ivan provorov, John Klingberg, Matt Dumba (having a down year, may be able to get slight discount). 

[LGR4GM]

Yet again we saw the results of this. This team has 3 NHL defenders, 2 3rd pairing guys, and nothing. 

[bob_sauve28]

 

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Yet again we saw the results of this. This team has 3 NHL defenders, 2 3rd pairing guys, and nothing. 

And yet Ryan Johnson is not beating the doors down to sign.   

[French Collection]

6 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

And yet Ryan Johnson is not beating the doors down to sign.   

I hope KA is beating down his door to sign.

[Carmel Corn]

4 minutes ago, French Collection said:

I hope KA is beating down his door to sign.

WIth or without R. Johnson, is there a weaker defense pipeline than ours?

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

WIth or without R. Johnson, is there a weaker defense pipeline than ours?

Many, but no one will actually bother to check or pay attention to those that do.

[Thorner]

Like it or not, the hardest pieces for any team to find on D are already here. Not only do we have a guy settling into a career as a likely perennial Norris contender, we have another guy that has every chance to be a legit #1. So, we’re going to have an advantage over teams on pair 1, and an advantage over teams on pair 2. It’s annoying to me as well we haven’t been more proactive in adding the complimentary pieces as there is potentially so much to gain this year but, Adams will eventually add them and our D is going to be great at that time.

The pipeline isn’t great, but when Dahlin and Power are kids, and you are only drafting to fill complimentary pieces on a D unit, you are one draft away from easily adding a couple guys with that realistic ceiling, even likely floor. 

It’s more about the immediate term: we were close on Chychrun. It was probably just not quite close enough to forgo paying the assets required to add him now, as opposed to using those assets this summer on a greater pool 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Thorny

[FrenchConnection44]

I put this in the prospects thread but probably could go here. He is considered the top college free agent on this site  ideal size. I think it’s a no brainer to pursue and sign  not as a solution but who knows? Worth a shot imo:

https://www.flohockey.tv/articles/8042640-nhl-college-free-agents-jake-livingstone-leads-list-of-top-available-ufas

Jake Livingstone, RHD, Minnesota State

A 23-year-old defenseman who has been pursued by NHL teams for each of the last three seasons, Livingstone is a strong offensive performer with size and good mobility. He’s second on his team in scoring with 30 points. He defends well on top of producing, and can be a weapon in transition.

The right-shot defenseman comes in at 6-foot-3, 205, so he has the size NHL teams are interested in. On top of that, he's got some track record with two 30-plus point seasons in college hockey and good numbers from his junior days in the BCHL. He likely tops out as a bottom-pairing defenseman, but there's a lot to like in his game.

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

WIth or without R. Johnson, is there a weaker defense pipeline than ours?

Maybe not, I think we have a few sleeper prospects but nothing close to tready.  

[LGR4GM]

12 hours ago, Thorny said:

Like it or not, the hardest pieces for any team to find on D are already here. Not only do we have a guy settling into a career as a likely perennial Norris contender, we have another guy that has every chance to be a legit #1. So, we’re going to have an advantage over teams on pair 1, and an advantage over teams on pair 2. It’s annoying to me as well we haven’t been more proactive in adding the complimentary pieces as there is potentially so much to gain this year but, Adams will eventually add them and our D is going to be great at that time.

The pipeline isn’t great, but when Dahlin and Power are kids, and you are only drafting to fill complimentary pieces on a D unit, you are one draft away from easily adding a couple guys with that realistic ceiling, even likely floor. 

It’s more about the immediate term: we were close on Chychrun. It was probably just not quite close enough to forgo paying the assets required to add him now, as opposed to using those assets this summer on a greater pool 

Sure, you're 1 draft away, but even if we draft all defense this year 2023, those players are making an impact until 2026-2028. 

[Flashsabre]

This team needs two dmen that can play right now. Upgrades to Top 4 RHD and 3rd pair LHD.

Address those two spots and this is a playoff team next year.

[Night Train]

15 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

WIth or without R. Johnson, is there a weaker defense pipeline than ours?

 That's the most astute observation.

 Rugged Defensemen who move out forwards in front of the net. Stand up opponents at the blue line. Completely finsish their checks. Don't pinch and get caught. Able to clear pucks in pressure moments without coughing it up. Poise.  Look to guard their man instead of watching the puck and seeing forwards get open shots. 

 Yes, it's nice if they have a little O to their game but having some actual D ability is lacking in 2-3 of our current backliners.

 Plus our forwards are getting caught not getting back all too often. The explanation of a more offensive style and the explanation that " those things happen with an offensive team" doesn't fly when the O cannot convert many nights. The other team do convert, knowing your roster is still a bit young and reckless. 

[JohnC]

I was impressed with the play of Stillman until he got hurt. He got in a fight and was injured. In my view, he's a third pairing caliber of player but his addition was a plus for the unit. And as others have noted our GM did make a legitimate offer, maybe the best offer to Ottawa for Chycrun, but they declined to deal with us. What's clear is that the organization recognizes more needs to be done to upgrade this unit. I'm anticipating another defenseman added to the mix this offseason. And I expect Johnson to sign with Buffalo. He's not likely to play right away but he should be in our pipeline and available within a year or so. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

15 hours ago, dudacek said:

Many, but no one will actually bother to check or pay attention to those that do.

Why do other team’s inadequate pipeline’s even matter?  

The fact is we don’t have enough to fill our needs over the next several years.  Other than Johnson, Komarov is the closest and he is a 5th rd pick, who may not be ready for another 3 year if at all.  

Depth on D has been a major weakness of rebuild 3.0 and won’t be fixed until the very stubborn GM chooses to fix it. Band-aids like Lyubushkin and Stillman won’t cut it any longer. His attempt to get Chychrun is a hopeful sign that he realizes that this is an urgent problem and can only be repaired by a trade such as Chychrun or committing to a FA. 

KA also needs to fix the pipeline. Drafting some in the first 2 rounds would help.  Possibly trading a F prospect for a D prospect would also be nice. The LA Kings have some to spare. Signing a college UFA should also be considered. 

I’d like to wake up in the Fall and see the Amerks with 3 legit prospects playing for them.  

KA has 8 current NHL players under contract or control. A minimum of two need to be upgraded starting with Power’s partner.

[dudacek]

Other teams matter when someone says our pipeline is the worst in the league.

Hard to believe Kevyn Adams has been so stubborn as not to draft any defencemen since the last time you complained about him not drafting any defencemen. 😜

[Flashsabre]

They did draft Lindgren and Komarov last draft.

R. Johnson, Novikov, Komarov, Lindgren is not nothing.

[dudacek]

Just now, Flashsabre said:

They did draft Lindgren and Komarov last draft.

R. Johnson, Novikov, Komarov, Lindgren is not nothing.

And then there's that Power kid, who is younger than most 'prospects' but somehow never counts in these discussions about how Adams has "ignored" the defence.

[GASabresIUFAN]

31 minutes ago, dudacek said:

And then there's that Power kid, who is younger than most 'prospects' but somehow never counts in these discussions about how Adams has "ignored" the defence.

Because he’s an NHL player and is only the 3rd of 6 we need to field a good D group.  The question remains how do will fill the other 3 slots longterm.  Anyone who brings up Lindgren and the other late rounds picks is asking to hit the lottery.  Players like those have a 15% chance of playing 100 games in the NHL and you mostly get guys like Bryson for your trouble. 

KA has used only 18% of his draft capital on D.  The league average is 33% during KA’s tenure.  Only perennial playoff teams (read teams with limited No of picks) have spent less than KA’s 18%.  For teams with a similar number of picks that last three years all have drafted more D in numbers and/or more during the first 2 rounds. If my memory serves most of the teams with 25 plus picks have drafted at least 3 D in the first 2 rounds over that period.  KA drafted one.

If this team misses the playoffs, every post mortem for the season will focus on the inadequate D and goaltending and wonder what will be done to fix them because there is no immediate help coming from the prospect pile line.

 

 

[dudacek]

35 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Because he’s an NHL player and is only the 3rd of 6 we need to field a good D group.  The question remains how do will fill the other 3 slots longterm.  Anyone who brings up Lindgren and the other late rounds picks is asking to hit the lottery.  Players like those have a 15% chance of playing 100 games in the NHL and you mostly get guys like Bryson for your trouble. 

KA has used only 18% of his draft capital on D.  The league average is 33% during KA’s tenure.  Only perennial playoff teams (read teams with limited No of picks) have spent less than KA’s 18%.  For teams with a similar number of picks that last three years all have drafted more D in numbers and/or more during the first 2 rounds. If my memory serves most of the teams with 25 plus picks have drafted at least 3 D in the first 2 rounds over that period.  KA drafted one.

If this team misses the playoffs, every post mortem for the season will focus on the inadequate D and goaltending and wonder what will be done to fix them because there is no immediate help coming from the prospect pile line.

 

 

Using percentages instead of raw numbers again, I see.

Why don't you just say Adams has drafted 1 defenceman in the 1st 2 rounds over the past three drafts? It's the real numbers that matter.

(And ignore that Bos, Sea, Phi, Win, Van, Nas, Pit, Stl, SJ, TB, Edm, Tor, VGK, Cal, Ott, NYR, NYI — literally half the league — have also drafted 1 or less over that span

And then you can argue he should have picked a Dman over Kisakov or Leinonen

(And ignore the merits of passing on Dmen to pick Savoie, Östlund, Kulich, Quinn and Peterka)

Yes, the NHL blueline has depth problems. Yes, the pipeline could use more bodies.

No, Adams has not been unforgivably negligent: we have 5 defencemen 24-and-under in the system who have been picked in the top 32.

I doubt you'll find five teams in the league with that kind of young capital on their blueline.

If you want to define him by Clague and Bryson, I'm obviously not going to stop you.

Edited March 9, 2023 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

And then there's that Power kid, who is younger than most 'prospects' but somehow never counts in these discussions about how Adams has "ignored" the defence.

He's already being counted. He's counted in the 3 good nhl defenders part, now who's coming to fill out the other 3 spots?

1 hour ago, Flashsabre said:

They did draft Lindgren and Komarov last draft.

R. Johnson, Novikov, Komarov, Lindgren is not nothing.

Pick 2 at most, the rest won't matter

[triumph_communes]

Having rookies in the line up helps when injuries hit. It’s going to need to be addressed over the next few years. 
 

The criticism is just whining though. We had a better deal in place for Chychrun and didn’t get it because the player decided elsewhere. He’s obviously trying. If nothing is done this off-season then it’s merited again. 

[LGR4GM]

12 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Having rookies in the line up helps when injuries hit. It’s going to need to be addressed over the next few years. 
 

The criticism is just whining though. We had a better deal in place for Chychrun and didn’t get it because the player decided elsewhere. He’s obviously trying. If nothing is done this off-season then it’s merited again. 

I agree he's trying, but until he fixes it we have a problem

[Marvin]

It is too late to complain about this season.  We do have issues in the lack of defencive picks and the lack of depth signings.  However, we do have hope that GMKA sees what we all see as the deficiencies in our defence.  Signing Lyubushkin showed that he knew that we needed his type of game in our defence.  Trading for Stillman implies that Adams wants to increase defencive toughness.  The attempted trade for Chychrun gives me hope that Adams sees the overall lack of quality in our system.

But he has to make it work.  No more excuses.

Aside 1: on other boards, people have been sharply critical of Adams for not offering up both Savoie and Kulich to get a deal done for Chychrun.  I hope Adams does not get too antsy to make a deal.  Just because we can overpay in prospects for a trade does not mean that we should overpay in prospects for a trade.

Aside 2: I really want guys who do all the boring stuff right for our 4-8 D, our bottom 6 F, and our goalkeeping.  I don't care about names.