The Problem with NOT Trading for Defense

[Drag0nDan]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

It isn't specifically about Chychrun but he is a great example of the issue the Sabres not only have now, but will not be fixed by "draft and develop" which has been Adams mantra. It is a mantra that I don't usually have an issue with, however. 

The Buffalo Sabres do not have prospects internally that will be top 4 defenders anytime in the next 2-4 years (I lean closer to 4 years). Lindgren, Komarov are 4 years out from being impactful, 3 if you get lucky. Novikov is at least 2 years out and probably 3 if you get lucky. Then there is Ryan Johnson who hopefully signs but he's going to be Lyubushkin's replacement basically on the 3rd pairing after next year. 

That's it. There are no other defenders in the system that we should even think about IMPO. Which brings us back to Chychrun. The Sabres defense is bad and we saw what happens when 1 injury happens, it gets way worse. Power will get better and Samuelsson might get a little better but no one else in the top 6 is going to improve a bunch to make the defense better. Adding a guy like Chychrun allows you to bridge some of the time from now until maybe a prospect is ready to fill in. It upgrades what you have currently and it does signal that we are starting to move away from development seasons to serious attempts at winning. 

It doesn't have to be Chychrun, but giving up a 1st in 2023, 2nd in 2024, and a 2nd in 2026 should not have been a deal breaker. The 2023 first is probably around 17-19th depending on points and that is a player who is 2 years away once you draft him. The 2026 2nd is a player who won't make the NHL until what? 2029 or 2030. Now we could argue that Buffalo's 2023 1st is viewed as slightly less valuable than Ottawa's but we also could have coughed up an earlier 2nd rounder, hell we could have given them one this year. 

My point in all this is that we have to trade or sign not 1 but 2 defenders. Bryson, Clague, whatever is not good enough. Jokiharju is hit or miss and really struggles when you bump up his minutes and responsibility. Boosh has one more year. There is no help in the pipeline that we can point to like Savoie or Kulich and say "yea reinforcements are coming". That means as soon as next year's deadline we will only have 3 useful defenders on this team, Dahlin, Power, Muel. It isn't about Chychrun specifically but if we want to make the playoffs ever, we can't just "draft and develop" because at that rate the defender we draft in 2023 will be impactful in 2027.

Outside help has to come to the defense or this will be another failed rebuild. One of the best times to add is the trade deadline, if not now then when? Before the draft? UFA? They need help and it might cost a precious pick to acquire it, I just hope they aren't afraid to pull the trigger when the option come along. We have seen cheaper deals for helpful defenders, do we really need 3 second round picks this year? 

The challenge at the deadline is only bad teams are looking to sell.  So you limit yourself to about 10 teams that you can buy from.  Prices are usually higher too.

I do think a deal will need to be made next offseason - but you have free agency, and teams looking to dump salary etc in the offseason.  

Edited March 2, 2023 by Drag0nDan

[TageMVP]

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

That would have no bearing on the defense and the lack of internal improvement. 

It will if they play great defense today 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, TageMVP said:

It will if they play great defense today 

[PromoTheRobot]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

What defensive help is coming to this team that isn't coming from outside?

You act like the trade deadline is the Sabres last chance to make a deal.

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Such a well thought out response. I might need to do some research to offer a proper rebuttal. 

It's better than "So?" It has more words, and tells you to do something.

[TRIP65]

6 hours ago, Eleven said:

Adams does not properly evaluate the team's needs.  He just doesn't.  He hasn't fixed the mess in goal and now he's got a bare cupboard for a blue line.

Draft picks outside the top five are lottery tickets.  We all know that.  A first round pick in 2023 (even in a deep draft) and a second round pick a year or two from now are not sure things.  But certain defensemen are.  He needed to pull the trigger and didn't.

Adams is more worried about keeping "Prospects" for future runs of "Playoffs" then seeing he has THAT chance THIS year with a few moves. If he thinks going 12 years without a PLAYOFF game will fly, it is a LONG OFF SEASON!!!

Adams could get rid of Middlestat, Olofosson, Peterka, Asplund, Jokiharju anyone else NOT named Sovay, Kulich, Levi. He has all of this years Draft Picks we don't need being this young. These guys won't make club for 6-7 years.

I like Peterka but he seems like he should have stayed in Rochester another year and now I believe two years away cause he didn't

[TRIP65]

2 hours ago, Drag0nDan said:

The challenge at the deadline is only bad teams are looking to sell.  So you limit yourself to about 10 teams that you can buy from.  Prices are usually higher too.

I do think a deal will need to be made next offseason - but you have free agency, and teams looking to dump salary etc in the offseason.  

12 Years NO PLAYOFFS and WORSE, you don't get to see what you need most to WIN a playoff Series. How will THESE guys do in a Series?

6 hours ago, Stormcloudmember66 said:

Totally agree.... this perpetual build is getting fan weary. Not chasing our need now when we are this close is a huge disappointment

EXACTLY

[TRIP65]

5 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

To be honest I think he’s merely following the script he planned and is unwilling to deviate barring obvious help.

He wants to win but sees little value in making moves that may negatively affect the vibes. 
 

I want moves but I’m also on the conservative side. I’m disinterested in giant risk-laden trades. So I don’t want Parynko or Provorov or to trade Savoie/Kulich 

 

All in all I’m disappointed in the lack of help but not pulling out my hair over it

Don't have to trade Savoie/Kulich/Levi. Plenty of Draft Picks and other players. You have Peterka (Not Ready), Olofsson, Middlestat ready to help a young club rebuilding. Sabres ARE READY if they get a RW Defense and a Vet Winger to go with Cozens. Not worried about goaltending if we shore up defense. Levi will be here Mid next season.

[TRIP65]

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I feel I’ve said all I need to say about our lack of defense and goaltending. 

I do appreciate @LGR4GM for pointing out the same issues I’ve been posting about for months from KA’s failure to draft D causing the lack of a D pipeline, to the terrible play of our defense outside the top 3, to KA’s mind boggling refusal to actually fix the darn problems.

Maybe he has a secret move up his sleeve over the next two days to prove us all wrong. However when it doesn’t materialize, maybe y’all will be as annoyed as I was at the stupid Stillman trade.  

If (when?) this team doesn’t make the playoffs there will be only one person to blame. 
 

 

 

Stillman trade is fine, didn't need Winger given away and player has Grit. Not a Blockbuster trade but replaces lost defensman Fitz. Jost didn't raise eyebrowses but is a GOOD FIT. Guys like this will have to fill lower Roster Spots so we can pay Dahlin, Power, Krebs, Quinn some day. Up coming Savoie, Kulich, Levi.

[LGR4GM]

20 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You act like the trade deadline is the Sabres last chance to make a deal.

It's better than "So?" It has more words, and tells you to do something.

And you keep acting like Adams can do no wrong and that any questioning of him is blasphemy. 

[TRIP65]

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This problem on defense can no longer be solved with a strictly conservative approach.  He has no pipeline to draw from to fix the problems and the cheap acquisitions (Clague, Lyubushkin and now Stillman) haven’t and won’t solve the problems.  

He is going to have to bring in better players and that will cost in both $ and assets.  He is going to have to take a risk.

Just need a very GOOD stay at home RW defensiveman to go with Power. We are young and guys like Clague, Lyubushkin and now Stillman are good fillers. Jok can go to 3rd group, use his offense with any one of those guys

[TRIP65]

5 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Adams is guilty of not doing what fans want when they want it. Nothing more. To suggest that "Adams does not properly evaluate the team's needs" is preposterous. He has a plan and he's sticking with it. The fact the Sabres are contending for a playoff spot sooner than expected isn't moving him off that plan. Don't forget that he involves Kyle Okposo in team decisions. So he's getting input from the locker room. Adams is not going to make the same mistakes his predecessors made when trying to rush the rebuild.

Asking Okoposo, who has lost every season so far as a Sabre, WHAT TO DO?

Okoposo should not be Captain on 4th line PERIOD.

[TRIP65]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

So? 

We have been rebuilding since Miller. NOT rebuilding, TEAM has arrived but needs a PUSH. Everyone knows Sabres have too MANY Prospects, soon we will have to CUT guys cause EVERYONE knows that!!!!!

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

1. Erik Johnson, 35
2. Damon Severson, 28
3. Scott Mayfield, 30
4. Matt Dumba, 28
5. Connor Clifton, 28
6. Justin Holl, 31
7. Radko Gudas, 33
8. Kevin Shattenkirk, 34
9. Trevor van Riemsdyk, 31
10. Steven Santini, 28
11. Travis Harmonic, 32
12. Brady Keeper, 27
13. Luke Schenn, 33

That list is just UFA right shot d in no particular order. 

omg I will edit for you

Yeah, NO THANK YOU

[TRIP65]

4 hours ago, phil_soisson said:

 "I want moves but I’m also on the conservative side. I’m disinterested in giant risk-laden trades". I think GMTM left many with that feeling. We may have reached the polar opposite now. The actual price the Sens paid for Chychrun seemed considerably below the prognosticated price, and one the Sabres by all accounts could have met, or exceeded. We're not talking about breaking the bank to go off script.

Trading Eichel and O'Reilly isn't Conservative and has worked out. Have Plenty of Prospects to go get 2 people without killing what you have.

[Xzy89c]

If we make playoffs it will not be due to a trade we make unless it is for goalie who goes on a run. We have an elite defenseman, a very good dman, a good dman, an above average dman and the rest are maybe league below avg or average. Our top three matches anyone in hockey.  There is no urgency to make big trade for dman. Wait till offseason and see who comes available. 

This has been a fun year. Our goal sb to improve for next year and really go for playoffs. Wait till offseason. That starts with a goalie and continues with need for some sandpaper in lineup as we are easy to play against. 

We should also take the second round pick instead of signing Johnson. He would not go in second round of this draft if he was eligible.

I thin the main appeal of Chycrun was the contract. He is not a better player than dahlin or power. Does not bring a skill set we do not have. He will not be on PP or on ice at end of game. 

[TRIP65]

4 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Let me throw it another scenario. What is the assets are used to acquire a bona fide starting goaltender? 
 

David Poille was on the Jeff Marek show, and basically said no one on the Nashville roster is untouchable. 
 

Jusse Saros, has two years remaining on his deal after this one which is outside of Nashville, competitive window. They also have.Asakrov in Milwaukee right now, so they have their next starting goaltender in the wings. 
 

Devon Levi models his game after Saros, wouldn’t it make sense to try to bring in someone who is a Vezina caliber goaltender For the next two seasons, and possibly beyond as he is only 27 years old, and have him be a bridge to Levi? 
 

If they can compose a deal involving the Sabres 2023, first round pick with conditions a 2023 second round pick and possibly Rosen for Saros and Fabbro, wouldn’t that be a better use of assets. 
 

The caveat is the deal needs to be completed, however. 
 

I’m not gonna get upset about any deals that did not happen until the draft, if the Sabres end up making all four of the picks they are scheduled to make in the 2023 draft, I will be probably feel differently. 
 

Also, Boston now has 14 skaters sign for next year and $6 million in cap space. Can I offer the Sabres second round pick in 2023 for Swayman and Reilly as a cap dump? 

Our TOP LINE are all guys we got from somewhere else. Sabres didn't get great internally just by drafting and keeping their own. A good GM uses his drafts and Picks to acquire or develop but to GET BETTER QUICKER. you don't wait forever or your wasting the SKILL you have NOW!

[PromoTheRobot]

10 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

And you keep acting like Adams can do no wrong and that any questioning of him is blasphemy. 

He's human so he's going to make mistakes. But the hubris of some of the comments made here approaches the absurd. First off, no one knows what is being discussed, being offered, or being asked for. Yet we treat tweets like gospel. Second, being in playoff contention is not a reason to start making deals, despite the arguments of the "wonderful experience" a playoff series would be for development. It's not worth losing a Savoie or Kulich just to swing a deal.

 

[LGR4GM]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

He's human so he's going to make mistakes. But the hubris of some of the comments made here approaches the absurd. First off, no one knows what is being discussed, being offered, or being asked for. Yet we treat tweets like gospel. Second, being in playoff contention is not a reason to start making deals, despite the arguments of the "wonderful experience" a playoff series would be for development. It's not worth losing a Savoie or Kulich just to swing a deal.

 

No one around here is talking about this. Again you feel the need to defend defend defend even the mildly criticism of a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 11 years and does not have internal candidates to improve the defense. 

[PromoTheRobot]

14 minutes ago, TRIP65 said:

Asking Okoposo, who has lost every season so far as a Sabre, WHAT TO DO?

Okoposo should not be Captain on 4th line PERIOD.

Oh, this is ****in' brilliant. This is what I'm talking about @LGR4GM. 

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

No one around here is talking about this. Again you feel the need to defend defend defend even the mildly criticism of a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 11 years and does not have internal candidates to improve the defense. 

I'm not defending him so much as trusting his judgement. He's earned it so far. And I have a pretty good memory for things said on SabreSpace and 90% of it is wrong.

Edited March 2, 2023 by PromoTheRobot

[TageMVP]

39 minutes ago, TRIP65 said:

 

Adams could get rid of Middlestat, Olofosson, Peterka, Asplund, Jokiharju anyone else NOT named Sovay, Kulich, Levi. He has all of this years Draft Picks we don't need being this young. These guys won't make club for 6-7 years.

I like Peterka but he seems like he should have stayed in Rochester another year and now I believe two years away cause he didn't

Yup 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Oh, this is ****in' brilliant. This is what I'm talking about @LGR4GM. 

I'm not defending him so much as trusting his judgement. He's earned it so far.

Never trust someone's judgement that you don't know. He's earned it? He's earned me hoping that he has something else in the works but again you and others are ignoring the reality that is smacking you in the face. There is NO internal defense help coming. None. 

Also Trip65 has been a board member for less than an hour. Not like the rest us are jumping to agree with them. 

41 minutes ago, TRIP65 said:

Adams is more worried about keeping "Prospects" for future runs of "Playoffs" then seeing he has THAT chance THIS year with a few moves. If he thinks going 12 years without a PLAYOFF game will fly, it is a LONG OFF SEASON!!!

Adams could get rid of Middlestat, Olofosson, Peterka, Asplund, Jokiharju anyone else NOT named Sovay, Kulich, Levi. He has all of this years Draft Picks we don't need being this young. These guys won't make club for 6-7 years.

I like Peterka but he seems like he should have stayed in Rochester another year and now I believe two years away cause he didn't

I have little interest in getting rid of Mitts or JJP at this stage. Olofsson and Asplund though could be packaged. 

[TRIP65]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No it will be because of goaltending. 

Not all on the Goalies, we are a TOP 5 offense because of defense which exposes the Goalies. Problem is, when the TOP line doesn't score 4 then we lose. Quinn Krebs are getting better but since they haven't arrived the lack of scoring evenly from Olofsson, Middlestat, Peterka, Okoposo, Girgeson. Too many NOT scoring or scoring only when TOP line is working. WE ARE NOT Terrible except at HOME certain nights. THAT IS WHY WE NEED HELP!

[TRIP65]

9 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

He's human so he's going to make mistakes. But the hubris of some of the comments made here approaches the absurd. First off, no one knows what is being discussed, being offered, or being asked for. Yet we treat tweets like gospel. Second, being in playoff contention is not a reason to start making deals, despite the arguments of the "wonderful experience" a playoff series would be for development. It's not worth losing a Savoie or Kulich just to swing a deal.

 

Again, Adams doesn't have to trade Savoie, Kulich or Levi. There were 3 Centers chozen and only maybe 1 spot open on Sabres. Plenty of Prospects, have UPL and Peterka as top Prospects/1st year guys we don't really need. Even can use Krebs or Quinn for a REAL WINNER. Wouldn't have a TOP LINE if we didn't give up TOP SHELF Players.

12 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No one around here is talking about this. Again you feel the need to defend defend defend even the mildly criticism of a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 11 years and does not have internal candidates to improve the defense. 

EXACTLY

[LGR4GM]

FTR, I have liked what Adams has created to this point. I will not blindly follow anyone though and when I see issues I have no problem pointing them out. I am sure Adams knows where the holes on his team are, I just hope that understands at some point he may have to pay slightly above what he wants if he wants to fix them. Defense is a problem and will be going forward until it gets addressed in a meaningful way. 

[TRIP65]

No way Tage, Dahlin, Tuch or Cozen's shouldn't be CAPTAIN. There our BEST PLAYERS and untouchable.

[Cheektorado]

4 minutes ago, TRIP65 said:

No way Tage, Dahlin, Tuch or Cozen's shouldn't be CAPTAIN. There our BEST PLAYERS and untouchable.

Take a breath cowboy.  KO has done a lot for this team as Captain this year.