The Problem with NOT Trading for Defense

[dudacek]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

It wasn't an unprotected #1 though. It was very much protected. 

Those were supposed rough conversation starters.

It was a top 5 protected. Personally, i believe Adams was unwilling to gamble a top 10 pick in this year's draft.

[WhenWillItEnd66]

Just now, SwampD said:

I disagree. If we miss the playoffs this year. It won’t be because of our #4 Dman.

Agree, it will be because our defense is not defensively responsible. (Ok, most of the offense is not good at defense either!) 

[Marvin]

I also agree that Adams is missing an opportunity on defence.  I want Dahlin, Samuelsson, Power, and Jokiharu to learn what happens during this crunch time amd for Lybushkin to help them with his experience.  But unless they surprise me, I am not interested in seeing what the others bring.  I think a veteran #3 LHD would help immensely and would help the group to mature.

One point lost in this discussion is that another veteran in the line-up would also be a voice pushing the forwards to think more intelligently about leaving the zone with possession and on defencive awareness.  I am thinking about how much Gil Perreault and Rick Martin improved in 1972-3 when we added Tim Horton.  Not only was he instrumental in the growth of Schoenfeld, but I definitely recall the young forwards improving in both positional back-checking and timeliness of zone exits.

[...]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

It upgrades what you have currently and it does signal that we are starting to move away from development seasons to serious attempts at winning.

I think that's a valid take yet illustrative of the problem people seem to be having. The fans might be ready to move away from a development season but the team, clearly, is not.

Don't forget making the playoffs this year was not the goal. Why can't fans accept that? Why can't fans weigh their expectations against the gains the team has made?

Let's be honest, would we be having this discussion if Chyrchrym weren't available?

Chyruynmrn was the focal point of many who think the Sabres need to "DO SOMETHING!" at the deadline. There are a few people who keep repeating the line "he ticked all of the right boxes". Did he? Maybe the more they looked into the guy maybe some of those ticks disappeared. Why are we assuming we know the intimate details? I believe too many people have submitted to the so-called authority of the so-called media insiders. Regardless, as @Taro T has pointed out, the price is high at a potential two firsts.

Is there someone who they can draft in the 17-19th that they may feel is worth holding onto the pick? Likewise, is there a way to address the defense pipeline with a second round pick?

Trade deadline trade values are typically excessive, so let's be real: if you're committed to getting the most value out of a trade deadline move the logical target would be a goalie since that is by far our weakest position at home (see @pi2000 's discussion).

Somewhat ironic that we're at the ten year anniversary of "It may require some suffering". <insert laughing emoji here>

We shot ourselves in the foot multiple times this past 12 years trading for players who wound up perpetuating the suffering. Personally, I'm alright with KA playing his cards from a position of caution. So far, so good, and I see no reason to get upset that he's not deviating from a working formula.

[LGR4GM]

Just now, ... said:

I think that's a valid take yet illustrative of the problem people seem to be having. The fans might be ready to move away from a development season but the team, clearly, is not.

Don't forget making the playoffs this year was not the goal. Why can't fans accept that? Why can't fans weigh their expectations against the gains the team has made?

Let's be honest, would we be having this discussion if Chyrchrym weren't available?

Chyruynmrn was the focal point of many who think the Sabres need to "DO SOMETHING!" at the deadline. There are a few people who keep repeating the line "he ticked all of the right boxes". Did he? Maybe the more they looked into the guy maybe some of those ticks disappeared. Why are we assuming we know the intimate details? I believe too many people have submitted to the so-called authority of the so-called media insiders. Regardless, as @Taro T has pointed out, the price is high at a potential two firsts.

Is there someone who they can draft in the 17-19th that they may feel is worth holding onto the pick? Likewise, is there a way to address the defense pipeline with a second round pick?

Trade deadline trade values are typically excessive, so let's be real: if you're committed to getting the most value out of a trade deadline move the logical target would be a goalie since that is by far our weakest position at home (see @pi2000 's discussion).

Somewhat ironic that we're at the ten year anniversary of "It may require some suffering". <insert laughing emoji here>

We shot ourselves in the foot multiple times this past 12 years trading for players who wound up perpetuating the suffering. Personally, I'm alright with KA playing his cards from a position of caution. So far, so good, and I see no reason to get upset that he's not deviating from a working formula.

Chychrun isn't the point. There is no defense help coming from draft and develop for at least 3-5 years. 

[Spoonman]

I too want to boost the boy’s chances to break the drought. That said, it takes 2 to

 

 

we don’t & won’t know what GMKA is doing until it is done. I know he is using Big Baller Beane as a GM resource. He is staying apprised of the working in NHL trade land, communicating daily, using analytics team, and staying patient (considering he still has an anchor tied to him due to former GM moves that killed the franchise). I have seen much more positive from GMKA in last few seasons than the 10 before. 

I am hoping he can get another reasonable D, a PK/Faceoff Fwd., &/or an average G to pair w Andy for stretch run. 
 

Lastly WTH w ‘SPLUND on wing? IDK why we don’t have a good D Fwd. involved for (weeks?). 

Jumping off 

 

 

 

[DarthEbriate]

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No it will be because of goaltending. 

While the D is young and the forwards sometimes really struggle in their own zone and all the RJ "Not out!"s over the years... it's really come down to this. JBot and GM Sheevyn have neglected goaltending since the instant Hutton's eye was injured. Arguably since Miller was traded, but there were tank reasons to not worry about it then.

As soon as Hutton's eye became an issue they needed a veteran starting goalie. Ullmark was improving and became a slighty-above-League-average starter while with the Sabres but had no backup. They let him walk. Since then it's been designed around a player that was about to retire which is a garbage plan.

No pressure, Levi! 

(Darth Aside: Though, as the spawn of the trades of Reino Amidala and Jackikin Eichkwalker...  [Princess] Levi and Tuch [Icewalker] are the destined leaders of the destruction of 2 Cups [sandwiched by a Cup-loss to Eichel Strikes Back in the Final], then another Cup and ... whatever Snoke's ship counts for... as their careers end... depending on how you interpret the sequels.)

[Marvin]

Reminder: the performance of even a good goaltender is often sub-par after a mid-season trade.  Goaltenders rely a lot on their familiarity with the skaters' tendencies to handle extra-man rushes, puck movement when exiting the zone, etc.  Moreover, the coaches and skaters need to adjust to the goaltender's idiosyncrasies, which can take months.  The best time for a goaltender trade is in the off-season.

[...]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Chychrun isn't the point. There is no defense help coming from draft and develop for at least 3-5 years. 

Accepting that premise it is true only today.

[North Buffalo]

Hronek would have been great... solid D... very good shot and pretty tough D... darn

[GASabresIUFAN]

… and guess what.  KA can go strict status quo again next season.   Yeah!

He has 8 D under contract or control.  He has 2 goalies under contract or control.  I can’t wait for the Stillman Bush pairing next year.  Won’t that be fun.  Feel better?  

On the bright side maybe he’ll sign a college UFA or two for Rochester and there should be two good D prospects when we draft in the middle of the first.

 

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Chychrun isn't the point. There is no defense help coming from draft and develop for at least 3-5 years. 

So that help will have to come from other sources.

And just to be clear, we have 2 number #1 D and a good second-pairing guy set for years.

Jokiharju and Boosh are, in my view fine on the 3rd pair, are relatively young and can be re-upped if necessary.

The issue is adding another 2nd-pair guy and replenishing the pipeline alongside Johnson.

We've got 4 high picks to do the latter in the long-term. And in the short-term, we have plenty of forward prospects to invest in a Nylander/Jokiharju type trade if we wish.

So, I agree this needs to be addressed. I just think the path is open to get there.

31 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No it will be because of goaltending. 

This. 100 per cent.

[JustOneParade]

13 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Hronek would have been great... solid D... very good shot and pretty tough D... darn

Agree. I'm just not sure Detroit would have been willing to help fill one of our glaring holes.

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

So that help will have to come from other sources.

And just to be clear, we have 2 number #1 D and a good second-pairing guy set for years.

Jokiharju and Boosh are, in my view fine on the 3rd pair, are relatively young and can be re-upped if necessary.

The issue is adding another 2nd-pair guy and replenishing the pipeline alongside Johnson.

We've got 4 high picks to do the latter in the long-term. And in the short-term, we have plenty of forward prospects to invest in a Nylander/Jokiharju type trade if we wish.

So, I agree this needs to be addressed. I just think the path is open to get there.

To the bolded, very much so.

And to Chychrun particularly, expect people are reacting soooo negatively to the news of his trade for 2 reasons: the 1st being the one you've identified that he seems to check many of the boxes the Sabres were looking for and he'd been in the discussion for a long time.  And 2, on paper this particular player will now make one of the teams the Sabres are fighting with for those wild card slots better on paper if not on the ice.

Personally, would like to have seen the Sabres land him considering what was actually given up for him, but am now left with hoping his in-zone shortcomings and an unfamiliarity wiht the system the Otters play and an unfamiliarity with his new partner end up making it a phyrric victory for the Otters as they not only miss the playoffs this year but also win the lottery giving AZ an unprotected 1st next year.

[Carmel Corn]

31 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I disagree. If we miss the playoffs this year. It won’t be because of our #4 Dman.

IMHO, it would be the weakness we have in the #5 and #6.  Although Joki would make a decent #5/#6

31 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

No it will be because of goaltending. 

Exactly...mediocre goaltending talent can only work if you have a strong defense in front of you...both in talent and system.

[LGR4GM]

31 minutes ago, ... said:

Accepting that premise it is true only today.

The premise is correct until it is addressed honestly. 

[French Collection]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

Let me throw it another scenario. What is the assets are used to acquire a bona fide starting goaltender? 
 

David Poille was on the Jeff Marek show, and basically said no one on the Nashville roster is untouchable. 
 

Jusse Saros, has two years remaining on his deal after this one which is outside of Nashville, competitive window. They also have.Asakrov in Milwaukee right now, so they have their next starting goaltender in the wings. 
 

Devon Levi models his game after Saros, wouldn’t it make sense to try to bring in someone who is a Vezina caliber goaltender For the next two seasons, and possibly beyond as he is only 27 years old, and have him be a bridge to Levi? 
 

If they can compose a deal involving the Sabres 2023, first round pick with conditions a 2023 second round pick and possibly Rosen for Saros and Fabbro, wouldn’t that be a better use of assets. 
 

The caveat is the deal needs to be completed, however. 
 

I’m not gonna get upset about any deals that did not happen until the draft, if the Sabres end up making all four of the picks they are scheduled to make in the 2023 draft, I will be probably feel differently. 
 

Also, Boston now has 14 skaters sign for next year and $6 million in cap space. Can I offer the Sabres second round pick in 2023 for Swayman and Reilly as a cap dump? 

Saros would solve the goaltending issue immediately. Fabbro has more upside than Bryson/Clague, plus he is a RHD.

I could get on board with this and I doubt KA would overpay since he is glacially patient.

This would be a shot at all of the other teams competing for the WC spot, as a goalie like him is a game changer. It may even scare a team like the Bruins.

I also like the Levi mentor angle, a lot.

[Indabuff]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 The Sabres defense is bad and we saw what happens when 1 injury happens, it gets way worse.  

"When the ***** goes down you better be ready"

-Louis Mario Freese

[In The Buff]

57 minutes ago, ... said:

I think that's a valid take yet illustrative of the problem people seem to be having. The fans might be ready to move away from a development season but the team, clearly, is not.

Don't forget making the playoffs this year was not the goal. Why can't fans accept that? Why can't fans weigh their expectations against the gains the team has made?

I'd guess its because we haven't sniffed the playoffs in 11 years. We finally have a team in an actual position to end that streak.

We have lots of assets in players & picks & while you don't want to alter the long term plan, a little boost seems worth the risk to give yourself a legit shot to make the post season, something we havent done since 2012.

At some point the calculus has to change

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

Let me throw it another scenario. What is the assets are used to acquire a bona fide starting goaltender? 
 

David Poille was on the Jeff Marek show, and basically said no one on the Nashville roster is untouchable. 
 

Jusse Saros, has two years remaining on his deal after this one which is outside of Nashville, competitive window. They also have.Asakrov in Milwaukee right now, so they have their next starting goaltender in the wings. 
 

Devon Levi models his game after Saros, wouldn’t it make sense to try to bring in someone who is a Vezina caliber goaltender For the next two seasons, and possibly beyond as he is only 27 years old, and have him be a bridge to Levi? 
 

If they can compose a deal involving the Sabres 2023, first round pick with conditions a 2023 second round pick and possibly Rosen for Saros and Fabbro, wouldn’t that be a better use of assets. 
 

The caveat is the deal needs to be completed, however. 
 

I’m not gonna get upset about any deals that did not happen until the draft, if the Sabres end up making all four of the picks they are scheduled to make in the 2023 draft, I will be probably feel differently. 
 

Also, Boston now has 14 skaters sign for next year and $6 million in cap space. Can I offer the Sabres second round pick in 2023 for Swayman and Reilly as a cap dump? 

Agree. Making all the picks again would be overkill 

[GoPuckYourself]

I'm obviously definitely in the minority here but I'm relieved we didn't get Chychrun besides the last name spelling he has not played a full season once in his career. There are guys out there who could bump Jokiharu down imo.

[Curt]

Some of this is my own personal head narrative, but I feel like when Adams sold Pegula on a full rebuild plan that included a couple non competitive years, he also committed to not spending near the cap for that period of time.

My hope is that he can use the teams obvious growth to convince Pegula of a plan to weaponize cap space this offseason and use it to make a couple nice additions to the team for minimal assets.

I much prefer cap crunch trade prices or the free acquisition of a key UFA to the high costs at the trade deadline.

[Carmel Corn]

1 minute ago, GoPuckYourself said:

I'm obviously definitely in the minority here but I'm relieved we didn't get Chychrun besides the last name spelling he has not played a full season once in his career. There are guys out there who could bump Jokiharu down imo.

I'm okay with bumping Joki down to the 3rd pair, but WHO are the specific guys out there that you think can do so?

[TageMVP]

Everyone on this forums tune will change if they beat the Bruins today 

They are 3 points out of the playoffs, 3. That's it 

Pitt and Isles lose 

1 point from there  

 

[LGR4GM]

8 minutes ago, TageMVP said:

Everyone on this forums tune will change if they beat the Bruins today 

They are 3 points out of the playoffs, 3. That's it 

Pitt and Isles lose 

1 point from there  

 

That would have no bearing on the defense and the lack of internal improvement.