2023-24 Sabres Early Thoughts

[GASabresIUFAN]

35 minutes ago, JohnC said:

With respect to the highlighted segment: Absolutely not! Joki had an exceptional game last night. It seems as if he has replaced Mitts as the designated target for fans frustrated with the team. Please stop with these reflexive negative responses about him that don't reflect how he has actually played.  He was one of our better blueline players last night. I thought this was one of his best games as a Sabre. And I say the same for Lyubushkin's play yesterday. 

Don Granato has on more than a few occasions extolled Joki's upside as a player. Joki is not a weakness on the blueline. Being a partner to Power is one of the reasons why Power has prospered as a rookie player. As @dudacekpointed out on his comments in this game, Joki was exceptional in this game. There were more than a few occasions where he got back to forestall a Ranger odd man rush. I also have noticed him to be more aggressive participating in the offense. It's apparent to me (maybe not to you) that he is expanding his game.

I'm not against moving him down a pairing if the GM brings in a better player to pair with Power. That would certainly upgrade the blueline unit. I would have to see who is brought in, assuming that type of player is added to the mix. I still believe that a third pairing player is more likely to be acquired than a genuine second-pairing player. 

Just like the Mitts bashing this Joki denigration makes no sense to me. Despite how many have negatively categorized him, he has become one of the core players that the GM and coach are counting on. 

 

I think you are forgetting the first adage of a trade.  ‘You have to give to get.”  If KA needs to trade Joki to get Power a better partner, would you really be against it? 

[Taro T]

16 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think you are forgetting the first adage of a trade.  ‘You have to give to get.”  If KA needs to trade Joki to get Power a better partner, would you really be against it? 

You seem to be forgetting the 2nd adage.  You don't deplete what you're weak in to shore that area up.  Trade what you have a surplus of to shore up weaknesses.

[GASabresIUFAN]

56 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You seem to be forgetting the 2nd adage.  You don't deplete what you're weak in to shore that area up.  Trade what you have a surplus of to shore up weaknesses.

And you’re forgetting that KA added Stillman for depth and more physical play.  Also when he signs Johnson we are adding a similar style player to Joki.  
 

If KA envisions a bruising tandem as the 3rd pair, Joki may not be in his longterm plans.

[Taro T]

25 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

And you’re forgetting that KA added Stillman for depth and more physical play.  Also when he signs Johnson we are adding a similar style player to Joki.  
 

If KA envisions a bruising tandem as the 3rd pair, Joki may not be in his longterm plans.

The plan should be to add 2 more bodies (ideally a 4 and another 5/6) so the team has 8 REAL defensemen  (or minimum 7 with either Clague or Bryson as the 8) and the other the 9/10 while Johnson cooks in Ra-cha-cha.  Ideally Clague and Bryson both are back and in Ra-cha-cha ready to come up if we see another injury plague like from November.

The forward ranks are in pretty good shape.  Those additions would put the D onto that same footing.

Find a 1 for the net and they're cooking with gas.

And, don't really see jettisoning Jokiharju as being a thing just on an "if" and a "may."

They have no true 4 on the roster (unless you're counting Samuelsson who currently is a 4 and might be (and likely will grow into) a 3 which is good enough when his partner is a Norris caliber guy.)  Getting that AND adding depth should be the priority, not going for incremental improvement by upgrading the 5 to a 4.

The goal should be to make Henri a 5 and pair him with either Lyubushkin or Stillman depending upon opponent.  Bousch has looked good (except for the 1 game that nobody but Peterka showed up in) with getting to play 3rd line and not with Bryson or Clague weighing him down.  He can play on the left side, so either of the current 3rd pairing guys could play with Joker or the 2nd new guy could play with him.

They're still high on Joker and expect gettting to play 3rd pairing would make him appear to be a stud.

They have plenty of cap space at present and have no need to jettison a good/reasonable D-man at this time.  Especially considering what the learning curve likely is for learning what Granato wants the D to be doing, really don't see a reason to get rid of him.   

[GASabresIUFAN]

@Taro T

Ideally, he'd add two real D, but I think he feels he has already added one of the 2 needed D in Stillman.  With 7 guys now under contract for next season, I think the best we can hope for is adding a partner for Power.

I think he'd be perfectly happy rolling into next season with the following if trading Joki is necessary to get the player he wants. 

Mule Dahlin

Power ????? (New player)

Stillman Lyubushkin 

Bryson Clague (or someone else)

Johnson

Remember, this isn't what I want or would do.  I'd move on from Bryson, Clague, and even Bush.

I'd prefer

Mule Dahlin

Power New player

New Player Jokiharju

Stillman  New Player 

I wanted KA and DG to completely rethink how they play D next season, but I'm trying to be realistic about what KA will and won't do.  He certainly won't do the tinking I'd recommend.  He is going to be slow and cautious.  

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

You seem to be forgetting the 2nd adage.  You don't deplete what you're weak in to shore that area up.  Trade what you have a surplus of to shore up weaknesses.

If you can then sure you do.  But if the the team trading you a defenseman wants one in return then you can't.  

[Pimlach]

52 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@Taro T

Ideally, he'd add two real D, but I think he feels he has already added one of the 2 needed D in Stillman.  With 7 guys now under contract for next season, I think the best we can hope for is adding a partner for Power.

I think he'd be perfectly happy rolling into next season with the following if trading Joki is necessary to get the player he wants. 

Mule Dahlin

Power ????? (New player)

Stillman Lyubushkin 

Bryson Clague (or someone else)

Johnson

Remember, this isn't what I want or would do.  I'd move on from Bryson, Clague, and even Bush.

I'd prefer

Mule Dahlin

Power New player

New Player Jokiharju

Stillman  New Player 

I wanted KA and DG to completely rethink how they play D next season, but I'm trying to be realistic about what KA will and won't do.  He certainly won't do the tinking I'd recommend.  He is going to be slow and cautious.  

less drastic move would be:  

Mule Dahlin

Power New Player

Stillman/Bush Joker 

That would be a decent top 7 and you could rotate the bottom pair and have 7 ready at all time on you 23 man roster.

Rochester - R Johnson, Clague

 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I think you are forgetting the first adage of a trade.  ‘You have to give to get.”  If KA needs to trade Joki to get Power a better partner, would you really be against it? 

@Taro Tresponded succinctly and clearly on the best way to make a deal. As he wisely pointed out depleting an already deficiency within the unit isn't the best approach to take. Adding to the unit to increase the talent base is the better course of action. 

There is an inconsistency and illogic in advocating to trade Joki in order to enhance the play of Power. What you are not acknowledging is that Power is playing at such a level that he is a serious contender for the rookie of the year award. And do you know who his partner is? It's Joki. You make it seem as if Joki is an anchor that is undercutting this impressive rookie's play. That's not the case. It's the opposite of hindering the youngster. He's a partner that is contributing and enhancing the stupendously success of this tall and gangly rookie. Joki shouldn't be the primary defender on the #1 or #2 pairing. I acknowledge that. He is more suited to be the complementary player in one of the top two pairings. And that is exactly the role that he is playing. 

I thought that Joki played one of his best games this season yesterday. (The same assessment for Lyubushkin.) I don't understand why the members here have such a jaundiced view of this player. It's like the Mitts syndrome where people get influenced by the herd view and then get too invested in it to alter their view. 

Make no mistake, if the GM brings in a top tier defenseman in the offseason, I'm open to moving him down the pairings. As it stands, I'm more than happy with the current situation other than there needs to be another addition made to the unit. 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

If you can then sure you do.  But if the the team trading you a defenseman wants one in return then you can't.  

And if that's the case, then so be it.  But the Sabres shouldn't have to give up Jokiharju to get a legit 4.  That's pretty much shuffling deck chairs.

[JohnC]

49 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And if that's the case, then so be it.  But the Sabres shouldn't have to give up Jokiharju to get a legit 4.  That's pretty much shuffling deck chairs.

If you stretch the search for a legit 4-5 defenseman, then that would be a wider market to draw from. And that procurement could be done on the free agent market which would not require giving up assets. It becomes an issue of what contract are you willing to pay. On that count the Sabres are in a favorable position compared to most teams. 

[SABRES 0311]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Ideally we’d keep the top 3, demote Joki to the 3rd pair and bring in 2 new pieces.  However, I’m in the camp that KA is not willing to make that big a change.  He brought Stillman in because they think he fits their style of play (he does - he is historically poor at in zone coverage) and has another year left on his deal. I also don’t see them  walking away from the 2nd year on Bush’s deal.  

However, the attempted trade for Chychrun and the acquisition of Stillman is at least a clear indication that KA realizes what he has isn’t good enough.

To me this make Jokiharju the biggest question mark on the D.  Does KA denote him to the 3rd creating a RHD/RHD pair with Bush, moving Stillman to 7 and Bryson to 8? This opens the 2nd pair job with Power.

or 

Given the demand for RHD, does he trade Joki to open a roster spot for a new partner for Power? The trade could be to acquire assets to help acquire the partner or if the new guy is a UFA, assets for the draft or a new prospect.  

The other question is how does KA acquire the partner for Power?  Does he make a trade or does he sign a UFA? I doubt he’d commit to more than 3 years on a UFA.  So that likely leaves the trade market as the likely source of the new player.  Who is even available?  Jensen was re-signed and is no longer available.  

While I said a UFA is unlikely, I do wonder if KA could get Orlov to sign here for 3 or 5 years? He’d answer our veteran need, is a Cup winner and still plays solid two way hockey.  

 

I think KA is at odds with how to approach this. Joker is young and Power will develop into a real good DMan. So it makes sense to keep Joker. On the other hand, Joker is the only DMan outside the top three with trade value that gets an actual player in return, possibly a second pair if you throw a prospect in. Just my opinion on that without knowing the market.

If it’s me, I keep Joker and pair him with Lybushkin. This leaves acquiring a second pair guy for Power. Given the massive and likely to be even better next year firepower up front, I’d look to acquire a second pair DMan for VO plus a prospect and/or pick. Again I don’t know the market so I don’t know what the pick and/or prospect would have to be. I do think losing VO is negligible given Quinn and Peterka will likely take a step forward next year.

Skinner Thompson Tuch

Mitts Cozens Quinn

Peterka Jost TBD (Hinostroza?)

Greenway Krebs Girgs

Dahlin Muel

Power TBD

Joker Lybushkin 

 

UPL Comrie 

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

If you stretch the search for a legit 4-5 defenseman, then that would be a wider market to draw from. And that procurement could be done on the free agent market which would not require giving up assets. It becomes an issue of what contract are you willing to pay. On that count the Sabres are in a favorable position compared to most teams. 

Want a 5 brought in as well.  But what the team needs is a 4.  Maybe Jokiharju becomes that guy next year.  Or even Lyubushkin.  But rather than expect an internal candidate will advance (Joker by getting to his prime, Bousch by having another year in this significantly different system than he'd been in back in Arizona or even TO) would really like to have an external candidate brought in house.  Doesn't just increase the chances of getting that 4 they need; it also makes it easier to handle injuries.

[dudacek]

10 hours ago, Pimlach said:

less drastic move would be:  

Mule Dahlin

Power New Player

Stillman/Bush Joker 

That would be a decent top 7 and you could rotate the bottom pair and have 7 ready at all time on you 23 man roster.

Rochester - R Johnson, Clague

 

With this, you’ve improved your 4-7 spots by effectively adding a real top 4 defenceman.

That #4 also insulates you from an injury to your top 3, because you know Joki is capable of playing top 4 minutes in a way a Bryson and Lyubushkin can’t. Meanwhile, pushing Joki down to the 3rd pair significantly improves that pair.

You also may have improved the corps even more with the very real possibility Johnson is an upgrade on Stillman and Bryson, and may even be on par with Lyubushkin or Jokiharju. That means you could have two guys out and still run your 7/8 guys in your bottom pair without losing much there.

And Bryson is still under contract, and whatever you think of his ability, he certainly represents better depth than our #9 right now (Davies?)

Given the possibility of a bump from Power next year as well, and this might be all that’s necessary, assuming the fresh #4 is a good add.

Edited March 13, 2023 by dudacek

[JohnC]

18 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

And you’re forgetting that KA added Stillman for depth and more physical play.  Also when he signs Johnson we are adding a similar style player to Joki.  
 

If KA envisions a bruising tandem as the 3rd pair, Joki may not be in his longterm plans.

You don't have to be a bruiser to be a good defender. You preferably want a mix of styles of play within the unit. But the notion that being a bruiser is a requisite is outdated. Samuelsson is not a bruiser, and neither is Power. Dahlin is hitting a little more, and because of it getting hurt more. But you certainly can't describe his style of play as bruising. You keep promoting the false premise that Joki is a detriment to the pairing he is on. That's not an accurate description of that tandem. As stated by @Taro T and others there definitely is a need for another defender or two to bulk up the unit and improve the lower pairings. I would be more than happy if the GM was able to bring in another Lyubushkin type of player and create more depth on the blueline. And assuming there is an additon/s Joki will still stay. 

[Pimlach]

44 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You don't have to be a bruiser to be a good defender. You preferably want a mix of styles of play within the unit. But the notion that being a bruiser is a requisite is outdated. Samuelsson is not a bruiser, and neither is Power. Dahlin is hitting a little more, and because of it getting hurt more. But you certainly can't describe his style of play as bruising. You keep promoting the false premise that Joki is a detriment to the pairing he is on. That's not an accurate description of that tandem. As stated by @Taro T and others there definitely is a need for another defender or two to bulk up the unit and improve the lower pairings. I would be more than happy if the GM was able to bring in another Lyubushkin type of player and create more depth on the blueline. And assuming there is an additon/s Joki will still stay. 

He already brought in another bottom pair guy with Stillman.   

To get better you have to add better players.  Bringing in more Lyubushkin/Stillman level players is not the answer.  

Bring in one really good and experienced top 4 guy.  If that person moves Joker, or even Samuelsson,  down to 5/6 so be it. 

The idea of a trade is to get better.  Not to spend resources on the same level you have.  

[Taro T]

38 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

He already brought in another bottom pair guy with Stillman.   

To get better you have to add better players.  Bringing in more Lyubushkin/Stillman level players is not the answer.  

Bring in one really good and experienced top 4 guy.  If that person moves Joker, or even Samuelsson,  down to 5/6 so be it. 

The idea of a trade is to get better.  Not to spend resources on the same level you have.  

He did.  But, in addition what is here (which is 6 NHLers deep with 2 tweeners and Johnson likely on the way) he should bring in that 4 and 1 more Lyubushkin / Stillman level guy.  That would have the top 8 all NHL caliber with Johnson, Clague, and Bryson in Ra-cha-cha.  

We KNOW they'll be down 2 D-men at some point and being short 3 wouldn't be unrealistic.  The team can handle having any of those bottom 3 in the lineup if the other 5 guys are all NHLers and it's just for a handful of games.

It also would benefit the farm as those Forwards we're looking to bring in as cheap reinforcements and push guys like Olofsson out of the lineup in the near future will have the top 1/2 of the D-corps behind them being guys that have been in the NHL or will soon be there which will help their odds for success tremendously.

Am sure another NHL D-man will be brought in this summer.  Hoping he's that 4 they need.  Also hoping we see 1 more NHL quality guy brought in.  If they do, then D is set for the short term and probably until the Russians or other prospects are ready to step in.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

You don't have to be a bruiser to be a good defender. You preferably want a mix of styles of play within the unit. But the notion that being a bruiser is a requisite is outdated. Samuelsson is not a bruiser, and neither is Power. Dahlin is hitting a little more, and because of it getting hurt more. But you certainly can't describe his style of play as bruising. You keep promoting the false premise that Joki is a detriment to the pairing he is on. That's not an accurate description of that tandem. As stated by @Taro T and others there definitely is a need for another defender or two to bulk up the unit and improve the lower pairings. I would be more than happy if the GM was able to bring in another Lyubushkin type of player and create more depth on the blueline. And assuming there is an additon/s Joki will still stay. 

What are you talking about? KA specifically brought in Stillman and Lyubushkin to bring a physical presence to our D group.  Stillman and Lyubishkin are currently paired together. We aren’t talking about Mule or Dahlin, we are talking about what to do with Joki and the 3rd pair.  If KA/DG likes the two physical D together, that leaves Joki as an extra once a partner for Power is acquired.  

Let’s not forget that Joki is a competent player, but does nothing great.  He is a decent in zone defender, he skates fine, but doesn’t add much O, rarely hits anyone or blocks any shots.  By comparison Mule has nearly twice the hits and twice the blocks while averaging only 1 minute more of PT per game. 

If Joki partners with either Stillman or Bush that’s fine as well.  It all depends on KA’s vision for the group, but if the vision is a tough physical 3rd pair, Joki will likely traded.  To valuable a player to sit.  If the vision is to field the 6 most capable D than Joki remains and Stillman drops to the 7th slot. 

Ultimately, KA shouldn’t be afraid to move on from any of the D below the top 3.  None are all that great and all are upgradable and replaceable.  If one needs to be traded to get a legit partner for Power so be it.

 

 

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What are you talking about? KA specifically brought in Stillman and Lyubushkin to bring a physical presence to our D group.  Stillman and Lyubishkin are currently paired together. We aren’t talking about Mule or Dahlin, we are talking about what to do with Joki and the 3rd pair.  If KA/DG likes the two physical D together, that leaves Joki as an extra once a partner for Power is acquired.  

Let’s not forget that Joki is a competent player, but does nothing great.  He is a decent in zone defender, he skates fine, but doesn’t add much O, rarely hits anyone or blocks any shots.  By comparison Mule has nearly twice the hits and twice the blocks while averaging only 1 minute more of PT per game. 

If Joki partners with either Stillman or Bush that’s fine as well.  It all depends on KA’s vision for the group, but if the vision is a tough physical 3rd pair, Joki will likely traded.  To valuable a player to sit.  If the vision is to field the 6 most capable D than Joki remains and Stillman drops to the 7th slot. 

Ultimately, KA shouldn’t be afraid to move on from any of the D below the top 3.  None are all that great and all are upgradable and replaceable.  If one needs to be traded to get a legit partner for Power so be it.

 

 

I'm supremely confident that Joki will not be traded. You can be as zealous/stubborn on this issue as much as you want to be. The primary problem associated with our blueline unit is its lack of depth. Shipping out one of the players currently in the second pairing makes no sense. I have repeatedly said that if a better defenseman or more is brought in that it would make sense to drop Joki down. Stylistically, Joki is different from some of the other players on the unit. So what? You may not accept  Granato's evaluation of Joki but it is definitely much higher than yours. And he has said on a number of occasions that he believes that he has even more upside to draw from. The problem is not replacing Joki as it is to add another player or two to the mix. 

Edited March 13, 2023 by JohnC

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

He already brought in another bottom pair guy with Stillman.   

To get better you have to add better players.  Bringing in more Lyubushkin/Stillman level players is not the answer.  

Bring in one really good and experienced top 4 guy.  If that person moves Joker, or even Samuelsson,  down to 5/6 so be it. 

The idea of a trade is to get better.  Not to spend resources on the same level you have.  

With respect to the highlighted segment: That's exactly what I have been saying all along. The solution is to add players and not subtract them in order to replace the subtraction. 

[Thorner]

Sigh 

[Stoner]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Sigh 

For good reason: job security.

[Weave]

14 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Sigh 

Someday the die roll won’t come up snake eyes.  No, really.

[Flashsabre]

35 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Sigh 

Who is this Marino clown? That is a terrible interpretation of what Friedman was saying. First of all it was just Friedman thinking out loud, not anything he has heard as official and vetted info.

1) he heard Rumors that UPL was available and that sabres were looking for a goalie. Sabres were upset that the story leaked.

2) Friedman thinks they were upset because they want Levi to sign and thinks if they got another goalie it might block his path.

3) Friedman THINKS that they wanted to show Levi a clear path to be starter next season if he was good enough.

4) Chad D said he spoke to a source who said the story is BS.

Edit: here is Chad’s response and the audio:

 

Edited March 13, 2023 by Flashsabre

[Weave]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Whenever they watch the dark knight and realize you need to make your own luck, ya 

Rolling dice rather than flipping a coin where you’ve already seen to either outcome being manageable is exactly the issue 

Two face dies though, so ymmv 

but he lived, dammit 

[dudacek]

30 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

For good reason: job security.

 

Putting all your eggs into a rookie goalie who has never played an NHL game is an exercise in job security?

 

6 minutes ago, Weave said: