Eichel thrown under the bus by Vegas HC Bruce Cassidy

[shrader]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Good stuff here.  I wonder If Eichel ever wonders what would’ve happened if he’d had DG as his coach.  I wonder about it.  

Maybe he’d come back to be our #2 center. Oh wait, he’s producing at the same rate as Cozens, so maybe that would be the #3 center. 

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, mjd1001 said:

Even when Eichel had his hot start, was 'on a tear', he still wasn't elite.  His hot start ended at game 21 this year, after which is points per game production started to slip. EVEN THEN, at his PPG peak during his hot start, he was getting 1.23 PPG. At that rate, he would still be 12th -14th in the league.  When you cherry pick the part of the season where he was playing the best and absolute healthiest, and compare that to the rest of the league when it is likely other players have had hot and cold streaks and have been playing injured, the best you can do with Eichel is get him to peak, at one given moment, at 12th-14th in the league.

When he was with Buffalo before his surgery, he was 22nd in points per game in the league over that time.

Since he was traded to Vegas, he is 89th in the league in Points per game, including his hot start this year of course.

For his entire career, (Vegas and Buffalo combined) he is 27th in points per game.

And Points per game is the most generous way to look at him. Look at pure production, and he is farther down the list due to his games missed.

He is who he is.  A guy that on occasion can look like he has extreme talent, but in the end, is a good-to-very good player in terms of putting up points, but thats it. Not generational, not elite, not even a half step below elite.  We have 8 seasons now of seeing him with very good linemates, with different coaches, with different teams, and he is what he is.

The 2nd best thing that can happen for any team Eichel plays for is for them to realize he isn't going to carry the team, and instead view him as a 2nd or 3rd best forward.   The BEST thing that can happen for any team Eichel plays for is for Jack himself to realize he isn't good enough to carry a team and to play that 'supporting role'.  

I agree with this mostly and good post but “good players for 8 years” thing is objectively false. The teams were the rats ass his first few years after the scorched earth tank

And it got WORSE when Jack actually got good ie wasn’t on his elc ages 18-20 anymore. That’s when we dealt ROR and played Johansson at 2C - the year jack became point a game 

Saying those teams were actually good would be extreme revisionist history 

[mjd1001]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I agree with this mostly and good post but “good players for 8 years” thing is objectively false. The teams were the rats ass his first few years after the scorched earth tank

I didn't say good players for 8 years.  I said "We have 8 seasons now of seeing him with very good linemates, with different coaches, with different teams"  The reason I wrote it that way is he has had All of those things over the coure of 8 years, not that he had All of them for All 8 years.  I tried to put that into context, but I probably could have written it a bit better.

Edited January 29, 2023 by mjd1001

[Thorner]

We can blame Jack all we want but everyone knows in their heart of hearts the team and management was dysfunctional as well during the lions share of his time here. The fact they TANKED TO GET HIM proves the ineptitude preceded him. So blame Jack, do it. But blame both. 

2 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I didn't say good players for 8 years.  I said "We have 8 seasons now of seeing him with very good linemates, with different coaches, with different teams"  The reason I wrote it that way is he has had ALL of those things over the coure of 8 years, not that he had ALL of them for ALL 8 years.  I tried to put that into context, but I probably could have written it a bit better.

Oh ic that makes sense thanks for the clarification 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Getzlaf might work for what Jack should have been, but not for who he is.

Years 6-8 he stayed at the table and cemented himself as 1st-line centre. And that was after he had won a Stanley Cup.

To the best of my recollection he never clashed with his coaches or management, forced a trade, suffered serious injury or put up the kind of numbers Jack has the last 3 seasons. These are all parts of Jack’s story.

You’ve put a lot of emphasis on Jack’s first 5 seasons during this discussion, but you can’t ignore the past three.

[Thorner]

23 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Getzlaf might work for what Jack should have been, but not for who he is.

Years 6-8 he stayed at the table and cemented himself as 1st-line centre. And that was after he had won a Stanley Cup.

To the best of my recollection he never clashed with his coaches or management, forced a trade, suffered serious injury or put up the kind of numbers Jack has the last 3 seasons. These are all parts of Jack’s story.

You’ve put a lot of emphasis on Jack’s first 5 seasons during this discussion, but you can’t ignore the past three.

Yup, ignore the last 3 is *exactly* what I’ve done, if you read all my endless posts in this discussion /s

I’ve talked about the recent 3 a lot, multiple times. Don’t know how many ways I have to say it. 

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

There’s a few 60 gamers early in his career to the tune of Ryan Getzlaf being a great comparable (even stylistically not far off, also both big bodied playmakers), until that big “21” shows up on Jack’s dB page. Like intimated earlier - if he gets back to 65/70 a year, if he can match Getzlaf’s will, could have an answer 

They even both had 82 in 77 early on and then a 90 point (78 in 68, COVID) season right after. 

Striking actually 

^ not only that 

..but you literally said “assuming they same highs and lows we’ve seen thus far”. Jack’s career points per game, all 8 seasons, is .93. Getzlaf’s career is .88. You said “assuming the same highs and lows going forward.”. Jack has averaged 60 games a season, inclusive of all 8. Getzlaf averaged 72 games a season. 
 

Ive specifically posted in this thread about how Jack averaged 70 per, before the neck. And I specifically said  in my post addressing yours, “if he gets back” 

I don’t think I’m doing any ignoring 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Thorny

[Taro T]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Getzlaf might work for what Jack should have been, but not for who he is.

Years 6-8 he stayed at the table and cemented himself as 1st-line centre. And that was after he had won a Stanley Cup.

To the best of my recollection he never clashed with his coaches or management, forced a trade, suffered serious injury or put up the kind of numbers Jack has the last 3 seasons. These are all parts of Jack’s story.

You’ve put a lot of emphasis on Jack’s first 5 seasons during this discussion, but you can’t ignore the past three.

And that is IMHO a big part of what in the end is going to leave Eichel as just another good player.  (His not being a Getzlaf nor MacKinnon style leader will be the rest of it.)

And also IMHO it is that tendency to be both injury prone & his ability to battle through injuries that a lot of guys might not play through that has & will continue to make his PPG lower than it probably should be.  That year he got 82 in 77, he had a long stretch (~8 games) w/ almost no point playing through a leg injury.  Last year he was playing w/ a broken thumb down the stretch and went very cold when his team needed him to produce something.  Unless he can somehow get healthy, he's always going to produce less than his team needs & his fan expects.

And like you say, you can't ignore his past 3 seasons, until he breaks out of @Thorny's term trajectory of those past 3 years, it's what should be expected.  He could break out of that, but until he does, won't expect it.

& don't believe he was ignoring them.  Just distinguishing between the stages of his career.

[DarthEbriate]

Another name to consider (Eichel should easily outproduce him... but if he stays in Vegas' bottom 6 for a couple years or has ongoing injuries, he might not)...   Matt Duchesne. Both started out on garbage rebuild teams, had a couple point-per-game level seasons with said garbage teams, and eventually were dealt for a newer core.

Duchesne's best season was just a couple seasons ago, but his cap hit has basically been a burden on Nashville every season. He had a couple flashes of promise, but never held onto a top-15 center spot in the league, even if he was a 1C on his own roster.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Getzlaf: 363 games 339 points 

Eichel: 354 games, 337 points 

come on now 

EVERYTHING WENT OFF TRACK when he hurt his neck. So far 

Sorry this one grinded my gears a bit 

31 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You’ve put a lot of emphasis on Jack’s first 5 seasons during this discussion, but you can’t ignore the past three.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Just now, Thorny said:

Sorry this one grinded my gears a bit 

 

I took your bolded as a handwaving of the past three years, like “the comparison still holds because Jack has been hurt.”

And my bolded was trying to say “but that’s a big reason why the comparison doesn’t hold up.”

No gear-grinding intended.

Logging off to watch game.

 

[matter2003]

4 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Well, for the record, that's not what you said.  You said this:

 

...i.e. that I don't want to see him still playing and playing well at 34/35 -- which is not the case and which is what I objected to.

Regardless, the reformulated question about whether I'd prefer to see him prove himself as a top-5 player is admittedly a tough one and kinda pins me down, which is of course the point of spirited discourse like this.

I suppose I think that if he is or turns into a good guy and good teammate, I'm fine with him turning into that kind of player, although in that case the evaluation of the trade from the Sabres' perspective would suffer.  If he's a demonstrable jerk, though, it would be hard to be happy with him being a fantastic player.

 

Was this confirmed?  I thought he was just a space cadet and injury-prone -- I didn't realize he had a substance abuse problem.

Yes...by Watkins himself in an interview with Ty Dunne.

[Thorner]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I took your bolded as a handwaving of the past three years, like “the comparison still holds because Jack has been hurt.”

And my bolded was trying to say “but that’s a big reason why the comparison doesn’t hold up.”

No gear-grinding intended.

Logging off to watch game.

 

Ya, my point was meant to be an interesting illustration of someone who Jack compared really quite closely to, for a while, before things took a turn. Interesting in that - I think what I was trying up allude to is that Getzlaf represents a reasonable goal for Jack to aspire to “get back to”, at least by way of health and (raw) production. Character stuff is an open question but I alluded to that as well when I said, “if he has the will”. 

Basically, I’m not saying he’s gonna catch McDavid in the end, just you wait. Or that he’s going to get back to elite, necessarily, even. Getzlaf represents a real target. Of course, it’s not a given. Have to see. 

If that doesn’t answer your question, then I change my submission to “d-bag Getzlaf with slightly better rate of scoring but while playing 12 less games a year.“ whoever that nhler is 

😄

Edited January 29, 2023 by Thorny

[Pimlach]

No Rayzor, he doesn’t want 77-74-22 as a line, so he split them up 

[Quint]

Looks  like Jack's running wild again in Las Vegas.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Quint

[Mango]

16 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Was this confirmed?  I thought he was just a space cadet and injury-prone -- I didn't realize he had a substance abuse problem.

Watkins is bonkers. He’s a flat-earther and thinks that lizard people run the government. 

[Weave]

10 minutes ago, Mango said:

Watkins is bonkers. He’s a flat-earther and thinks that lizard people run the government. 

I think he might be correct regarding lizard people running the government.

[JohnC]

26 minutes ago, Mango said:

Watkins is bonkers. He’s a flat-earther and thinks that lizard people run the government. 

So do some congressmen/women. 🤡

[nfreeman]

Well, Vegas lost again last night, bringing them to 2-8 in their last 10.  This loss was to the Islanders, who had lost 10 of their last 12 before playing Vegas.

Vegas went 0-3 on its NYC-area visit, losing to NJ, the Rangers and the Islanders.

[RochesterExpat]

7 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, Vegas lost again last night, bringing them to 2-8 in their last 10.  This loss was to the Islanders, who had lost 10 of their last 12 before playing Vegas.

Vegas went 0-3 on its NYC-area visit, losing to NJ, the Rangers and the Islanders.

So I watched most of the game (although Buffalo had my attention on the split screen) and my thoughts were: Logan Thompson saved that game from being a blow out. At the same time, Vegas' shooting is abysmal with Smith straight up missing a wide open net and a hilariously bad penalty shot in overtime. It's like the whole Vegas squad is snake bit. They didn't play like a 2-8 team. 

Then I read the stat line that Varlamov stopped 44 of 45 and couldn't believe he faced that many shots because it didn't sync with my eye test. Did a quick look at Vegas' shooting heat map for the season.

Compared to 21-22, 20-21, and 19-20.

 

I'm guessing those 45 shots on Varlamov were from such weak areas of the ice it didn't register as heavy shot volume in my mind. Or it's personal bias. Don't know. I guess if Vegas had won in OT, I'd have said Thompson stole them the game, but I don't feel like Varlamov stole the game for the Isles--despite facing more shots.

Either way, looks like Vegas doesn't have much of a net front presence.

 

[Porous Five Hole]

On 1/27/2023 at 6:55 PM, LGR4GM said:

I have heard a tale or two about Stetson. 

 

On 1/27/2023 at 6:14 PM, Contempt said:

From a source I trust Stetson Bennett is kind of a douche as well fwiw.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/georgia-bulldogs-quarterback-stetson-bennett-arrested-on-public-intoxication-charge-in-dallas-police-say/287-4f0caf3c-6d7d-4c46-a1fc-535aac7638a8
 

kinda like this?

[Broken Ankles]

Live look at Dudacek and Thorny.

 

[Happy Days]

Eichel is on my dynasty fantasy team.
His stat line yesterday was 0 points, 7 shots, 2 face off wins, 1 blocked shot

[K-9]

16 minutes ago, Happy Days said:

Eichel is on my dynasty fantasy team.
His stat line yesterday was 0 points, 7 shots, 2 face off wins, 1 blocked shot

He actually blocked a shot? Puck must have hit him by accident. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Well, Vegas lost again last night, bringing them to 2-8 in their last 10.  This loss was to the Islanders, who had lost 10 of their last 12 before playing Vegas.

Vegas went 0-3 on its NYC-area visit, losing to NJ, the Rangers and the Islanders.

I think it's the Mark Stone injury that seems to have hit them hardest. He's the key to that team, not Eichel. 

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

Live look at Dudacek and Thorny.

 

Dibs on the dude with hair