How bad is Casey Mittelstadt?

[LGR4GM]

7 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

He scores goals. VO still has more points than Quinn even though he has been demoted a long time ago. Win now? 

To win. Winning is important NOW, right? 

He has more games played which is why he has more points. Olofsson does nothing but wait in space, that's it. Demoting Quinn for olofsson is asinine from a development and winning standpoint. 

[JohnC]

50 minutes ago, dudacek said:

If you're talking about comparing the emerging young corps, I don't think there's much of a comparison. Buffalo has better pieces and more of them:

• Thompson >> Larkin
• Tuch > Bertuzzi (who is older and a pending UFA)
• Cozens >> Veleno
• Mittelstadt ~ Mittelstadt
• Quinn <? Raymond
• Peterka ~ Berggren
• Krebs ~ Zadina
• Savoie ~ Kasper
• Östlund
• Kulich
• Dahlin >? Seider
• Power > Eidvisson
• Samuelsson
• Jokharju < Hronek
• Johnson ~ Wallinder
• UPL ? Nedjelkovic
• Levi ? Cossa

I mean you can quibble with some of my off-the-cuff rankings, and who knows how youngsters develop, but it's pretty clear that Buffalo is ahead in terms of emerging talent.

I have repeatedly said that I would take our roster over Detroit's. I also believe that the teams are in the same strata. The record and standing points indicate that. You also have to consider that Yzerman seems to be more willing to augment his young core with outside talent. Is that a better approach or not? Only time will tell. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by JohnC

[LGR4GM]

Just now, JohnC said:

I have repeatedly said that I would take our roster over Detroit's. I also believe that the teams are in the same strata. The record and standing points also indicate that. You also have to consider that Yzerman seems to be more willing to augment his young core with outside talent. Is that a better approach or not? Only time will tell. 

Yzerman has to augment his core. He doesn't have the talent in the org to do otherwise. Without jjp and Quinn, Adams would have needed to also do that. Without Power he'd also need to add. 

Detroit is thin, how Yzerman fixes that will be interesting. His drafting to this point has been interesting and shows a different philosophy to Adams.

[Refuting]

7 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

He scores goals. VO still has more points than Quinn even though he has been demoted a long time ago. Win now? 

To win. Winning is important NOW, right? 

Give Oloffson more minutes 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Yzerman has to augment his core. He doesn't have the talent in the org to do otherwise. Without jjp and Quinn, Adams would have needed to also do that. Without Power he'd also need to add. 

Detroit is thin, how Yzerman fixes that will be interesting. His drafting to this point has been interesting and shows a different philosophy to Adams.

I'm not making any conclusive judgment in which team is on a better pathway to success. It's simply too soon.  Right now, I would say Buffalo has the edge. But Yzerman has had a history of success of being an integral part of rebuilding two franchises. And as you astutely point out Yzerman's approach is different, although not dramatically so, from Adams's approach.  

[Taro T]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

He has more games played which is why he has more points. Olofsson does nothing but wait in space, that's it. Demoting Quinn for olofsson is asinine from a development and winning standpoint. 

Not ALL he does, but yeah when not scoring empty netters, it is far and away the way he pots the bulk of his goals.

He's at his best on a line w/ a true digger & a true setup man.  With both, he's a poor man's 1st liner.  Without 1, he's a 3rd liner.  Without both, well, let's just leave it at he's not a driver.  In that case, if he's with a couple of defensively responsible teammates, he can be good enough defensively but he won't be scoring. 

Agree that Quinn's ceiling is far higher & the smart play is to be doing w/ Quinn what they already are doing.  Giving him sheltered minutes at 5v5 when possible.  (And it hasn't been possible much since demoting the Mittelstadt line to line 3.  If they continue to pick up their play, then the Kid Line can get easier minutes again & do their full on RAV Line impersonation.)  But also getting him PP & PK time on 2 PP & 3PK.  As he & Peterka show they might be able to handle tougher assignments, they get them.  But they aren't put in situations where they'd be likely to fail.  Thus them playing in all situations the 1st 2 periods, but losing some shifts in the 3rd when good teams are desperate to come back.

And growing that Kid Line into a true 2nd line behind the Thompson line will be tremendous for the long term success of this team.  Which is what THIS year is all about.  We're watching what the Carolina fans missed in '04-'05.

[JohnC]

11 hours ago, Taro T said:

Not ALL he does, but yeah when not scoring empty netters, it is far and away the way he pots the bulk of his goals.

He's at his best on a line w/ a true digger & a true setup man.  With both, he's a poor man's 1st liner.  Without 1, he's a 3rd liner.  Without both, well, let's just leave it at he's not a driver.  In that case, if he's with a couple of defensively responsible teammates, he can be good enough defensively but he won't be scoring. 

Agree that Quinn's ceiling is far higher & the smart play is to be doing w/ Quinn what they already are doing.  Giving him sheltered minutes at 5v5 when possible.  (And it hasn't been possible much since demoting the Mittelstadt line to line 3.  If they continue to pick up their play, then the Kid Line can get easier minutes again & do their full on RAV Line impersonation.)  But also getting him PP & PK time on 2 PP & 3PK.  As he & Peterka show they might be able to handle tougher assignments, they get them.  But they aren't put in situations where they'd be likely to fail.  Thus them playing in all situations the 1st 2 periods, but losing some shifts in the 3rd when good teams are desperate to come back.

And growing that Kid Line into a true 2nd line behind the Thompson line will be tremendous for the long term success of this team.  Which is what THIS year is all about.  We're watching what the Carolina fans missed in '04-'05.

You make some interesting observations in the way DG handles his young players in order to allow them to deal with the vicissitudes of being a young player at this higher level of hockey. As you point out, Quinn and Peterka have lately struggled. This was after they previously sparkled. The opposition adjusted to them causing them to hit a plateau.  The coach's response was to lessen their roles in higher stress situations, most notably at the end of the games. I'm confident that in the near future these two talented youngsters will find their footing, and as you point out, their struggling experience will ultimately enhance their development. 

The issue for me is whether the coach can put Mitts in a position to succeed. While I'm more upbeat about Mitts (and Joki and Olofsson) than most of the skeptics here, I hope the coach can get Mitts to play at a more consistent level and contribute to spreading out the production beyond our prolific first line. We shall see.

 

 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

You make some interesting observations in the way DG handles his young players in order to allow them to deal with the vicissitudes of being a young player at this higher level of hockey. As you point out, Quinn and Peterka have lately struggled. This was after they previously sparkled. The opposition adjusted to them causing them to hit a plateau.  The coach's response was to lessen their roles in higher stress situations, most notably at the end of the games. I'm confident that in the near future these two talented youngsters will find their footing, and as you point out, their struggling experience will ultimately enhance their development. 

The issue for me is whether the coach can put Mitts in a position to succeed. While I'm more upbeat about Mitts (and Joki and Olofsson) than most of the skeptics here, I hope the coach can get Mitts to play at a more consistent level and contribute to spreading out the production beyond our prolific first line. We shall see.

 

 

Granato's been deploying his line as the 3rd scoring line.  Considering all the other 3 lines do have chemistry, there isn't much more he can do without benching Olofsson, and we've seen he isn't benching VO.  

He seems to play well w/ Jost.  The 1st few games they didn't seem in sync, but it has been better the last 6 or so games.  Even to the point where in the last game they were able to set up Olofsson for a couple of chances & the goal they scored.  They weren't getting chances earlier.  Will it continue?  Granato seems to think so.  Personally hope so.

We get another chance to watch the experiment unfold at 7PM tonight.  Looking forward to it.

 

[Refuting]

On 1/6/2023 at 3:03 PM, Refuting said:

Give Oloffson more minutes 

WHATS GOOD 

[Crusader1969]

Wish they’d close this thread.   This team is giving us all they have and all 4 lines are contributing.   Time to move on from the negative and embrace positivity 

[LGR4GM]

Just now, Crusader1969 said:

Wish they’d close this thread.   This team is giving us all they have and all 4 lines are contributing.   Time to move on from the negative and embrace positivity 

Yea I'm just gonna enjoy this ride. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Crusader1969 said:

Wish they’d close this thread.   This team is giving us all they have and all 4 lines are contributing.   Time to move on from the negative and embrace positivity 

This thread is a question, not a statement.

The answer tonight was “not too bad at all.”

I’m going to make a callback to the sentiment “we need more guys like Reaves and less guys like Casey and Victor.”

Pretty sure Casey and Victor owned Reaves and his linemates tonight.

[Contempt]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Pretty sure Casey and Victor owned Reaves and his linemates tonight.

Key word being "tonight". If Mittelstadt played like that all the time, or even close to all the time, nobody would say things like that.

[Crusader1969]

3 minutes ago, Contempt said:

Key word being "tonight". If Mittelstadt played like that all the time, or even close to all the time, nobody would say things like that.

I thought their line has been pretty good for a few games now 

[Contempt]

Just now, Crusader1969 said:

I thought their line has been pretty good for a few games now 

Me too, consistency has been the issue though.  A couple good games doesn't cut it.  He needs to show it for a longer period of time.  I'll say it again, for as well as he played tonight he STILL almost gave the game away in OT. UPL bailed him out big time.

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Contempt said:

Me too, consistency has been the issue though.  A couple good games doesn't cut it.  He needs to show it for a longer period of time.  I'll say it again, for as well as he played tonight he STILL almost gave the game away in OT. UPL bailed him out big time.

 

2 minutes ago, Contempt said:

Me too, consistency has been the issue though.  A couple good games doesn't cut it.  He needs to show it for a longer period of time.  I'll say it again, for as well as he played tonight he STILL almost gave the game away in OT. UPL bailed him out big time.

I think his better play (and the drop in play of Quinn and Peterka) has roughly coincided with when Donnie started giving the harder matchups to the Cozens line instead of the Mitts line.

Not sure when the switch happened, but Casey has 10 points in his past 12 games, 8 of them at even strength. He’s also a +2 and sporting a 55.2 % Corsi.

Maybe he’s not a good 2nd liner, but he is a good 3rd liner.

[GASabresIUFAN]

11 minutes ago, Contempt said:

Me too, consistency has been the issue though.  A couple good games doesn't cut it.  He needs to show it for a longer period of time.  I'll say it again, for as well as he played tonight he STILL almost gave the game away in OT. UPL bailed him out big time.

Seriously?  In his last 11 games Casey has 2g 8a and a +4 with no game worse than a -1.  It’s not just one good game or even a couple.  It’s 3 weeks of pretty solid play.  

[Contempt]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Seriously?  In his last 11 games Casey has 2g 8a and a +4 with no game worse than a -1.  It’s not just one good game or even a couple.  It’s 3 weeks of pretty solid play.  

He has been playing well.  Let's agree to revisit his play in mid February and see if it continues or if he regresses back to his usual.

[Doohicksie]

On 1/6/2023 at 1:26 PM, JohnC said:

I'm more than pleased with how KA has overseen the Sabre operation. 

I think with tonight's game against the Wild, I see KA as having a secret weapon:  Donny Meatballs.  He takes the players he's got and molds them into the players he wants.  Look what he did with the kid line.  Yeah, they've cooled off lately but you can see what's there.  Look at what he's done with Krebs.  And now with tonight's game, I'm starting to think VO and Mitts are on the list of players that Donny has developed/rejuvenated.

I don't know much about Lalonde's coaching style, but it seems to me that most coaches have a style of play and system they want their players to follow, and that they generally expect their players to get on board.  Donny works with the players to get them to evolve into the players he wants, and also adjusts his system to put them in a position to succeed.  I think a lot of coaches try to do the latter, but Donny really does work with players to make them better.  It's the developmental mindset.

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I think with tonight's game against the Wild, I see KA as having a secret weapon:  Donny Meatballs.  He takes the players he's got and molds them into the players he wants.  Look what he did with the kid line.  Yeah, they've cooled off lately but you can see what's there.  Look at what he's done with Krebs.  And now with tonight's game, I'm starting to think VO and Mitts are on the list of players that Donny has developed/rejuvenated.

I don't know much about Lalonde's coaching style, but it seems to me that most coaches have a style of play and system they want their players to follow, and that they generally expect their players to get on board.  Donny works with the players to get them to evolve into the players he wants, and also adjusts his system to put them in a position to succeed.  I think a lot of coaches try to do the latter, but Donny really does work with players to make them better.  It's the developmental mindset.

Donny is a different bird. I heard his pregame interview tonight and he made a comment that struck home on his commitment to development. He said he won’t sacrifice winning consistently for one win. I never quite heard it put that way. And he’s fortunate to have a GM that seems to be on the exact same page. 

[Doohicksie]

On 1/6/2023 at 10:00 PM, Taro T said:

He's at his best on a line w/ a true digger & a true setup man.  With both, he's a poor man's 1st liner.  Without 1, he's a 3rd liner.  Without both, well, let's just leave it at he's not a driver.

I think the Jost line is starting to gel now.  Casey is to an extent both a digger and a setup man.  Jost is a digger and a distributor (different from setup in that he doesn't necessarily set up good scoring chances but he keeps the play moving). 

I will say that although he isn't top notch, Olofsson is getting better at being a two-way player.  He's positionally better but on defense doesn't always make the play.  The 3rd Minnesota goal illustrates that:  He correctly picks up the man on the half wall and follows him back to the point.  But when the Minny players curls back around to head back in before taking his shot/pass (which was tipped in), Ollie circles back to the middle and allows too much room.  He's there, he's doing the right thing, but then he got outmaneuvered.  He can see the effort is there but he doesn't quite execute the play properly.  I think that particular play will be used in video review to show him how to play that better.

[Doohicksie]

8 minutes ago, K-9 said:

And he’s fortunate to have a GM that seems to be on the exact same page.

He's also fortunate to have a GM that is able to convince ownership that this is the correct path.  I've said it before:  Unlike previous Pegula-era GMs, the Pegulas place a lot more faith in Kevyn and have given him freer rein on the club.  I think it's a two way street though; I think he communicates with them and keeps them up to date and gets their buy-in better than JBot or XGMTM.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Doohickie

[Taro T]

18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

I think his better play (and the drop in play of Quinn and Peterka) has roughly coincided with when Donnie started giving the harder matchups to the Cozens line instead of the Mitts line.

Not sure when the switch happened, but Casey has 10 points in his past 12 games, 8 of them at even strength. He’s also a +2 and sporting a 55.2 % Corsi.

Maybe he’s not a good 2nd liner, but he is a good 3rd liner.

The Kid Line was promoted against Joisey.

Mittelstadt & Olofsson did not initially play better at that switch.  They actually dropped off slightly IMHO.

And it took a handful of games to adjust to Jost.  But, again IMHO, Mittelstadt's play had a dramatic shift in style ~7 games ago though not results.  The past 4 he's actually had an increase in effectiveness to go w/ that shift in style.  And Granato is recognizing & rewarding that w/ stuff like getting to play in OT the last 2 games.

That line is not ready to bump back up to 2nd line duty.  Maybe they never will be.  But, if he can stay on this present trajectory the way other underachievers (an unfair term, but basically young guys that haven't had the light bulb go on yet, though the talent is there) that Granato believed in have done; about the time the team comes back from the AS break they'll get another crack at it.  Which would also work wonders for reignighting the Kid Line again.

Could honestly see that line being effective at 2nd line duty in a month or 2, though not necessarily good.  If it does get there, other teams won't be able to exploit either it or the other middle 6 line in the MMArena; and trust that Granato will adjust their deployments on the road to minimize it there too.

And the Kid Line was on fire those 1st few games after the switch.  But you can only run on adrenaline so far.

[LGR4GM]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

I think his better play (and the drop in play of Quinn and Peterka) has roughly coincided with when Donnie started giving the harder matchups to the Cozens line instead of the Mitts line.

Not sure when the switch happened, but Casey has 10 points in his past 12 games, 8 of them at even strength. He’s also a +2 and sporting a 55.2 % Corsi.

Maybe he’s not a good 2nd liner, but he is a good 3rd liner.

Starting to agree. Mitts might be a good/ok 3rd line winger.

6 hours ago, Taro T said:

The Kid Line was promoted against Joisey.

Mittelstadt & Olofsson did not initially play better at that switch.  They actually dropped off slightly IMHO.

And it took a handful of games to adjust to Jost.  But, again IMHO, Mittelstadt's play had a dramatic shift in style ~7 games ago though not results.  The past 4 he's actually had an increase in effectiveness to go w/ that shift in style.  And Granato is recognizing & rewarding that w/ stuff like getting to play in OT the last 2 games.

That line is not ready to bump back up to 2nd line duty.  Maybe they never will be.  But, if he can stay on this present trajectory the way other underachievers (an unfair term, but basically young guys that haven't had the light bulb go on yet, though the talent is there) that Granato believed in have done; about the time the team comes back from the AS break they'll get another crack at it.  Which would also work wonders for reignighting the Kid Line again.

Could honestly see that line being effective at 2nd line duty in a month or 2, though not necessarily good.  If it does get there, other teams won't be able to exploit either it or the other middle 6 line in the MMArena; and trust that Granato will adjust their deployments on the road to minimize it there too.

And the Kid Line was on fire those 1st few games after the switch.  But you can only run on adrenaline so far.

They don't have to bump up. We have the depth now to mismatch lines against other teams. 

Also I think Jost deserves a lot of credit because he can cover some of the lines issues. 

[Turbo44]

9 hours ago, Contempt said:

Key word being "tonight". If Mittelstadt played like that all the time, or even close to all the time, nobody would say things like that.

Was at the game and Mitts was extraordinary last night. Vs Minnnesota he knew everybody back home would be watching ……