How bad is Casey Mittelstadt?

[Doohicksie]

6 hours ago, French Collection said:

He could slot into the 3C role at some point but I don’t think his line mates should be VO and Mitts. Jost is stronger defensively for that role right now.

VO could benefit from a playmaker like Krebs, he just needs to work harder at 5v5.

 I've suggested it before that either Mitts or VO should be traded out into the Krebs line.  I was hopeful Donny might try some different line combinations right now since the Sabres are off until Saturday but I heard the practice lines today had no changes.

[bob_sauve28]

12 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Alright which winger are you demoting? Skinner, Tuch, Peterka, or Quinn?

Oh, I'd switch him and Quinn in a New York minute. Rather have Mitts switch with Krebs 

[K-9]

4 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

 I've suggested it before that either Mitts or VO should be traded out into the Krebs line.  I was hopeful Donny might try some different line combinations right now since the Sabres are off until Saturday but I heard the practice lines today had no changes.

Mitts I could see, but VO would absolutely worsen the Girgs/Okposo pair. And VO would provide little for Krebs’s development. Like I said weeks ago, no matter where you put Mitts or VO after splitting them up is gonna screw up another line that is working pretty well at the moment.

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

no matter where you put Mitts or VO after splitting them up is gonna screw up another line that is working pretty well at the moment.

No pain, no gain.

However there has been a shift more toward a "win now" mode so as long as the Sabres are playing well Donny's not gonna upset the apple cart.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, K-9 said:

Mitts I could see, but VO would absolutely worsen the Girgs/Okposo pair. And VO would provide little for Krebs’s development. Like I said weeks ago, no matter where you put Mitts or VO after splitting them up is gonna screw up another line that is working pretty well at the moment.

You basically repeated what DG said on WGR a couple of weeks ago in his weekly appearance on WGR when addressing the issue of the Mitts and VO line. He pointed out that disrupting the other lines, including the Okposo/Krebs/Girgs line, would create other problems. What's different this week is that Quinn and JJ are currently struggling while Cozens is elevating his play. I would rather stay the course and let things play out longer. The coach is not afraid to juggle lines. And as you have previously pointed out he is not afraid to juggle lines in the games. So I'll trust his judgment on the composition of the lines. 

[IKnowPhysics]

3 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Oh, I'd switch him and Quinn in a New York minute.

I wouldn't.  JJ-Cozens-Quinn when backed by Dahlin are posting incredible numbers:

5.93 GF/60, 4.23GA/60

3.19xGF/60, 2.13xGA/60

And I wouldn't upset Skinner-Tuch-Thompson when they're backed by Power either:

5.22GF/60, 1.42GA/60

3.86xGF/60, 3.63xGA/60

In terms of offense, Granato's playing one of the best top lines in hockey and playing likely the best second line in hockey.

Individual on ice 5v5 GF/60, GA/60 with NHL ranks (all skaters):

Skinner 4.83 (6th), 2.48

Thompson 4.33 (16th), 2.48

Tuch 3.72 (49th), 1.92 (215th)

Power 3.95 (35th), 3.95

JJ 3.34 (105th), 3.21

Cozens 3.37 (99th), 3.51

Quinn 3.99 (33rd), 2.95

Dahlin 3.32 (108th), 2.43

(Top 160 would be something like 32 teams x five skaters (1st line).  Top 320 would be 32 teams x 10 skaters (2nd line).)

Sabres have a league-leading 142 goals and Thompson (30), Tuch (18), Skinner (17), Cozens (12), Dahlin (10), JJ (7), Quinn (6) total for 100 of them (70%).  68 of those goals were even strength, which is 80% of our 85 even strength goals.  80% of our EV goals.  Eight.  Zero.

I couldn't touch those top two lines with a ten foot pole, even if the bottom six can't get their ***** straightened out. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by IKnowPhysics

[IKnowPhysics]

But this is Granato's special hell.  He's got three problems:

Goaltending, 3rd D Pair, and Bottom Six

If he can solve two of those problems, we're in the playoffs.  And Anderson and 6K are looking ok lately... so what's the other one going to be?

 

I'd be shuffling Mittelstadt/Krebs/Okposo/Girgensens/Asplund/Olofsson/Jost any which I can to try to get something going.

 

[bob_sauve28]

9 minutes ago, IKnowPhysics said:

I wouldn't.  JJ-Cozens-Quinn when backed by Dahlin are posting incredible numbers:

5.93 GF/60, 4.23GA/60

3.19xGF/60, 2.13xGA/60

And I wouldn't upset Skinner-Tuch-Thompson when they're backed by Power either:

5.22GF/60, 1.42GA/60

3.86xGF/60, 3.63xGA/60

In terms of offense, Granato's playing one of the best top lines in hockey and playing likely the best second line in hockey.

Individual on ice 5v5 GF/60, GA/60 with NHL ranks (all skaters):

Skinner 4.83 (6th), 2.48

Thompson 4.33 (16th), 2.48

Tuch 3.72 (49th), 1.92 (215th)

Power 3.95 (35th), 3.95

JJ 3.34 (105th), 3.21

Cozens 3.37 (99th), 3.51

Quinn 3.99 (33rd), 2.95

Dahlin 3.32 (108th), 2.43

(Top 160 would be something like 32 teams x five skaters (1st line).  Top 320 would be 32 teams x 10 skaters (2nd line).)

Sabres have a league-leading 142 goals and Thompson (30), Tuch (18), Skinner (17), Cozens (12), Dahlin (10), JJ (7), Quinn (6) total for 100 of them (70%).  68 of those goals were even strength, which is 80% of our 85 even strength goals.  80% of our EV goals.  Eight.  Zero.

I couldn't touch those top two lines with a ten foot pole, even if the bottom six can't get their ***** straightened out. 

So if VO made the second line more potent, you still wouldn’t do it? VO is real good and was just ripping it up before being sent to Mitts line. 
 

And if not that, Mitts would be fine with KO and Girgs, whereas Krebs might just ignite VO. 
 

You can always tinker to make things better. The sky won’t fall if Victor is given a chance again 

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, IKnowPhysics said:

But this is Granato's special hell.  He's got three problems:

Goaltending, 3rd D Pair, and Bottom Six

If he can solve two of those problems, we're in the playoffs.  And Anderson and 6K are looking ok lately... so what's the other one going to be?

 

I'd be shuffling Mittelstadt/Krebs/Okposo/Girgensens/Asplund/Olofsson/Jost any which I can to try to get something going.

 

Is it really a special hell? Or is it just a way to improve?

What if he just makes sure Samuelsson and Dahlin stay healthy?

After all, they are 16-5-2 when that’s the case, no matter how bad people say Bryson and Casey are playing.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Is it really a special hell? Or is it just a way to improve?

What if he just makes sure Samuelsson and Dahlin stay healthy?

After all, they are 16-5-2 when that’s the case, no matter how bad people say Bryson and Casey are playing.

Good point, and to further it.

Granato seems to be the line whisperer.  Even moves that seemed reasonably obvious given the alternatives (like putting Skinner back on the 1st line) have worked out better than anybody expected.  Sure, everybody thought Skinner would score goals there, but also expected him to cause some pretty egregious goals against (which actually happened twice early in the season last year ) and didn't expect him to be much, if any sort, of a playmaker.  But Skinner has become way more of a complete player under Granato than he ever was.  He makes really nice passes to the twin towers on his line & while he'll never be confused w/ Mike Peca his play in his own zone is better & doesn't cost them games.

Obviously, he believed in Thompson & was literally the only person that thought moving him to C was a good idea.  It wasn't just good, it was inspired.

He had Cozens go up against McDavid shift after shift when he was barely more than a rookie.

Quinn was playing reasonably well, but Granato set him down 2 games.  He then moved him to Cozens & Peterka's like & they played very well even catching fire for about 10 games.  The line has cooled down, but Quinn & to a lesser extent Peterka are getting PK duty & they're really doing well there.

People wanted Krebs sent to the AHL rather than sit in the pressbox for seemingly a month after watching him get muscled around and make really poor passing decisions.  Granato didn't do that.  Now he looks like he really belongs here.

Granted, it was out of necessity, but he started playing UPL against tough competition even though he looked really overmatched his 1st couple of games.  He's now giving the Sabres a chance to win every night.

None of these were the obvious homeruns they seem to be at the time the decision was made.  And some took time to really cook (Skinner, UPL, Krebs).

If Granato believes Mittelstadt has more to show & expects he can bring it out of him, will not expect he'll be wrong.  

(And even though Power Jokiharju isn't this kid's favorite pairing, expect it'll work out too.)

Edited January 6, 2023 by Taro T

[JohnC]

22 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Good point, and to further it.

Granato seems to be the line whisperer.  Even moves that seemed reasonably obvious given the alternatives (like putting Skinner back on the 1st line) have worked out better than anybody expected.  Sure, everybody thought Skinner would score goals there, but also expected him to cause some pretty egregious goals against (which actually happened twice early in the season last year ) and didn't expect him to be much, if any sort, of a playmaker.  But Skinner has become way more of a complete player under Granato than he ever was.  He makes really nice passes to the twin towers on his line & while he'll never be confused w/ Mike Peca his play in his own zone is better & doesn't cost them games.

Obviously, he believed in Thompson & was literally the only person that thought moving him to C was a good idea.  It wasn't just good, it was inspired.

He had Cozens go up against McDavid shift after shift when he was barely more than a rookie.

Quinn was playing reasonably well, but Granato set him down 2 games.  He then moved him to Cozens & Peterka's like & they played very well even catching fire for about 10 games.  The line has cooled down, but Quinn & to a lesser extent Peterka are getting PK duty & they're really doing well there.

People wanted Krebs sent to the AHL rather than sit in the pressbox for seemingly a month after watching him get muscled around and make really poor passing decisions.  Granato didn't do that.  Now he looks like he really belongs here.

Granted, it was out of necessity, but he started playing UPL against tough competition even though he looked really overmatched his 1st couple of games.  He's now giving the Sabres a chance to win every night.

None of these were the obvious homeruns they seem to be at the time the decision was made.  And some took time to really cook (Skinner, UPL, Krebs).

If Granato believes Mittelstadt has more to show & expects he can bring it out of him, will not expect he'll be wrong.  

(And even though Power Jokiharju isn't this kid's favorite pairing, expect it'll work out too.)

Moving Krebs to the Girgs/Okposo line seemed odd to me when it was made. Krebs just seemed to be an incongruous fit with those two thumpers who played a simple game with little flash. Boy was I wrong! It was a brilliant move that forced the loose playing Krebs to play a more simplified and tighter game. Although I don't think that it is a line meant to be together for the long term, its major benefit was to make a younger player play in a more of a mature fashion. Another coaching factor that compelled Krebs to alter his loose style of play was sitting him for a number of games. (As you noted.) I'm sure that got his attention. 

With respect to Joki I'm more positive about him than most are. He's still a young player with upside. (This observation on upside has been noted by DG on more than a few occasions.) And he seems to know how to play with talented players such as Power. 

Repeating what you have said about the coach, his forte is in working with and developing young players. There is no question that he is the right coach for this young team. KA has made a number of transactions that have worked out well. Retaining DG as the coach may be his most consequential decision. 

[irregularly irregular]

7 hours ago, K-9 said:

Mitts I could see, but VO would absolutely worsen the Girgs/Okposo pair. And VO would provide little for Krebs’s development. Like I said weeks ago, no matter where you put Mitts or VO after splitting them up is gonna screw up another line that is working pretty well at the moment.

Maybe a nice seat in the press box after having a "Come to Jesus" discussion would be helpful. No messing up other lines. Vinny or Rasmus are certainly chomping at the bit to show what they have to offer in a game situation. Maybe not now, but the time will come where DG needs to shake things up. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by irregularly irregular
better grammar, like usual

[LGR4GM]

6 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Oh, I'd switch him and Quinn in a New York minute. 

Eww why?

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

So if VO made the second line more potent, you still wouldn’t do it? VO is real good and was just ripping it up before being sent to Mitts line. 
 

And if not that, Mitts would be fine with KO and Girgs, whereas Krebs might just ignite VO. 
 

You can always tinker to make things better. The sky won’t fall if Victor is given a chance again 

The problem with Victor with Krebs is that leaves one guy to win battles along the boards and cover for them defensively. 

The problem with Quinn is Quinn makes tons of plays for that line. Olofsson is just a trigger guy. Also why wouldn't we want Quinn learning with Cozens and JJP?

In what way does olofsson make the 2nd line more potent? 

Edited January 6, 2023 by LGR4GM

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

Is it really a special hell? Or is it just a way to improve?

What if he just makes sure Samuelsson and Dahlin stay healthy?

After all, they are 16-5-2 when that’s the case, no matter how bad people say Bryson and Casey are playing.

That's an astounding record when those two anchor players are on the ice. Getting Samuelsson signed sooner rather than later was a terrific move by the GM that will enable the GM more cap flexibility in the not-too-distant future. The accumulation of wise decisions by the young GM has gotten to the point of critical mass where this team is becoming good sooner than many of us thought (including me).

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

KA has made a number of transactions that have worked out well.

Picking up Clague and Jost without sacrificing assets was pretty good too, although I suspect the analytics and scouting departments had a big hand in both.

[Doohicksie]

53 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The accumulation of wise decisions by the young GM has gotten to the point of critical mass where this team is becoming good sooner than many of us thought (including me).

I got into a discussion with a Detroit fan and mentioned that while Yzerman was a wizard in TB, things aren't working out so well in Detroit, at least not yet.  The response was, "Well at least we're not Buffalo."  He thought the Wings were actually ahead of the Sabres still.  Heh.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Doohickie

[Eleven]

4 minutes ago, JohninMinn. said:

3-0 Vegas 1st period. The Captain is dominating. Goal,assist.

Great.  How's Casey doing?

 

[JohnC]

10 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I got into a discussion with a Detroit fan and mentioned that while Yzerman was a wizard in TB, things aren't working out so well in Detroit, at least not yet.  The response was, "Well at least we're not Buffalo."  He thought the Wings were actually ahead of the Sabres still.  Heh.

Don't get fooled by the fact that the Sabres have dominated Detroit when they have played this season. Sometimes due to matchups comparable or even more dominate teams don't match up well. This season Detroit has earned 39 points in 36 games while Buffalo has earned 40 points in 36 games. In my mind both teams are in the same strata. I do agree with you that I would rather have our roster than their roster. 

I wouldn't put Yzerman in the terrestrial wizard camp. I have listened to him on a couple of occasions talking about the rebuilding process. He knows what he is doing. He may have a sour personality but he is a good GM.

10 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Picking up Clague and Jost without sacrificing assets was pretty good too, although I suspect the analytics and scouting departments had a big hand in both.

These are little deals that make you a little better. Inching your way forward is better than sliding back in a highly competitive league.

[bob_sauve28]

13 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 

In what way does olofsson make the 2nd line more potent? 

He scores goals. VO still has more points than Quinn even though he has been demoted a long time ago. Win now? 

13 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Eww why?

To win. Winning is important NOW, right? 

[K-9]

16 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

He scores goals. VO still has more points than Quinn even though he has been demoted a long time ago. Win now? 

To win. Winning is important NOW, right? 

Nearly half of his goals are on the PP or empty netters so I have to question his goal scoring impact outside of that. Other than having a major league shot, nothing else about his game stands out. Quinn is just a better hockey player in every aspect of the game. 

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

Don't get fooled by the fact that the Sabres have dominated Detroit when they have played this season.

The part of the exchange I didn't write is where he talked about how much better Detroit is doing than Buffalo.  Yes I know they're close in the standinngs.  On the other hand, they simply aren't playing well right now.

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Doohickie said:

The part of the exchange I didn't write is where he talked about how much better Detroit is doing than Buffalo.  Yes I know they're close in the standinngs.  On the other hand, they simply aren't playing well right now.

I don't consider Detroit better than Buffalo. But I do consider them to be in the same strata. It will be interesting to track each team in their rebuilding process. My sense is that Yzerman is more willing than KA to go outside the system to round out their team. Overall, I'm more than pleased with how KA has overseen the Sabre operation. 

[dudacek]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

I don't consider Detroit better than Buffalo. But I do consider them to be in the same strata. It will be interesting to track each team in their rebuilding process. My sense is that Yzerman is more willing than KA to go outside the system to round out their team. Overall, I'm more than pleased with how KA has overseen the Sabre operation. 

If you're talking about comparing the emerging young corps, I don't think there's much of a comparison. Buffalo has better pieces and more of them:

• Thompson >> Larkin
• Tuch > Bertuzzi (who is older and a pending UFA)
• Cozens >> Veleno
• Mittelstadt ~ Rasmussen
• Quinn <? Raymond
• Peterka ~ Berggren
• Krebs ~ Zadina
• Savoie ~ Kasper
• Östlund
• Kulich
• Dahlin >? Seider
• Power > Eidvisson
• Samuelsson
• Jokharju < Hronek
• Johnson ~ Wallinder
• UPL ? Nedjelkovic
• Levi ? Cossa

I mean you can quibble with some of my off-the-cuff rankings, and who knows how youngsters develop, but it's pretty clear that Buffalo is ahead in terms of emerging talent.

Edited January 7, 2023 by dudacek

[Refuting]

On 1/4/2023 at 11:22 AM, Captain Caveman said:

 

 

Lol