Sabres Best player?

[Gatorman0519]

I can't decide lol 

[Doohicksie]

5 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Ironically Anthony on the Expected Buffalo mentioned before the Season someone in the organization told Him that there is/was a belief that Casey Mittlestadt was the player with the most raw talent on the team. 

Talent without vision.  We can see what that's worth.

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Marty said last night that Tuch still has another level.

Hard to believe because I was just ruminating that Tuch was barely on the VGK roster but here he's solid first line.  And he has more???

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

I have seen a lot of Mekar.  To me he is not much different than Karlsson....he is great offensively and skating, but he is actually pretty bad in his own end.  Out of position a lot

Exhibit One

 

[mjd1001]

5 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Exhibit One

 

I didn't even pay attention to him there. Giveaway on the board by him that 'looks' like he didn't put much effort in.

The play I was talking about was on Tage's goal. He was around the puck 2 times but didn't really engage anyone. Before Mitts makes the pass to Tage, Makar comes to the board and just kinda waves his stick at Mitts, doesn't engage him in any way and simply allows him to make the pass.

 

[Thorner]

Good question. I like the poll options because there are only 2 true options. It’s close, can’t really go wrong with either. Having said that:

Dahlin.

Plays more. 

Slightly more exceptional for a D than Tage is for a F.

When talking MVP, for me there’s a bit more distance 

If Tage takes a game off I think we have the F to compensate.

If Dahlin takes a game off I think we are in trouble 

[Eleven]

It's Dahlin.

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I am leaning Dahlin...because if I can't decide who is 'best' i try to think who is more valuable as the tie-breaker.

  Now I may be wrong this way, but this is how I think of it....if the Sabres were starting a 7 game playoff series and ONE of the two was going to miss the entire series, who would I want?  Both would be a huge loss, but I think the Sabres could get by a bit better with Dahlin and no Tage, but if Dahlin were not there for a playoff series they would be in a bit more trouble.

Agree 

[kas23]

Another way of putting this question, because I’m Mr Positive, which injury would be more hurtful to the Sabres, Tage or Dahlin? I’m gonna go with Tage. 

[TheAud]

5 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

One that comes to mind is Lawson Crouse in Arizona:

-11th overall pick but many had him going even higher when he was drafted

-His first 5 seasons, a lot of healthy scratches. 281 games played. 36 total goals (about 10 goals per 82).  When he wasn't scratched was getting very low ice time. Widely considered a bust.  Averaged only about 13 minutes of ice time per game played.

-In season 6 (last year, I think he turned 24) the light went on. Over the past 2 seasons now...33 goals in 91 games (about 30 per 82 games). Hes now on the PP and getting top line ice time (17-19 minutes usually). An Even +/- player on a minus team. Not only does he play the PP, he is a top penalty killer and in the short list of forwards the team trusts in overtime.

Maybe Sean Couturier:

-8th overall pick, just like Mitts. Played his first full season at age 19.

-In his first 6 years, never scored over the teens in goals, was under 40 points every year.

-wasn't until his 7th year, at age 25, over 400 career games played, when he crossed 30 goals and 70 points.  Mitts has only played 225 games so far, is 24 years old. Mitts career numbers per 60 are slightly better than Couturier's were through is first 6 seasons.

Crouse is 6'4 220lbs. Couturier 6'3 211 lbs. Casey is 6'1, 199 lbs. I think big guys often take longer to develop. (See: Thompson, Tage). That may or may not be the case but if so, certainly doesn't apply to the very average sized Mittelstadt. 

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Ironically Anthony on the Expected Buffalo mentioned before the Season someone in the organization told Him that there is/was a belief that Casey Mittlestadt was the player with the most raw talent on the team. 

BREAKING NEWS: 

“Someone, 43, has been relieved of his duties. The Sabres wish him success in his future endeavours.”

5 hours ago, Weave said:

How Fing crazy is it that we have a player that may very well win the Norris and wouldn’t be a near unanimous choice for team MVP?

How Fing crazy is it that we have a player that is in spitting distance of winning the goal scoring title and wouldn’t be a near unanimous choice for team MVP.

How crazy is it that we have both and are still chewing on our finger nails over whether we might or might not end the season in the playoffs?

Would people rather Tage win the Rocket, or the Art Ross? Don’t say both 

[Thorner]

5 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

Power will be better than both in a few years! And that’s a great thing! 

“Darth Vader will be more powerful than EITHER OF US!”

[mjd1001]

4 minutes ago, kas23 said:

Another way of putting this question, because I’m Mr Positive, which injury would be more hurtful to the Sabres, Tage or Dahlin? I’m gonna go with Tage. 

That is the exact way I said I viewed the tie-breaker on this, but I picked the opposite, Dahlin.  The Sabres have other players that can score.  Tage would be missed, but missing Dahlin, you would be creating a massive, 23-26 minute per game hole of moving the puck out of your own end, not making mistakes back there, and being the one who often starts the rush or makes pinpoint passes that allows the forwards (including Tage) to score.

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Samuelsson.  

When DG needed someone to carry the team with Power out he played Mule 31 minutes.  

Recent reports I seen have stated that he is a future Captain.  

Marty said last night that Tuch still has another level.

Peca thinks JJP maybe the most talented forward in the organization. 

You don’t even actually believe this, GA. If you had to trade Dahlin or Samuelsson, return being equal, you are trading Samuelsson. 

[Thorner]

2 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I don't watch every Colorado game, but through some regular season games and a lot of post season, I have seen a lot of Mekar.  To me he is not much different than Karlsson....he is great offensively and skating, but he is actually pretty bad in his own end.  Out of position a lot and he seems to give more effort in the offensive end than his own end.  One of the Sabres goals last night, he playing more like a winger than a D-man---on the boards making a stick check on one of the Sabres players, then he chased toward the blue line..and ended up trailing the goal scorer from behind.

A lot of other people say he is good in his own end and that his positioning is actually good.  I haven't seen that, to me his positioning is bad but he makes up for a lot of it with his speed and acceleration.  But again, I have probably seen him play 20 games, not every one he plays.

And Makar got the Smythe. With Dahlin set to log the minutes he would in any long run, he’d be my betting favourite for that trophy re: Sabres

If one ever won the league MVP it’d be Thompson cause it’s largely a points award / occasionally goals award, kinda like the NFL mvp is earmarked for QBs while guys like Parsons or Donald are probably the league’s most valuable guys imo

[GASabresIUFAN]

51 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Hard to believe because I was just ruminating that Tuch was barely on the VGK roster but here he's solid first line.  And he has more???

Tuch's best year with LV was 20g 32a for 52 pts in 74 games.  In other words .27g/gp and .70p/gp

Last season in Buffalo he scored 12g 26a for 38 pts in 50 games or .24g/gp and .76 p/gp.  So basically in line with his best in LV

This season he has 15g 16a for 31 pts in 30 games.  .5 g/gp and 1.03 p/gp.  (He's also +7).  Kind of scary that Marty thinks he still has another level.  My guess is he thinks he has the skills to use his size more like Tage.  He also has 3 more years at just 4.75 per season.  Talk about bargain deals.

Now compare to our from Jack.  Jack has 13g 16a for 29 pts in 27 games or .48g/gp & 1.07p/gp. He was probably having his best two way season (+17) before getting hurt (again).  

So basically we are getting Eichel like production from Tuch for half the price.  Both guys are 26.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

14 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You don’t even actually believe this, GA. If you had to trade Dahlin or Samuelsson, return being equal, you are trading Samuelsson. 

Yes and no. No I don't think Samuelsson is a better overall player than Dahlin, but I do think his skill set is essential to the Sabres success, he is better defensively and he makes everyone, including Dahlin, better when they play with him.  I also think he provides critical leadership and the ability to keep the locker room loose but focused.  

I'd almost argue that they are two side to the same coin.  Our 3-10 record in his absence is very telling this season and how improved the Sabres were last season when he returned from injury. In some ways he is our MVP although not our "Best" player.

Edited December 16, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Tuch's best year with LV was 20g 32a for 52 pts in 74 games.  In other words .27g/gp and .70p/gp

Last season in Buffalo he scored 12g 26a for 38 pts in 50 games or .24g/gp and .76 p/gp.  So basically in line with his best in LV

This season he has 15g 16a for 31 pts in 30 games.  .5 g/gp and 1.03 p/gp.  (He's also +7).  Kind of scary that Marty thinks he still has another level.  My guess is he thinks he has the skills to use his size more like Tage.  He also has 3 more years at just 4.75 per season.  Talk about bargain deals.

Now compare to our from Jack.  Jack has 13g 16a for 29 pts in 27 games or .48g/gp & 1.07p/gp. He was probably having his best two way season (+17) before getting hurt (again).  

So basically we are getting Eichel like production from Tuch for half the price.  Both guys are 26.  

Does this really have to be another Eichel thing? I don’t think Tuch would have the points he does if he wasn’t playing with the guy 3rd in league scoring. Regardless, let’s for sake of argument call offensive production this year a “wash”. Cause at this point, statistically it is. I’m glad you acknowledged how good Eichel has been defensively this year because we are only getting Eichel like production from Tuch if you are talking offensive output specifically, and aren’t using production as analogous to “impact”, as, when accounting for the entire game, their defensive impacts aren’t close. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Thorny

[kas23]

2 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

That is the exact way I said I viewed the tie-breaker on this, but I picked the opposite, Dahlin.  The Sabres have other players that can score.  Tage would be missed, but missing Dahlin, you would be creating a massive, 23-26 minute per game hole of moving the puck out of your own end, not making mistakes back there, and being the one who often starts the rush or makes pinpoint passes that allows the forwards (including Tage) to score.

We definitely have other PPG forwards than Tage, I just see Tage as the glue and the player who demands the opposing teams shutdown line. I’m not sure the kids line could absorb the heat of being the top line. My guess is that Cozens would be shifted between Tuch and Skinner. It may work. Krebs would probably center Quinn and JJ. I hate thinking about it. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, Thorny said:

Does this really have to be another Eichel thing? I don’t think Tuch would have the points he does if he wasn’t playing with the guy 3rd in league scoring. Regardless, let’s for sake of argument call offensive production this year a “wash”. I’m glad you acknowledged how good Eichel has been defensively this year because we are only getting Eichel like production from Tuch if you are taking offensive output specifically, and aren’t using production as analogous to “impact”, as, when accounting for the entire game, their defensive impacts aren’t close. 

I agree Jack is more valuable to LV.  However best bang for the buck? Tuch.  Next year when Mule's contract kicks in we'll have Tuch and Samuelsson for $9 mill.  Would you trade both straight up for Jack?  I wouldn't.

 

[Refuting]

It's Thompson easily 

[Thorner]

9 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yes and no. No I don't think Samuelsson is a better overall player than Dahlin, but I do think his skill set is essential to the Sabres success, he is better defensively and he makes everyone, including Dahlin, better when they play with him.  I also think he provides critical leadership and the ability to keep the locker room loose but focused.  

I'd almost argue that they are two side to the same coin.  Our 3-10 record in his absence is very telling this season and how improved the Sabres were last season when he returned from injury. In some ways he is our MVP although not our "Best" player.

Agree with your first paragraph. 

We were poor without Samuelsson, that’s true, but not only was the sample size small, the logic doesn’t exactly suggest we’d be any better without Dahlin, considering his impacts relative to Sammy, we’d probably be worse. We just aren’t using that as an argument for Dahlin right now cause he has stayed healthy. That’s circumstantial, no? 

Id be much more inclined to call into question Samuelsson’s durability going forward, as it pertains to value, before questioning if the Sabres wouldn’t suffer greatly w/o Rasmus for some random reason. 

We shouldn’t forget how much of a plus Dahlin’s durability adds to his side of the ledger, re: value 

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I agree Jack is more valuable to LV.  However best bang for the buck? Tuch.  Next year when Mule's contract kicks in we'll have Tuch and Samuelsson for $9 mill.  Would you trade both straight up for Jack?  I wouldn't.

 

Not sure man there’s a couple different things being added together here haha. 

- - - 

im happy with the team 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Agree with your first paragraph. 

We were poor without Samuelsson, that’s true, but not only was the sample size small, the logic doesn’t exactly suggest we’d be any better without Dahlin, considering his impacts relative to Sammy, we’d pribabky be worse. We just aren’t using that as an argument for Dahlin right now cause he has stayed healthy. That’s circumstantial, no? 

Id be much more inclined to call into question Samuelsson’s durability going forward, as it pertains to value, before questioning if the Sabres wouldn’t suffer greatly w/o Rasmus for some random reason. 

We shouldn’t forget how much of a plus Dahlin’s durability adds to his side of the ledger, re: value 

It's why I say they are two sides of the same coin.  Either guy is excellent without the other, but together they take each other to another level.  Dahlin trusts Samuelsson to cover his back if he freelances some to create offense.  Samuelsson trust Dahlin to move the puck quickly out of the zone and also trust's Dahlin to cover him if he pinches.  They really are in many ways the perfect pairing.  

 

[Thorner]

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It's why I say they are two sides of the same coin.  Either guy is excellent without the other, but together they take each other to another level.  Dahlin trusts Samuelsson to cover his back if he freelances some to create offense.  Samuelsson trust Dahlin to move the puck quickly out of the zone and also trust's Dahlin to cover him if he pinches.  They really are in many ways the perfect pairing.  

 

I agree with everything you are saying tbh. It’s just the coin analogy that doesn’t work for me, because it implies they are equal in value and.. I mean Dahlin is Dahlin. 

Samuelsson is a great, and valuable, piece. He makes Dahlin better.

Still not Dahlin. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

By the way, it was interesting to see what many of us wrote when Mattias signed his ELC.