Is Kevyn Adams doing anything?

[Mustache of God]

1 hour ago, thewookie1 said:

 

 

Botterill and Murray really weren't good at using their scouts were they?

Maybe that's why Jerry Forton was in tears after the last draft.

[Mustache of God]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

And this one as well 

 

Trading Thompson for a 5th would have really been a nice feather in that O'Reilly trade.

St Louis gets ROR and a cup

Buffalo ends up with a 5th round pick after what's his face quit, Sobotka played himself out of the league, the 1st round pick of Ryan Johnson walked and Sabres fans got to watch Tage Thopmson rise on another team. Yikes! 

Which GM would have made that trade? Part of me wants to say "no way Bottreril does that, so it has to be Adams", but mabye Jbots called another audible? Yeesh.

[WhenWillItEnd66]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

I was more specific to Portillo - Not having as great of a year this year, so his value could drop

and Johnson. Definitely could use him as we need more defensive help as in prospect.

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, NJhopelessSabresfan66 said:

I was more specific to Portillo - Not having as great of a year this year, so his value could drop

and Johnson. Definitely could use him as we need more defensive help as in prospect.

If Johnson is looking for the best situation for him after his college career is over, Buffalo should be at the top of his list of considerations. The Sabres need more defensemen, and within our current system there is a dearth of prospects who are ready to move up to the NHL. 

[inkman]

15 minutes ago, NJhopelessSabresfan66 said:

I was more specific to Portillo - Not having as great of a year this year, so his value could drop

and Johnson. Definitely could use him as we need more defensive help as in prospect.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

6 minutes ago, inkman said:

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Holy-maybe-it's-time-to-stop-defending-an-indefensibly-terrible-GM, Batman!

LOL, maybe it's time to actually look at what he did well and what he didn't.  The only difference between me and most others on Jbot is I'm willing to admit what he did well and that I thought he deserved a 4th year.  That makes me a rare voice on a board where group think is encouraged.  However, I have been and continue to be highly critical of JBot's time here.  I'm the one who started the multiple Jbot do something already thread.  I'm was the first person on this board who thought the RK hire was terrible the day it happened.  I also was very vocal about the lousy return for Kane, the stupid trade of Scandella out and Frolik in.  That said, I thought he did a much better job of drafting then his predecessor and when you look at our roster you see that he did acquire a great deal of talent that is central to our team including Skinner, Thompson, Jokiharju, Dahlin, Cozens, and Samuelsson and there are still others in the system that could make an impact like Johnson, Rousek, Weissbach, Portillo, etc....  He also made Rochester competitive year in and year out and hired DG.

Now as to these two stupid tweets.  Jbot drafted Mittelstadt at 7 who most pre-draft rankings had around 6 and Necas was rated around 11. Sorry, in hindsight, it may not work out, but not exactly a reach.  Lets not forget that Casey is on pace to put up 45-50 pts this season.  So lets look back 6 years and ask the scouts, why didn't they know that Oettinger and Robertson were actually the top players in the draft.  Oh Yeah, lets ask the next 4 teams why they didn't take Necas, because he fell to 12.  No lets just write a stupid tweet 6 years later.  Funny we aren't hearing anything about the Cozens pick. How do we know that Jbot didn't over rule the scouts on that pick.  What about Samuelsson, he wasn't exactly the favorite choice then.  One well known poster here repeated said that Mule wasn't anything and we'd be lucky if he ended up being a 3rd pairing guy.  Oops. 

As to Thompson, so let me see if I understand this correctly.  A team, which can't remember if it was 2 or 3 years ago claims they had been offered Thompson for a 5th and turned it down.  Considering he has 18 goals in his first 145 NHL games, it is really a shock that his market value was less than a 5th rd pick then?  So Jbot is terrible because he acquired Thompson or because Thompson was slow to develop and he discussed trading him at one point but didn't?  

However, thank you for attacking me for having the guts to have a differing opinion.  

Edited December 19, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Doohicksie]

6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'm was the first person on this board who thought the RK hire was terrible the day it happened. 

I was never a fan.  He sounded too much like a snake oil salesman to me.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, Doohickie said:

I was never a fan.  He sounded too much like a snake oil salesman to me.

I wrote then that we need a teacher and X & O guy and not a motivational speaker.  I said its was like hiring Ted Nolan over again.

This is what I wrote then

Quote

 

I hate to say this but he sounds like Ted Nolan.  Motivator but not an X and O guy.  This teams real structure and real coach'em up coaching.  Motivation is not enough.  Who is going to provide the structure?  Who is going to make sure that Risto isn't overplayed and who is going to teach him how to pass to facilitate the breakout?  Not Krueger.

On second thought, my initial reaction of Meh! was wrong. This is a bad hire.

 

 

[Dreams Burn Down]

3 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I was never a fan.  He sounded too much like a snake oil salesman to me.

At the Sabrefest prior to RK's debut, he, Jbot, and others were on the dais talking and, even at the time, I felt like I was at the EC Fair watching a frying pan or Ginsu knife expo.  I was thinking, I'm here and I'm obviously a fan, so why are you all trying so hard to sell me with your words?  It reeked of BS and as that season played out, I realized why.

[nfreeman]

8 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

LOL, maybe it's time to actually look at what he did well and what he didn't.  The only difference between me and most others on Jbot is I'm willing to admit what he did well and that I thought he deserved a 4th year.  That makes me a rare voice on a board where group think is encouraged.  However, I have been and continue to be highly critical of JBot's time here.  I'm the one who started the multiple Jbot do something already thread.  I'm was the first person on this board who thought the RK hire was terrible the day it happened.  I also was very vocal about the lousy return for Kane, the stupid trade of Scandella out and Frolik in.  That said, I thought he did a much better job of drafting then his predecessor and when you look at our roster you see that he did acquire a great deal of talent that is central to our team including Skinner, Thompson, Jokiharju, Dahlin, Cozens, and Samuelsson and there are still others in the system that could make an impact like Johnson, Rousek, Weissbach, Portillo, etc....  He also made Rochester competitive year in and year out and made some other solid moves.  

Now as to these two stupid tweets.  Jbot drafted Mittelstadt at 7 who most pre-draft rankings had around 6 and Necas was rated around 11. Sorry, in hindsight, it may not work out, but not exactly a reach.  Lets not forget that Casey is on pace to put up 45-50 pts this season.  So lets look back 6 years and ask the scouts, why didn't they know that Oettinger and Robertson were actually the top players in the draft.  Oh Yeah, lets ask the next 4 teams why they didn't take Necas, because he fell to 12.  No lets just write a stupid tweet 6 years later.  Funny we aren't hearing anything about the Cozens pick. How do we know that Jbot didn't over rule the scouts on that pick.  What about Samuelsson, he wasn't exactly the favorite choice then.  One well known poster here repeated said that Mule wasn't anything and we'd be lucky if he ended up being a 3rd pairing guy.  Oops. 

As to Thompson, so let me see if I understand this correctly.  A team, which can't remember if it was 2 or 3 years ago claims they had been offered Thompson for a 5th and turned it down.  Considering he has 18 goals in his first 145 NHL games, it is really a shock that his market value was less than a 5th rd pick then?  So Jbot is terrible because he acquired Thompson or because Thompson was slow to develop and he discussed trading him at one point but didn't?  

However, thank you for attacking me for having the guts to have a differing opinion.  

The bolded statements are all BS.

JB does not get credit for drafting Dahlin.  Just the opposite -- he was trying to ice a competitive team that year and they ended up DFL, won the lottery and drafted the consensus #1 prospect. 

As for Mitts vs Necas -- yes, hindsight matters and Mitts wasn't a reach, but that's not the point.  The GM gets paid millions to get these decisions right and to ice a winning team.  The Mitts selection at this point looks like a major mistake, and learning that JB overruled his scouting staff to make it is just the cherry on the poop sundae.

Of course not every decision JB made was a complete train wreck.  But the sum total of his decisions was exactly that.  As I've said previously, an executive board of Sabrespacers would've done a much better job of running the Sabres than JB did.

What grade would you give to JB for his tenure here?

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Your argument is based on a parallel universe where Torts is in Buffalo and we're better than the highest scoring team in the NHL under Granato. That's a strawman but maybe not in the literal sense. 

Highest scoring and yet out of the playoffs and not too far from the bottom. 18 points behind division leading Boston. 12 points behind the Leafs. It's only all about scoring goals in videogames. 

(I cut the Philly stuff cause I'm not really interested in talking about them. Totally different team and set of circumstances with a bungled upper management circle. All I will say is Torts is winning fans over from what I've heard. Fletcher is the guy they all want gone)

[LGR4GM]

15 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Highest scoring and yet out of the playoffs and not too far from the bottom. 18 points behind division leading Boston. 12 points behind the Leafs. It's only all about scoring goals in videogames. 

(I cut the Philly stuff cause I'm not really interested in talking about them. Totally different team and set of circumstances with a bungled upper management circle. All I will say is Torts is winning fans over from what I've heard. Fletcher is the guy they all want gone)

We're further away from the bottom than Philly is under Torts. We also are outscoring philly by 47 which would not be happening with Torts as our coach. The Sabres are 10 pts away from the bottom of the conference and 5 from a playoff spot. The vaunted Flyers under Torts are 5pts from the bottom of the conference and 10 from the playoffs. So again, how is philly better in any way? How is the great John Tortarella coaching the Flyers to be better? They score less goals and have 1 fewer goal against than Buffalo. I am supposed to sign up for having the same goals against while having 47 fewer goals scored just so torts can teach guys how to what? 

Torts wouldn't be a good coach in Buffalo and he is certainly not as good as Granato at this stage. The only reason you keep trying to say we can't compare them is because there is nothing to show that Philly plays hockey in a way better than Buffalo. Philly under Torts has scored 39% fewer goals this year while giving up the same amount of goals as Buffalo. Good thing they play a hard nosed style, I guess.

What evidence, or really anything, can you provide that would lend ANY support to the argument that if Torts was Buffalo's coach they would be better than they are under Granato? 

To the bolded. No it is literally about scoring more goals than your opponents in the NHL. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by LGR4GM

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

The bolded statements are all BS.

JB does not get credit for drafting Dahlin.  Just the opposite -- he was trying to ice a competitive team that year and they ended up DFL, won the lottery and drafted the consensus #1 prospect. 

As for Mitts vs Necas -- yes, hindsight matters and Mitts wasn't a reach, but that's not the point.  The GM gets paid millions to get these decisions right and to ice a winning team.  The Mitts selection at this point looks like a major mistake, and learning that JB overruled his scouting staff to make it is just the cherry on the poop sundae.

Of course not every decision JB made was a complete train wreck.  But the sum total of his decisions was exactly that.  As I've said previously, an executive board of Sabrespacers would've done a much better job of running the Sabres than JB did.

What grade would you give to JB for his tenure here?

That is the only point.  Had Jbot over-ruled them to take Shane Bowers you may have an argument.  However he didn't.  He probably took Mitts because of his knowledge of USA and Canadian kids playing in the NCAA.  Considering how he dominated his age group at the U18 prior to the draft, this looked like a very reasonable pick and still does.  You need to spend some time and look how most 8th overall picks do in the NHL historically.  Most that make it are 2nd and 3rd line players which is what Mitts is.  DG recently admitted that part of that lines struggles stem from them getting paired with our 3rd pairing D and worse.  Does Mitts need to be better?  Absolutely!  Call me back at the end of the season and let's see where he is.  It's like he drafted Nylander.   Also he does get credit for drafting Dahlin, because he drafted him.  Does KA get credit for taking Power?  Of course he does. 

I think if you go back to Jbot's first year, he made a ton of changes to get rid of TM's mess and try to create cap space.  There was much discussion back then about a mini-tank.  

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, grinreaper said:

Simply put, your plan would turn a stable full of race horses into plow horses. If the Sabres used their assets in trades and free agency they could end up in affect swapping them for a bunch of players that they could ice in order to make the playoffs. Maybe if Kevyn Adams left and they changed GM's they could abandon their plan to develop a team capable of winning a Cup or more and lower their goals to just making the playoffs as the gold standard. When that is accomplished maybe we could petition the NHL to make the amount of hits replace goals as the criteria for choosing who wins a game. Just think, all the Sabres would have to do is keep giving up the puck to their opponent so they could legally rack up the hits. 

Discounting my sarcasm above, think about what you are posting. You find fault with the Sabre's youth movement and praise what Tortorella is doing in Philadelphia but lament the fact that his record is so poor because he doesn't have enough "kids". Those are tough conflicting premises to argue against.

No. NO. NO and a big fat NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. 

The counter arguments to what I've been saying always go to these nonsensical extremes like "plow horses". Nowhere have I advocated a Murray style trade off of all our prospects and resources for some old tired vets. It's about plugging holes and balancing the roster. Veteran contracts end and come off at the same time you need money for rising stars. You, and others arguing the same logic, always seem to ignore how low our payroll is. You put your thumb up for a has been like Okposo who brings very little right now but scoff at adding a veteran defenseman to a team relying on cast offs, KHL losers and  AHL lifers. Adams botched defensive depth and goaltending. You have to keep goals out of your net as well as scoring them. 

There simply aren't enough "race horse" defensive prospects in the system so moving a few - A FEW - forward prospects (or later picks) to rectify that would make this team better sooner. 

[Hank]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

We're further away from the bottom than Philly is under Torts. We also are outscoring philly by 47 which would not be happening with Torts as our coach. The Sabres are 10 pts away from the bottom of the league and 5 from a playoff spot. 

Torts wouldn't be a good coach in Buffalo and he is certainly not as good as Granato at this stage. 

Personally, I like Torts. Not for the Sabres of course, as I think Granato is a better fit, but if Nashville was to make a coaching change and could pick between between the two I think Torts would be a better fit for that roster. Absolutely love Granato in Buffalo though and think he's doing a great job with the young roster. 

[LGR4GM]

13 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

So your argument is based on the two teams having exactly the same amount of talent and skill I guess. 

Talk about a strawman argument.

Philly has virtually no talent whatsoever yet Torts has them playing hard nosed hockey and most games are very close. They are as they say, hard to play against, when they probably should be dead last in the league but whatever, I'm sure in your videogame simulation Torts teams lose. Probably not enough pixels. 

 

9 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Only 3 teams in the entire league have a worse goal differential. They have lost 12 games this season by more than 1 goal. They have 7 ot/so losses and if Buffalo had that, you'd be telling us how Granato can't close out games. The flyers have 77 goals which puts them 30th in the league in goals scored. They sit 27th in the league overall. 

I'd say Carter Hart is the most likely reason they aren't worse. I'm not saying torts is a bad coach but he's not elevating anything. Granato helped turn Tage Thompson into the 2nd highest scoring player in the league and Dahlin into the 2nd highest scoring defenseman. Torts might have them playing "hard nose" hockey but that's not winning them much. 

We do agree on one thing, Philly isn't very talented but Torts isn't doing much for the talent there is. 

Your argument is based on a parallel universe where Torts is in Buffalo and we're better than the highest scoring team in the NHL under Granato. That's a strawman but maybe not in the literal sense. 

The Flyers aren't hard to play against when teams are beating their doors off by 2-4 goals. 

You say they should be dead last without Torts... they are the3rd worst in the league with the 4th worst goal differential and the 3rd worst goals for. Great, Torts and his mighty skill have managed to take the Flyers from worst to 3rd worst! Huzzah! 

[PerreaultForever]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

We're further away from the bottom than Philly is under Torts. We also are outscoring philly by 47 which would not be happening with Torts as our coach. The Sabres are 10 pts away from the bottom of the league and 5 from a playoff spot. 

Torts wouldn't be a good coach in Buffalo and he is certainly not as good as Granato at this stage. 

It was universally agreed that Philly was going to be a dead last or near dead last team after last year. They have botched previous drafts and squandered picks and have a depleted prospect cupboard. Nobody thought they would win at all this year. Philly fans I know were like "damn we're going to be worse than Buffalo". They were split on the hiring of Tortorella. Now, talking to them, they want Torts in charge of player movement and most think he's making a huge difference, they just fear he will still be hampered by Fletcher. 

It's a ridiculous and facile argument to say "Buffalo's better than Philly so Granato's better than Torts. " Just plain dumb non logic. The teams need to be compared to themselves, not each other. 

[LGR4GM]

19 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

There simply aren't enough "race horse" defensive prospects in the system so moving a few - A FEW - forward prospects (or later picks) to rectify that would make this team better sooner. 

Now here we agree. Adams is going to have to use more draft assets on defense and also look at the forward prospects/assets and decide who is getting traded to bolster the defense. There simply isn't enough talent in the pipeline to proceed solely through draft and develop. 

12 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

It was universally agreed that Philly was going to be a dead last or near dead last team after last year. They have botched previous drafts and squandered picks and have a depleted prospect cupboard. Nobody thought they would win at all this year. Philly fans I know were like "damn we're going to be worse than Buffalo". They were split on the hiring of Tortorella. Now, talking to them, they want Torts in charge of player movement and most think he's making a huge difference, they just fear he will still be hampered by Fletcher. 

It's a ridiculous and facile argument to say "Buffalo's better than Philly so Granato's better than Torts. " Just plain dumb non logic. The teams need to be compared to themselves, not each other. 

Granato is a better coach than Torts. Tage Thompson is my argument. I rest my case. 

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Now here we agree. Adams is going to have to use more draft assets on defense and also look at the forward prospects/assets and decide who is getting traded to bolster the defense. There simply isn't enough talent in the pipeline to proceed solely through draft and develop. 

Granato is a better coach than Torts. Tage Thompson is my argument. I rest my case. 

Agree that it would be good to spend more draft capital on D.

Not sure that the prospects/ extra F's will be moved to bolster the D.  They have the top 3 slots nailed long term & there are prospects that are ~3 years out.  Really expect we'll see a couple more Lyubushkin pickups to round out the bottom 3 slots & 7&8.  Would leave them with Jokiharju, new guy, & Lyubushkin as the bottom 3 (in no particular order) and other new guy & Bryson as the 7 & 8.

Expect it would take a lot of prospect capital to fill those 2 slots; probably more than Adams wants to part with.  If he can find a deal or 2 to do so, would be great w/ it.  Just not expecting it.

[tom webster]

22 hours ago, Taro T said:

He has seemed to play well.  Wonder if he really is playing well or if it's just the expectations for what you get out of a waiver pickup are so low he seems better than he is.

Not a surprise the Avs moved on from him.  1st rounders aren't often allowed to be 4th liners for the team that drafted them because even though they can be productive there they're viewed as "busts."

Not sure why Minny gave up on him.  Anybody here watch their games?

They acquired Reeves a week later at similar salary. My guess is they wanted to maintain their $3M cap space because they are going to be in cap hell for years starting next year and this may be their year to go for it.

[Pimlach]

18 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Kind of. I mean I do believe in drafting your team as the main source, but not as the only source. The holes are there and we can mostly agree on what they are. They are glaringly large. I wanted a better effort to fill them rather than to be a cap floor team waiting for next year. 

The only large hole that I see is goaltending and at least they have two prospects coming (both unsigned unfortunately).   

The help needed on Defense is more critical and they will have to trade some of their forward depth and prospects for D.   

The help they need at C might resolve itself with their own depth/prospects. 

 

18 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Maybe that's how we differ. I do not believe in building a regular season team and then trying to turn it into a playoff team. I prefer to build a playoff team from the outset and to instill that attitude and ethic right from the start so that once they make the playoffs the league better watch out.

Again I point to the Leafs as what I do NOT want to be. 

Whoa!  I do not believe in building a regular season team and a playoff team.  I think you have to make the playoffs just to find out what you are really made of and what else, if anything, you need to go all the way.   We are realistically shooting for a 7-8 seed.  If you are lucky enough to have everything the first year that you break into the playoffs, then that is great (and rare).  You have to be honest with your self-evaluation after you make the playoffs and get eliminated to get better the next year.  Once you get to playoff level you then realize another level of detail about your team.   That is where cap room comes in.  

The Leaves have not been able to fine tune out their flaws because they are up against the salary cap.  Either that or they are not honest about what they have. 

So maybe KA being frugal with his cap space right now will pay benefits later? 

[Digger]

9 hours ago, Brawndo said:

And this one as well 

 

Just catching up on "32 thoughts" audio tonight.

It doesn't shock me that the Sabres may have considered trading Tage Thompson in the past when things were not going well but I have a hard time believing that it was considered for only a 5th round pick.  Look at what we did with Nylander trading to get value back for a struggling former 1st rounder.  A 5th for Thompson would have been foolish (even if he hadn't broke out last year).  Must be more to this story.  I hate these clips that don't name names.

[Taro T]

16 minutes ago, Digger said:

Just catching up on "32 thoughts" audio tonight.

It doesn't shock me that the Sabres may have considered trading Tage Thompson in the past when things were not going well but I have a hard time believing that it was considered for only a 5th round pick.  Look at what we did with Nylander trading to get value back for a struggling former 1st rounder.  A 5th for Thompson would have been foolish (even if he hadn't broke out last year).  Must be more to this story.  I hate these clips that don't name names.

Well, they DID get a 4th for Scandella and he was waaaay better than Thompson was in the Botterill era, so ...

😉

Facetious, but that gets back to a point made in the discussion w/ Perreault about whether another more active GM would've been better ST & LT than Adams.  A more active GM who wasn't giving ALL the prospects a full length of rope could EASILY have wanted to bail on Tage.  And it would've set the current team back tremendously.

Really believe Adams deserves credit for not trying to convert ANY of the prospects into a handful of magic beans.

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, Digger said:

Just catching up on "32 thoughts" audio tonight.

It doesn't shock me that the Sabres may have considered trading Tage Thompson in the past when things were not going well but I have a hard time believing that it was considered for only a 5th round pick.  Look at what we did with Nylander trading to get value back for a struggling former 1st rounder.  A 5th for Thompson would have been foolish (even if he hadn't broke out last year).  Must be more to this story.  I hate these clips that don't name names.

This is the same GM that traded the Top Pick in the Sixth Round in 2018 for Toronto’s 2019 Sixth Rounder, which was almost guaranteed to be lower, so anything is possible. 
 

And Holmberg the player taken by Toronto is turning out to be a very good bottom six player for them