Is Kevyn Adams doing anything?

[Refuting]

7 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

JBot also brought Granato to Buffalo. One could argue Adams promoting him was a safe move and/or a fail in hiring an experienced NHL coach at the time. 

I'm not upset at all about how Granatos been coaching but when he signed his extension, I thought we could have done better. 

[PerreaultForever]

Just now, Refuting said:

I'm not upset at all about how Granatos been coaching but when he signed his extension, I thought we could have done better. 

I questioned the extension as well. I'm not convinced Granato deserved it, but we shall see, There's no question he's better than Kreuger, but that bar is very very low. 

[Refuting]

Just now, PerreaultForever said:

I questioned the extension as well. I'm not convinced Granato deserved it, but we shall see, There's no question he's better than Kreuger, but that bar is very very low. 

I think you ride out the extension at this point unless the team implodes 

I was never a fan of firing coaches after 1 or 2 years. How does that build team chemistry/philosophy/identity? 

I mean, was Bylsma really THAT bad? We were in Eichels 2nd year with a drunk as our starting goalie. How was that enough time to evaluate a coach? 

Ralph absolutely had to go though that was blatantly obvious 

[PerreaultForever]

Back to the theme of is Kevyn doing enough, I did find this interesting in light of my argument that we need a player(s) who can take on guys like Maroon when they run at our goalies, from tonight:

https://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/n266296

Undrafted remember. Now if Kev found us players like that for depth I might be more impressed. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by PerreaultForever

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I haven't said anything different. I'm not sure how much is Granato and how much is those players maturing but it doesn't really matter to me, they are the new core of this team - but they were brought here by JBot so you can't give Adams credit for that. 

Because he was never on the trading block. The team had in no way given up on him yet. 

Adams had not given up on Thompson.  A majority of Sabre fans had given up on him.  Why would the mythical other GM NOT have given up on him?

Remember, even Thompson didn't see himself as an NHL center.  That was ENTIRELY Granato.  So, why wouldn't the new (non Adams) GM have not sent him (or Quinn or Peterka or ...) packing for what they needed then?

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

JBot also brought Granato to Buffalo. One could argue Adams promoting him was a safe move and/or a fail in hiring an experienced NHL coach at the time. 

Absolutely one could argue that.  And they could argue that he lucked into Thompson & Dahlin & Cozens & Peterka & Quinn panning out.  Just like it was argued early in his NHL & Sabres career that Hasek lucked into the puck ALWAYS hitting him.

At some point luck ain't luck.  It's actually skill.

[Marvin]

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

Absolutely one could argue that.  And they could argue that he lucked into Thompson & Dahlin & Cozens & Peterka & Quinn panning out.  Just like it was argued early in his NHL & Sabres career that Hasek lucked into the puck ALWAYS hitting him.

At some point luck ain't luck.  It's actually skill.

"How many coincidences add up to a fact?"  -- from an episode of _The Twilight Zone_

[LGR4GM]

7 hours ago, Refuting said:

*effect

That was a great trade but hardly proven. We took Rosen who remind me what has he done in the NHL? 

Hard to say what Rosen will be. He's probably 2 years away from the NHL and has a lot to improve on. 

Maybe one of the Rochester contingent can provide an update on how he looks. 

[grinreaper]

9 hours ago, Refuting said:

*effect

That was a great trade but hardly proven. We took Rosen who remind me what has he done in the NHL? 

Wrong. 

Not even punctuation would help that random collection of words. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

So we have 12 pages of a discussion on whether KA is doing anything to help this team when the we all know the answer.  No, he isn’t doing anything and won’t be.  Sorry.  
 

The good news is that we are down to two regulars on D.  Thankfully the two are Dahlin and Samuelsson.  

[nfreeman]

Y'know, I know they need D and likely G as well, but I am going to point out that I think Jost was a nice pickup.  Last night vs AZ the Mitts-Jost-VO line looked better than any Mitts-VO line has looked in a month of Sundays.  DG was on WGR a few days ago and he mentioned that he thinks Jost has a lot more to give.  It sounds like Jost is one of the guys, along with Mitts, Krebs and VO, whose potential the coaches are focusing on unlocking.

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So we have 12 pages of a discussion on whether KA is doing anything to help this team when the we all know the answer.  No, he isn’t doing anything and won’t be.  Sorry.  
 

The good news is that we are down to two regulars on D.  Thankfully the two are Dahlin and Samuelsson.  

How many trades have other teams made at t)his point of the season? Few and far between. Due to injuries the Sabres are down a number of defensemen. But Power and Lyubushkin should be back soon (probably after the road trip, and maybe two weeks later Joki will return. Most people agree with you that the lower end of our defensive pairings is lacking. The same dynamic applies to the goaltending position. Comrie should be coming back in two or three weeks. I don't see KA bringing in another goalie until he sees what Comrie is capable of.

I just don't see the GM resorting to outside help at this point. It just seems to me that the GM has established a course this season and is not going to deviate from it during the season. If there are going to be any significant additions it will be done in the offseason.

[JohnC]

8 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Y'know, I know they need D and likely G as well, but I am going to point out that I think Jost was a nice pickup.  Last night vs AZ the Mitts-Jost-VO line looked better than any Mitts-VO line has looked in a month of Sundays.  DG was on WGR a few days ago and he mentioned that he thinks Jost has a lot more to give.  It sounds like Jost is one of the guys, along with Mitts, Krebs and VO, whose potential the coaches are focusing on unlocking.

The Jost pickup was simply a good addition. He's not much of an offensive player but he is a solid player who adds an element of hardnosed play. And he seems to comfortably fit in with whomever he is playing with. Also, the coach has done wonders for putting Krebs in a position to succeed. Now the next challenge is to figure out who best to pair Mitts with to unlock his potential. From the little I saw of last night's game I thought Mitts played well (as you noted).

[Pimlach]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Back to the theme of is Kevyn doing enough, I did find this interesting in light of my argument that we need a player(s) who can take on guys like Maroon when they run at our goalies, from tonight:

https://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/n266296

Undrafted remember. Now if Kev found us players like that for depth I might be more impressed. 

Looks like Maroon held on for dear life. 

What you are looking for is probably the last ingredient in the puzzle.    

[Pimlach]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I questioned the extension as well. I'm not convinced Granato deserved it, but we shall see, There's no question he's better than Kreuger, but that bar is very very low. 

Why did he not deserve it?  What has he done to not deserve it?  

To me he is bringing out the potential in our players, especially our best players.   What more can he do given what he inherited and the circumstances at the time (Covid, Eichel injury/trade, another rebuild, cap floor player acquisitions, etc).  

Who would you have hired?  

[Pimlach]

10 hours ago, Refuting said:

I think you ride out the extension at this point unless the team implodes 

I was never a fan of firing coaches after 1 or 2 years. How does that build team chemistry/philosophy/identity? 

I mean, was Bylsma really THAT bad? We were in Eichels 2nd year with a drunk as our starting goalie. How was that enough time to evaluate a coach? 

Ralph absolutely had to go though that was blatantly obvious 

Terry and Kim did not like Murray.   Eichel and his cronies did not like Bylsma.  The inmates were running the asylum.   We had very bad leadership in the FO and on that team - Eichel, Kane, Bogo, and Lehner - that was a bad combination of personalities.  

 

[Pimlach]

17 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

As long as we also dump on him for the things he didn't do or mistakes he has made as well eg. goaltending. 

I'm not convinced yet he's actually done anything that any other GM wouldn't have done just as well if not better. It was clear that the old core had to go. Reinhart wasn't going to stay, Eichel wanted out, house was cleaned I suspect at the Pegula's request but most definitely with their blessing. JBot had a mandate to use that core and enhance it. His enhancements are now our core. Adams gets to add assets for that core as any GM would have with the same mandate. So Risto trade great, Reinhart deal remains to be seen (depends on Levi) and Eichel deal depends on what Krebs and the other picks turn into. Goaltending has been absolutely botched. Hall deal was terrible. Free agents and waiver moves haven't really amounted to much. 

IF Adams numerous picks pan out (or at least several of them) then yes, he's a better GM, but it remains to be seen. 

I think Adams has already past JBOT as a GM, just by the solid definition of his plan forward and the execution to date.  Not perfect execution, we can all talk about the goaltending and the remaining holes, but he has many more good moves than bad.  The team is better now than when he started.  They are on the right trajectory.  The young talent is thriving, and their games are exciting.  They all get along and play for each other.  Their player pipeline is highly regarded by league experts.  The FO has some talented people in it that he brought in.  

JBOT is a smart guy, but he never seemed to set a tone for his organization - excellence, hard work, pride - you never heard or felt any of this.  Leadership was always a question on his teams (and on Murray's).  Being a good GM is more than hitting on draft picks and trades.  

I think Adams is taking pages from Brandon Beane and applying it to hockey, and I like that a lot.   

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The Jost pickup was simply a good addition. He's not much of an offensive player but he is a solid player who adds an element of hardnosed play. And he seems to comfortably fit in with whomever he is playing with. Also, the coach has done wonders for putting Krebs in a position to succeed. Now the next challenge is to figure out who best to pair Mitts with to unlock his potential. From the little I saw of last night's game I thought Mitts played well (as you noted).

So your praising KA for getting Jost on waivers (and his $2 mill salary) when our organizational depth is at forward, and you are also ok with him not trading for D help. What about grabbing D help on waivers?  Myers and Reilly are but two players who have been on waivers in recent weeks and both are better than all of our D 7-10.   I’m sorry it’s past time for help to have been acquired.

Edited December 18, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

How many trades have other teams made at t)his point of the season? Few and far between. Due to injuries the Sabres are down a number of defensemen. But Power and Lyubushkin should be back soon (probably after the road trip, and maybe two weeks later Joki will return. Most people agree with you that the lower end of our defensive pairings is lacking. The same dynamic applies to the goaltending position. Comrie should be coming back in two or three weeks. I don't see KA bringing in another goalie until he sees what Comrie is capable of.

I just don't see the GM resorting to outside help at this point. It just seems to me that the GM has established a course this season and is not going to deviate from it during the season. If there are going to be any significant additions it will be done in the offseason.

By my count, I think 5 nhl level trades have been completed since the Sabres started. So 5 times have teams traded nhl level guys since the season began. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by LGR4GM

[PerreaultForever]

12 hours ago, Taro T said:

Adams had not given up on Thompson.  A majority of Sabre fans had given up on him.  Why would the mythical other GM NOT have given up on him?

Remember, even Thompson didn't see himself as an NHL center.  That was ENTIRELY Granato.  So, why wouldn't the new (non Adams) GM have not sent him (or Quinn or Peterka or ...) packing for what they needed then?

or traded Dahlin for a bag of pucks...............I mean hypothetically ANYTHING could have happened so I don't really see your point. We're only talking about what Adams has done and hasn't done (or has failed to do or done badly). If there's a comparison it would be to JBot not being fired and he wouldn't have given up on Thompson either since he brought him in. 

[PerreaultForever]

12 hours ago, Taro T said:

Absolutely one could argue that.  And they could argue that he lucked into Thompson & Dahlin & Cozens & Peterka & Quinn panning out.  Just like it was argued early in his NHL & Sabres career that Hasek lucked into the puck ALWAYS hitting him.

At some point luck ain't luck.  It's actually skill.

Very little of that is actually comparable. 

He inherited Thompson, Dahlin and Cozens, the latter two of who were high picks and expected to be good, that's why JBot drafted them. Quinn and Peterka were Adams picks so, as I've said many times, you can't judge any GM on his drafting until about 3 to 4 years go by. So a first and a second panning out is good. If some later picks eventually pan out even better. 

Hasek? I don't remember anyone referring to him as "lucky" but maybe they did. He had a wild unorthodox style that baffled people but he had will, concentration, focus and incredible athleticism. I do remember seeing him come in during a Chicago game when he was unknown and thinking this guy is weird but looks pretty good. Then we got him and he was. That was a good GM move. But ya, maybe the GM was lucky 🙂

Thompson? That's the wild card isn't it? Nobody saw that coming. 

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Looks like Maroon held on for dear life. 

What you are looking for is probably the last ingredient in the puzzle.    

It's an ingredient. A necessary one. I'd prefer it not to be "last" as I firmly believe the presence of more toughness on the roster now would help our kids develop and play more fearless. A guy with leadership and toughness (Foligno type) would be the ideal. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Why did he not deserve it?  What has he done to not deserve it?  

To me he is bringing out the potential in our players, especially our best players.   What more can he do given what he inherited and the circumstances at the time (Covid, Eichel injury/trade, another rebuild, cap floor player acquisitions, etc).  

Who would you have hired?  

I don't think the team showed enough last year to warrant an extension. If this year ended with a significant improvement over last year, then yes. I don't dislike Granato. I see him as a guy you'd definitely want on your staff as an assistant to work with young players, just still not sure he's a great head coach. 

Who would I have hired? 

So that the youngsters and soft hockey fans can scoff, I'm a big fan of Torts. It would have meant a whole different team/style, but he was available and he'd have been my hire. Now? Trotz, without question. Torts or Trotz there ya go. (and always and still, Rick Dudley as Czar)

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

I think Adams has already past JBOT as a GM, just by the solid definition of his plan forward and the execution to date.  Not perfect execution, we can all talk about the goaltending and the remaining holes, but he has many more good moves than bad.  The team is better now than when he started.  They are on the right trajectory.  The young talent is thriving, and their games are exciting.  They all get along and play for each other.  Their player pipeline is highly regarded by league experts.  The FO has some talented people in it that he brought in.  

JBOT is a smart guy, but he never seemed to set a tone for his organization - excellence, hard work, pride - you never heard or felt any of this.  Leadership was always a question on his teams (and on Murray's).  Being a good GM is more than hitting on draft picks and trades.  

I think Adams is taking pages from Brandon Beane and applying it to hockey, and I like that a lot.   

 

The real thing for me that I think has been lost in recent discussions is I firmly believe Adams missed an opportunity this year. People here think I'm the resident pessimist, but if you go back to free agency and before the season I said I thought there was the possibility of a breakout season but a lot depended on whether or not Cozens matured to a high level and how the 2 rookies played. Kid line has shown that moment is right there and right now. The other key for me was filling the holes, which were 3C, goaltending, and defensive depth (I wanted 2 solid D men signed or traded for). These holes are the thing likely keeping us from the playoffs and I think it's an opportunity missed. 

Adam's timeline is slow and future based. imo TOO SLOW. That's my beef. 

Not picking up Mike Reilly for example was a spendthrift moment that tells me winning this year doesn't matter to him. So imo Adams could have and should have done more than he has. (and before anyone says Reilly sucks, he's way better than Pilut)

[nfreeman]

15 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's an ingredient. A necessary one. I'd prefer it not to be "last" as I firmly believe the presence of more toughness on the roster now would help our kids develop and play more fearless. A guy with leadership and toughness (Foligno type) would be the ideal. 

I think everyone would be happy with an addition like Foligno.  It's Reaves that people are disagreeing with.  I don't think I'd bench KO or Zemgus for Reaves, FWIW (or anyone else in the top 12 forwards -- maybe Asplund or Vinnie, but maybe not).

[PerreaultForever]

Just now, nfreeman said:

I think everyone would be happy with an addition like Foligno.  It's Reaves that people are disagreeing with.  I don't think I'd bench KO or Zemgus for Reaves, FWIW (or anyone else in the top 12 forwards -- maybe Asplund or Vinnie, but maybe not).

Oh I know Reaves isn't ideal, but he was available for next to nothing. The minute a better option presents itself I'd move on that upgrade. 

Right now, if you'd added him, my bottom would be:

Okposo-Jost-VO

Girgs-Krebs-Reaves

Mitts is the guy I'd sit, and Asplund rotates in and out like he is cause he's just kind of meh. Allows me to bench VO when he sucks hard one night.