Is Kevyn Adams doing anything?

[mjd1001]

Its as if when Adams took over, he was told, or his own stategy was simply "a lot of young guys with talent are in the system, get rid of anyone who doesn't want to be here or who might be resistent to 'change' and simply wait, wait a couple years for the prospects to mature and fill the holes you create by getting rid of who doesn't want to be here"

To me, it doesn't look like much beyond that.

I think it might be fair to say he hasn't done a lot yet (although that might be the strategy) but he also hasn't made many huge mistakes.  Risto, Eichel, Reinhart, Montour, and McCabe were the top guys on this team that he got rid of. Some of them are in better situations for themself, but I don't think anyone can say without a doubt that any of them are producing much better than they were here, or a that the teams they are playing on are a lot better than they were as a result of those guys being there. Eichel is Eichel, Reinhart is barely producing at a 50 point pace this year and his ice time is being cut. Risto looks like one of the worst 'high paid' D-men in the league, Montour is actually playing well but I don't hear many cries of wanting him back, and McCabe is...McCabe, a serviceable-at-best 2nd or 3rd pair guy.  Anyway, I thik Adams is doing what he planned to do all along.

Edited December 17, 2022 by mjd1001

[Berg]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Been a fan since 1970.  The first 40 years were really good - No Cups but a lot more winning than losing and many great players.  The past 12 years, basically the Pegula era, have been a disaster.  You can see things looking brighter since Granato took over for Kruger.   

Yes. Now there is a glimmer of hope against the backdrop of past years.
Another very important thing is $ wiggle room.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Its as if when Adams took over, he was told, or his own stategy was simply "a lot of young guys with talent are in the system, get rid of anyone who doesn't want to be here or who might be resistent to 'change' and simply wait, wait a couple years for the prospects to mature and fill the holes you create by getting rid of who doesn't want to be here"

To me, it doesn't look like much beyond that.

I think it might be fair to say he hasn't done a lot yet (although that might be the strategy) but he also hasn't made many huge mistakes.  Risto, Eichel, Reinhart, Montour, and McCabe were the top guys on this team that he got rid of. Some of them are in better situations for themself, but I don't think anyone can say without a doubt that any of them are producing much better than they were here, or a that the teams they are playing on are a lot better than they were as a result of those guys being there. Eichel is Eichel, Reinhart is barely producing at a 50 point pace this year and his ice time is being cut. Risto looks like one of the worst 'high paid' D-men in the league, Montour is actually playing well but I don't hear many cries of wanting him back, and McCabe is...McCabe, a serviceable-at-best 2nd or 3rd pair guy.  Anyway, I thik Adams is doing what he planned to do all along.

Reinhart had 82 points last year. Under the new assistant coach for the NJD I think. 

[mjd1001]

25 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Reinhart had 82 points last year. Under the new assistant coach for the NJD I think. 

This year he has taken a step back for sure so far. He is even gettin his ice time cut.

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Its as if when Adams took over, he was told, or his own stategy was simply "a lot of young guys with talent are in the system, get rid of anyone who doesn't want to be here or who might be resistent to 'change' and simply wait, wait a couple years for the prospects to mature and fill the holes you create by getting rid of who doesn't want to be here"

To me, it doesn't look like much beyond that.

I think it might be fair to say he hasn't done a lot yet (although that might be the strategy) but he also hasn't made many huge mistakes.  Risto, Eichel, Reinhart, Montour, and McCabe were the top guys on this team that he got rid of. Some of them are in better situations for themself, but I don't think anyone can say without a doubt that any of them are producing much better than they were here, or a that the teams they are playing on are a lot better than they were as a result of those guys being there. Eichel is Eichel, Reinhart is barely producing at a 50 point pace this year and his ice time is being cut. Risto looks like one of the worst 'high paid' D-men in the league, Montour is actually playing well but I don't hear many cries of wanting him back, and McCabe is...McCabe, a serviceable-at-best 2nd or 3rd pair guy.  Anyway, I thik Adams is doing what he planned to do all along.

Which is 1 way to look at it.  But given 3 points, seems rather cursory.  

1.  He brought the Sabres backoffice into the analytics era.  And with that he seems to have nailed 3 draft picks (only 1 of which was a "no brainer" that it sure seems there were 2 options that both would've been excellent & the one he chose is more of what the Sabres need) & has a lot of others looking promising.

2.  That "simply wait" has resulted in an Art Ross/ Rocket Richard challenger, a Norris challenger, a ridiculously young line that is playing like a true 2nd line & MIGHT grow into a 2nd 1st line, the best defensive D-man since McKee who still has a ceiling of Ramsey (no guarantee whatsoever on that), & a blue liner Calder challenger.  (Plus 2/3's of that kid line are also Calder challengers.)  Pretty nice package to wait for.

3.  One of those replacement pieces is their top RW.

Going beyond "simply wait" MIGHT have resulted in one or more of those pieces going out the door for a piece that could help this bunch "win now."

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

This year he has taken a step back for sure so far. He is even gettin his ice time cut.

Florida panicked and fired their coach, now they might not make the playoffs. 

[grinreaper]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

You are correct that most of our best players were brought in by KA's predecessor/s. But to his credit, when KA took over he didn't indiscriminately jettison players for the sake of completely starting over in order to separate himself from the prior administrators. He kept players that he wanted to be the new core and dealt players from the old core to start afresh. And to his credit he got a fair return for players that he dispatched. It is the return on these players that is to a significant degree accelerating the rebuild.  KA simply handled this remaking of the roster in a smart and judicious manner. There is still more for him to do but let's give him credit for what he has already done.

Good points. I think that in general people here are discounting the importance of team building in favor of personnel evaluation. Of course picking the best players is a giant part of the GM's job but those drafted players and those picked up in trades or FA need to fit the team. 

[grinreaper]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Florida panicked and fired their coach, now they might not make the playoffs. 

For that team to not make the playoffs would not only be a shame but a really good example of screwing up a good balance on a team that worked well together just last year. 

[LGR4GM]

Just now, grinreaper said:

For that team to not make the playoffs would not only be a shame but a really good example of screwing up a good balance on a team that worked well together just last year. 

And then you see the jump njd have taken

 

[grinreaper]

46 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

And then you see the jump njd have taken

 

Lindy Ruff is a good coach. My impression of him was that he wasn't locked into a specific system or approach but fashioned the teams play around the players that he had. If I recall correctly he tended to treat rookies like rookies were treated in the old days. I make no judgements regarding that since it is only my impression derived from an incident or two. He might have just been attempting to get a specific message across to a player or two that needed a sharp whack on the shins with Lindy's stick.

On a side note, the recent game against the Avs in which we were playing only 5 defensemen reminded me of when Ruff was playing. He was never a "star" but was well respected by his teammates and spent time with a "C". He had a little extra value in that he was capable of playing both on the wing and as a defenseman. One would think that a smart coach would look to develop that flexibility at the right time. 

The jump in points that NJ has taken this year has been used here as a criticism of the Sabres for not making the same improvement. Obviously teams are different and are at varying stages in their development. The same people who make that criticism generally are showing impatience for the Sabres to make the playoffs. Making the playoffs this year would be nice but in the big picture getting bounced in the 1st or 2nd round doesn't mean much more than just quieting the people who incessantly talk about the Sabres lengthy playoff drought. i think the Sabre's real goal is to build a team capable of contending for the Cup over an extended period of time. They are in a position right now that if they wanted to overspend in money or assets they could take some shortcuts that wouldn't be consistent with their overall plans but could get them into the playoffs. Playoff games are fun and exciting but that excitement is so much more if there's a real possibility that they could make a run at the Cup.

Edited December 18, 2022 by grinreaper

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, JohnC said:

You are correct that most of our best players were brought in by KA's predecessor/s. But to his credit, when KA took over he didn't indiscriminately jettison players for the sake of completely starting over in order to separate himself from the prior administrators. He kept players that he wanted to be the new core and dealt players from the old core to start afresh. And to his credit he got a fair return for players that he dispatched. It is the return on these players that is to a significant degree accelerating the rebuild.  KA simply handled this remaking of the roster in a smart and judicious manner. There is still more for him to do but let's give him credit for what he has already done.

As long as we also dump on him for the things he didn't do or mistakes he has made as well eg. goaltending. 

I'm not convinced yet he's actually done anything that any other GM wouldn't have done just as well if not better. It was clear that the old core had to go. Reinhart wasn't going to stay, Eichel wanted out, house was cleaned I suspect at the Pegula's request but most definitely with their blessing. JBot had a mandate to use that core and enhance it. His enhancements are now our core. Adams gets to add assets for that core as any GM would have with the same mandate. So Risto trade great, Reinhart deal remains to be seen (depends on Levi) and Eichel deal depends on what Krebs and the other picks turn into. Goaltending has been absolutely botched. Hall deal was terrible. Free agents and waiver moves haven't really amounted to much. 

IF Adams numerous picks pan out (or at least several of them) then yes, he's a better GM, but it remains to be seen. 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

As long as we also dump on him for the things he didn't do or mistakes he has made as well eg. goaltending. 

I'm not convinced yet he's actually done anything that any other GM wouldn't have done just as well if not better. It was clear that the old core had to go. Reinhart wasn't going to stay, Eichel wanted out, house was cleaned I suspect at the Pegula's request but most definitely with their blessing. JBot had a mandate to use that core and enhance it. His enhancements are now our core. Adams gets to add assets for that core as any GM would have with the same mandate. So Risto trade great, Reinhart deal remains to be seen (depends on Levi) and Eichel deal depends on what Krebs and the other picks turn into. Goaltending has been absolutely botched. Hall deal was terrible. Free agents and waiver moves haven't really amounted to much. 

IF Adams numerous picks pan out (or at least several of them) then yes, he's a better GM, but it remains to be seen. 

You sure other GMs wouldn't have seen an underperformed baby giraffe of a 24 yo winger and not wanted to move him in a package for a legit C to man the fort while waiting for Mittelstadt & Cozens to step up to top 6 down the middle?

Sure, it's obvious to use him as the centerpiece of the offense today.  But was it 2 years ago?  Not convinced it was and that's just one example of a move that could've been made that would've set this rebuild even further back.

[LGR4GM]

Just now, Taro T said:

You sure other GMs wouldn't have seen an underperformed baby giraffe of a 24 yo winger and not wanted to move him in a package for a legit C to man the fort while waiting for Mittelstadt & Cozens to step up to top 6 down the middle?

Sure, it's obvious to use him as the centerpiece of the offense today.  But was it 2 years ago?  Not convinced it was and that's just one example of a move that could've been made that would've set this rebuild even further back.

I also wonder if another GM trades Eichel for less just to be done with it. Or signs Tage early. Or recognizes Samuelssons value

[PerreaultForever]

7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You sure other GMs wouldn't have seen an underperformed baby giraffe of a 24 yo winger and not wanted to move him in a package for a legit C to man the fort while waiting for Mittelstadt & Cozens to step up to top 6 down the middle?

Sure, it's obvious to use him as the centerpiece of the offense today.  But was it 2 years ago?  Not convinced it was and that's just one example of a move that could've been made that would've set this rebuild even further back.

Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying Adams deserves credit for not trading away Thompson? That's a bit of a reach for handing out credit don't you think? I don't even think there was a market for him 2 years ago anyway and who knows, maybe he tried to move him and failed. The move to center, now that was interesting. I assume credit can go to Granato there but will never really know if he was a genius or just lucky (since at the time we basically had no other centers so it was a desperation try). 

[Crusader1969]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying Adams deserves credit for not trading away Thompson? That's a bit of a reach for handing out credit don't you think? I don't even think there was a market for him 2 years ago anyway and who knows, maybe he tried to move him and failed. The move to center, now that was interesting. I assume credit can go to Granato there but will never really know if he was a genius or just lucky (since at the time we basically had no other centers so it was a desperation try). 

Can you remind me. Who traded Risto and got the 14 overall pick for him? 

[grinreaper]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying Adams deserves credit for not trading away Thompson? That's a bit of a reach for handing out credit don't you think? I don't even think there was a market for him 2 years ago anyway and who knows, maybe he tried to move him and failed. The move to center, now that was interesting. I assume credit can go to Granato there but will never really know if he was a genius or just lucky (since at the time we basically had no other centers so it was a desperation try). 

Obviously Granato had a substantial affect on several players including TNT and Dahlin and gave them the kind of direction that allowed them to blossom. It sounds as if you are admitting that DG took what appeared to be mediocre players and turned them into highly skilled guys that are presently leading the league in goals scored. 

[GoPuckYourself]

It’s clear as day that Middlestadt shouldn’t be here long term, I’m hoping he is getting the playing time to pad his stats so we can deal him for a veteran Dman who hits.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

Not sure what your point is here. Are you saying Adams deserves credit for not trading away Thompson? That's a bit of a reach for handing out credit don't you think? I don't even think there was a market for him 2 years ago anyway and who knows, maybe he tried to move him and failed. The move to center, now that was interesting. I assume credit can go to Granato there but will never really know if he was a genius or just lucky (since at the time we basically had no other centers so it was a desperation try). 

Before getting to the point want to restate (not from the post you quoted, but have said it several times) that yes Adams has not handled the GT well.  The point is that Adams gets credit for not just the moves he made but also the ones he didn't.  (And on the GT front both for the most part work against him.)

As you say, other GMs would've been adding to the core the team was left with.  At the end of that summer hat "core" was Dahlin, Skinner, Cozens, Mittelstadt, & possibly Jokiharju and Olofsson.  Power would definitely join it, but he wasn't even leaving college at that point.  There was no 1st line to speak of and almost no top D pairing.  As GA so often states, other GMs would've almost certainly been far more active trying to get a reasonable team now.  That almost certainly would've cost them something that has blossomed in the past 2 years.

Why is not trading away Thompson not worthy of credit?  Said he very likely could've been a piece of a trade to get a C for the present.  Didn't say nor imply he could've gotten 1 on his own.  That's kind of the point.  Somebody else easily could've gone in yet a different direction and the Sabres would've been floundering yet again.

[grinreaper]

3 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

It’s clear as day that Middlestadt shouldn’t be here long term, I’m hoping he is getting the playing time to pad his stats so we can deal him for a veteran Dman who hits.

I could change out Mittlestadt for Thompson and the above would be what people here were posting less than 2 years ago. Rumors have it that Adams and Granato believe that Casey has as much pure talent as anyone on the team. Under those circumstances moving on from him too soon could be a major mistake. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Can you remind me. Who traded Risto and got the 14 overall pick for him? 

I have said on many occasions the Risto trade was a good one. So far it's Adam's best move. It goes in the plus column but it doesn't elevate him to Sainthood. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, grinreaper said:

Obviously Granato had a substantial affect on several players including TNT and Dahlin and gave them the kind of direction that allowed them to blossom. It sounds as if you are admitting that DG took what appeared to be mediocre players and turned them into highly skilled guys that are presently leading the league in goals scored. 

I haven't said anything different. I'm not sure how much is Granato and how much is those players maturing but it doesn't really matter to me, they are the new core of this team - but they were brought here by JBot so you can't give Adams credit for that. 

4 hours ago, Taro T said:

Why is not trading away Thompson not worthy of credit? 

Because he was never on the trading block. The team had in no way given up on him yet. 

[JohnC]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

As long as we also dump on him for the things he didn't do or mistakes he has made as well eg. goaltending. 

I'm not convinced yet he's actually done anything that any other GM wouldn't have done just as well if not better. It was clear that the old core had to go. Reinhart wasn't going to stay, Eichel wanted out, house was cleaned I suspect at the Pegula's request but most definitely with their blessing. JBot had a mandate to use that core and enhance it. His enhancements are now our core. Adams gets to add assets for that core as any GM would have with the same mandate. So Risto trade great, Reinhart deal remains to be seen (depends on Levi) and Eichel deal depends on what Krebs and the other picks turn into. Goaltending has been absolutely botched. Hall deal was terrible. Free agents and waiver moves haven't really amounted to much. 

IF Adams numerous picks pan out (or at least several of them) then yes, he's a better GM, but it remains to be seen. 

You can diminish the GM's accomplishments if you want. But what I am now seeing after making a bevy of personnel and organizational staffing decisions are results that would lead a fair-minded person to believe that the Sabres are on a positive trajectory. No one can argue that the Sabres are a complete roster. There certainly are needs. But as talent is being added and young players mature you can see this team move up the ranks and become a serious team. 

[grinreaper]

53 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I haven't said anything different. I'm not sure how much is Granato and how much is those players maturing but it doesn't really matter to me, they are the new core of this team - but they were brought here by JBot so you can't give Adams credit for that. 

Because he was never on the trading block. The team had in no way given up on him yet. 

The light certainly went off in basically the whole team when Granato replaced Krueger and got the players to believe in themselves and play without looking over their shoulders, worried about displeasing Krueger. Before Granato took over TNT was JAG, Dahlin wasn't anywhere near his potential and 9 million dollar Skinner was on the 4th line. The play of many others improved too and the team started winning at a rate that was playoff worthy. Adams plan doesn't stop at just drafting good players but includes building a team and organization that is functional.

[Refuting]

5 hours ago, grinreaper said:

Obviously Granato had a substantial affect on several players including TNT and Dahlin and gave them the kind of direction that allowed them to blossom. It sounds as if you are admitting that DG took what appeared to be mediocre players and turned them into highly skilled guys that are presently leading the league in goals scored. 

*effect

5 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Can you remind me. Who traded Risto and got the 14 overall pick for him? 

That was a great trade but hardly proven. We took Rosen who remind me what has he done in the NHL? 

[PerreaultForever]

25 minutes ago, grinreaper said:

The light certainly went off in basically the whole team when Granato replaced Krueger and got the players to believe in themselves and play without looking over their shoulders, worried about displeasing Krueger. Before Granato took over TNT was JAG, Dahlin wasn't anywhere near his potential and 9 million dollar Skinner was on the 4th line. The play of many others improved too and the team started winning at a rate that was playoff worthy. Adams plan doesn't stop at just drafting good players but includes building a team and organization that is functional.

JBot also brought Granato to Buffalo. One could argue Adams promoting him was a safe move and/or a fail in hiring an experienced NHL coach at the time.