Thoughts on Thompson's & Mittelstadt's Development

[Radar]

Did someone use Mitts in the same sentence with development? LOL!

[K-9]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

Taro. Holy *****, did you go to the GA school of posting?  I’m not reading all that LOL.

Was it @darksabrewho once said a wall of text like this looked like a goalie pad? 😂

[nfreeman]

Excellent post, as always, by @Taro T.

I don't think TT-like development for Mitts is realistic but it's still quite possible that he could develop into a quality 3C or third-line winger. 

Mitts is under contract at a reasonable $2.5MM cap hit this year and next.  That gives the Sabres plenty of time to try to develop him and make a decision on him.  No one is going to give them anything for him in trade, so it's not like they are passing up good assets by hanging on to him.

By the end of this year, they'll have more info on him, as well as on Asplund, Krebs and the other young forwards in the system (Savoie, Kulich, Rosen, Rousek, Cedarquist, etc.) and their viability as NHL players next year.

We'll see.

[Zamboni]

1 hour ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

I didn't read it either, but still gave @Taro T a cup thingie based on posting reputation.

I read the thread title and just posted what I thought.

Yea I didn’t read it either. Too much lol. 
Im sure it’s wonderful and insightful and kudos for the time he took.

Can someone cliff note it?

[PerreaultForever]

Thompson is a fascinating player to me. Most of us saw his size and wanted him to be a physical power forward. A missing Sabres component. Big knock was he just didn't seem to want to bang people around and use that size, and he still doesn't - in that way. So what was it he said, something like "I thought about what I was good at and developed that" (or thereabouts) and he's done just that. Takes over a huge amount of ice and shields the puck with that size and reach and on top of that power and accuracy in his shot have gone off the charts. He's simply played to his own strengths and is in a way redefining what a center can be and how he can play in this current NHL. Trust me, this will be contagious and height and reach are going to become bigger things for the stats/draft dudes in their center icemen .

Now Mitts. My question there is what is he actually good at? What role can he fill and what style can he play? I honestly don't know. I see no particular strength at the NHL level so he's going to have to up his desire and work his ass off to become something or he's not going to be here or anywhere in a few years. 

One side note, I do wonder now if Tage wasn't affected more than we think by his wife's cancer issue and maybe that held him back or distracted him from his development back in 2019 and 2020 I think it was. Whatever the case, he's on fire now. 

[Doohicksie]

18 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Most of us saw his size and wanted him to be a physical power forward. A missing Sabres component.

I think that's what Tuch is turning out to be.  If he's going to stay on the top line he needs to play that role.  His two primary assists to Tage last night were good examples of that, particularly the second one where he drew two defenders and managed to slide the puck over to Tage.  Danny Briere couldn't have done what Tuch did on that goal.

[nfreeman]

43 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Now Mitts. My question there is what is he actually good at? What role can he fill and what style can he play? I honestly don't know. I see no particular strength at the NHL level so he's going to have to up his desire and work his ass off to become something or he's not going to be here or anywhere in a few years.

IMHO, Mitts' money maker is his hands.  When he has time and space, he can make a very nice pass or deke a goalie and finish.  The problem is that the rest of his game doesn't give rise to enough opportunities for him to have the puck with time and space.

I think he needs 2 linemates who play a good forecheck/possession game and he needs more experience to develop that part of his game.  At present he doesn't seem to know where to go in the O-zone -- unlike someone like Quinn, who always seems to be in the right spot -- and with linemates who don't compensate for this weakness, the result is that when Mitts is on the ice and the puck goes into the O-zone, the opponents have a ridiculously easy time getting it back out and going the other way.

Hockey IQ seems like a difficult thing to develop, so I'm kinda skeptical, but I also want to give him some time.  His NHL career to date has been managed by terrible coaching for the first few years, then missing most of last year with injury.

[Marvin]

11 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

IMHO, Mitts' money maker is his hands.  When he has time and space, he can make a very nice pass or deke a goalie and finish.  The problem is that the rest of his game doesn't give rise to enough opportunities for him to have the puck with time and space.

I think he needs 2 linemates who play a good forecheck/possession game and he needs more experience to develop that part of his game.  At present he doesn't seem to know where to go in the O-zone -- unlike someone like Quinn, who always seems to be in the right spot -- and with linemates who don't compensate for this weakness, the result is that when Mitts is on the ice and the puck goes into the O-zone, the opponents have a ridiculously easy time getting it back out and going the other way.

Hockey IQ seems like a difficult thing to develop, so I'm kinda skeptical, but I also want to give him some time.  His NHL career to date has been managed by terrible coaching for the first few years, then missing most of last year with injury.

This looks like Mittlestadt needs 2 of Girgensons, Okposo, Jost, Asplund, and Hinostroza as linemates.  The problem is the same thing applies to Olofsson and Krebs.  It is impossible to do this without benching at least 1 of those 3 each game.

[matter2003]

 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

IMHO, Mitts' money maker is his hands.  When he has time and space, he can make a very nice pass or deke a goalie and finish.  The problem is that the rest of his game doesn't give rise to enough opportunities for him to have the puck with time and space.

I think he needs 2 linemates who play a good forecheck/possession game and he needs more experience to develop that part of his game.  At present he doesn't seem to know where to go in the O-zone -- unlike someone like Quinn, who always seems to be in the right spot -- and with linemates who don't compensate for this weakness, the result is that when Mitts is on the ice and the puck goes into the O-zone, the opponents have a ridiculously easy time getting it back out and going the other way.

Hockey IQ seems like a difficult thing to develop, so I'm kinda skeptical, but I also want to give him some time.  His NHL career to date has been managed by terrible coaching for the first few years, then missing most of last year with injury.

I don’t think hockey IQ can be developed.  Maybe refined. I think you either have it or you don’t.  Casey doesn’t.  

[Doohicksie]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

 

This didn't age well 😄

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I think that's what Tuch is turning out to be.  If he's going to stay on the top line he needs to play that role.  His two primary assists to Tage last night were good examples of that, particularly the second one where he drew two defenders and managed to slide the puck over to Tage.  Danny Briere couldn't have done what Tuch did on that goal.

Well no question, but that's not what Tuch is turning out to be, that's what Tuch is and has been for a while before we got him. There is no question he makes the players on the ice with him better. They compliment each other well. The move to center for Thompson, perhaps a lucky accident, perhaps by design, who knows, but it created a solid tandem. 

[Taro T]

10 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't because I don't think he will ever have the game processing ability to do that. He reminds me of risto where there are flashes of the raw underlying skill but the processing ability to put that all together does not exist. He is the opposite of Quinn who manipulates space and finds open space to be a good option for his teammates. 

That said your central premise seems to be something along the lines of Tage did it so maybe Mitts can too and my answer is no. Tage like Josh Allen is an exception. A strange Unicorn who bucked trends and found ways to improve and become very good. Mitts is going to be the rule, he is going to be the former 1st round pick who couldn't adapt his skills to the NHL and will be a bottom 6 guy that bounces around a bit before either finding a home or washing out. I wanted Mitts to work but I don't see him mentally understanding the game at a level needed to make his skillset truly shine and I am not prepared to insulate him with better players so he can be useful here. Trade him for defense help and then let Östlund, Savoie, Kulich or someone else slide into that role over the next couple years. We can find a 3c in UFA to plug that gap until then. 

 

9 hours ago, Taro T said:

...

And, no, you missed the premise.  Will try to expound on it more later, but have already wasted way too much time today on the subject.  (Not trying to be dismissive; have a day job and really have been here way too long today.)

The reason you missed the premise is the final paragraph was only partially complete.  The post wasn't supposed to only be a compare & contrast of the development of the 2 players.  It was supposed to end w/ a question.  Ooops.  Like mentioned in the 1st paragraph, was interested in both why Mitts seemingly has stagnated but also what might be done to get him back on track and further if it's worth the effort to get him on track.  And before answering those last 2 Q's, they need to ask themselves whether he's showing enough signs of taking a next step to make it worth asking those Q's.

Mittelstadt is under contract for another year after this, so if they still believe there's something there it is in their best interest to bring it out of him.  (Suppose that's also true of Olofsson but with the extra years under his belt (even though he doesn't have all that much more NHL experience) don't see it as interesting an exercise to look at.)

Also, am curious if the thoughts on Thompson's path seem reasonable.  Haven't fully fleshed out he thoughts on either player but have been reassessing the thoughts on both.

Seperately, something happened between the Bruins game & the Devils game.  Mitts got his most usage by TOI & shifts (maybe not absolute most, but definitely top 3 in both) against the B's and looked really good going against the top line (yes, his line was out for the brutal shift when Dahlin was hurt but that was what it was) but then in the game after the Cozterkinn line got elevated to 2nd line, Mitts line was effectively made the 4th line.  He had been on a 50 point pace before the demotion, now he's on a 41 point pace.  Would really like to have been the proverbial fly on the wall in the coaches room when they were making the adjustment.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, nfreeman said:

IMHO, Mitts' money maker is his hands.  When he has time and space, he can make a very nice pass or deke a goalie and finish.  The problem is that the rest of his game doesn't give rise to enough opportunities for him to have the puck with time and space.

I think he needs 2 linemates who play a good forecheck/possession game and he needs more experience to develop that part of his game.  At present he doesn't seem to know where to go in the O-zone -- unlike someone like Quinn, who always seems to be in the right spot -- and with linemates who don't compensate for this weakness, the result is that when Mitts is on the ice and the puck goes into the O-zone, the opponents have a ridiculously easy time getting it back out and going the other way.

Hockey IQ seems like a difficult thing to develop, so I'm kinda skeptical, but I also want to give him some time.  His NHL career to date has been managed by terrible coaching for the first few years, then missing most of last year with injury.

What you say isn't wrong imo but it brings up some nuance that is important. ?When he has time and space" is all fine and good and it is what makes junior players great but in the NHL you need to be able to CREATE time and space for yourself or you need linemates to create it for you and in a sense carry you (which is obviously non ideal). That's the crux of the line's problem as VO also needs time and space and two guys needing with no one creating, that's a problem. 

Quinn, in time I think, will develop the ability to make his own space but right now he's the beneficiary of playing with Cozens who has great hockey sense, makes great decisions, and most of all can possess and hold the puck and thus create a lot of that needed time and space so Quinn can just move into that open area or towards the goal or whatever it is at the time. 

So I guess what I'm really saying is do we really want to find ways for Mitts to succeed more (i.e. be carried by his linemates) or are we better off to find another Cozens (or Thompson), let them create time and space for their linemates, and forget Mitts entirely. In the long run, I think that's the better plan. 

[Doohicksie]

10 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well no question, but that's not what Tuch is turning out to be, that's what Tuch is and has been for a while before we got him. There is no question he makes the players on the ice with him better. They compliment each other well. The move to center for Thompson, perhaps a lucky accident, perhaps by design, who knows, but it created a solid tandem. 

Yep.  I didn't see too much of Tuch before he was with the Sabres though.  I described Tage's line in another post as three virtuosos who play well off each other (as opposed to the Cozens line which is a well-synchronized unit).  Each of the players on Tage's line can solo and improvise but the other two are there to pick up when they have to.

[PerreaultForever]

4 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Yep.  I didn't see too much of Tuch before he was with the Sabres though.  I described Tage's line in another post as three virtuosos who play well off each other (as opposed to the Cozens line which is a well-synchronized unit).  Each of the players on Tage's line can solo and improvise but the other two are there to pick up when they have to.

I'm not as sold as you are. I still find Skinner as the weak link in terms of a top line. Sometimes good sometimes bad he improvises (as you put it) far too often and gives the puck away more often than makes a great pass. Sometimes he's great, but some games he's an undisciplined liability. 

[Doohicksie]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

but some games he's an undisciplined liability. 

Not saying he never makes a bad pass, but to me it seems the "undisciplined liability" is more reputation than current performance. 

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not as sold as you are. I still find Skinner as the weak link in terms of a top line. Sometimes good sometimes bad he improvises (as you put it) far too often and gives the puck away more often than makes a great pass. Sometimes he's great, but some games he's an undisciplined liability. 

Shocker.

[Refuting]

12 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not as sold as you are. I still find Skinner as the weak link in terms of a top line. Sometimes good sometimes bad he improvises (as you put it) far too often and gives the puck away more often than makes a great pass. Sometimes he's great, but some games he's an undisciplined liability. 

Afinogenov type 

[Zamboni]

Some fans began to have a bug up their butt about Skinner for no other reason than when he signed the 9M per contract. It’s just pure nonsense.

If Skinner:

Gets 80+ points a season

Is above average defensively 

Never makes a mistake 

Passes the “eye test”

Is a + player by a wide margin

Plays with “grit”

And rarely gets injured …

Really Realistic benchmarks like that, THEN he’s worth it. Anything less and he’s overpaid and semi garbage and needs to be moved by any means necessary. 😂

 

At least that’s how it looks to me …

[Refuting]

Some fans will like anything that plays for their team 

 

 

 

 

[Porous Five Hole]

With development in mind, it is time to move Mitts for whatever, and install Krebs in that role.  That can be 3C, or wing.  
 

Mitts has stalled. With the current top two lines set in stone, Casey is a blocker for future development.   With Krebs in a third line role, he will get low pressure minutes and a chance to grow. 
 

It’s time.  The Sabres organization cannot let the unicorn that is Tage prevent them from moving on from players. If Mitts flourishes elsewhere, so be it.  

[Goldseatsaud]

37 seems like a role player and is happy to score 10-14 goals all year

[Refuting]

@ 5 holes 

You're assuming that other Teams/GMs aren't aware of how bad Mittlestink is

At this point we'd have to pay another team to take him 

 

 

 

 

[Porous Five Hole]

Just now, Refuting said:

@ 5 holes 

You're assuming that other Teams/GMs aren't aware of how bad Mittlestink is

At this point we'd have to pay another team to take him 

 

 

 

 

Understood. Mitts is a RFA at season’s end. Just don’t qualify him and move on. It’s time.