Doesn't sound like losing is accepted

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, SabresVet said:

After the front office turmoil from 2012-2020 (Ruff to Botterill and everything in between) where else do the Pegula's go for a GM?  They'll ride it out with Adams because they basically are out of options and career-minded front office types will not set foot in that organization without demanding absolute control.  I seriously doubt ownership will authorize that in the wake of previous president/GM hires.  

Buffalo absolutely cannot be a 75-80 point team this season and it be considered progress.  Youth or no youth, the wins have to start coming more often. 

Well that's just not accurate IMO. I think they will clear 80pts though so it is a moot point. 

The Adams statement here implies that they are stuck with Adams and that he isn't very good at his job. I have seen signs of mistakes but he often corrects them and actually has an articulated plan he is following. So far the jury is still out but he's been the most cohesive and adaptive GM since Darcy. You imply that they are out of options... there are 32 GM jobs in the world, whenever anyone implies no one will take a GM job, they are honestly full of it. 

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

I disagree with this.  I don’t think there is any evidence to support it.  In the past 1-2 years Buffalo has hired experienced, highly regarded people to work in the front office.

And then there is this. Buffalo's got Don Granato as coach who is highly respected around the league and even though this board has members who love to ignore this, the guy has 20 years of coaching experience. They have an analytics staff that is a who's who of the hockey analytics community. Their agm is well known commodity from a winning org. The goaltending coach likewise comes from 2 different winning orgs. One of their development coaches is one of the most successful undrafted players of the last 20 years.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

And then there is this. Buffalo's got Don Granato as coach who is highly respected around the league and even though this board has members who love to ignore this, the guy has 20 years of coaching experience. They have an analytics staff that is a who's who of the hockey analytics community. Their agm is well known commodity from a winning org. The goaltending coach likewise comes from 2 different winning orgs. One of their development coaches is one of the most successful undrafted players of the last 20 years.  

Yet somehow they can’t build a good defense and get even decent goaltending.  

The issue isn’t the staff.  The issue is their boss and his boss.  Winning starts from the top down and until KA properly supports the team and insists on a winning product we won’t have one.  

It’s quite possible that TP has an internal cap and that is a huge limiting factor.  

However the offense is playoff caliber. Maybe it’s time TP took the training wheels off and allows KA to fix the issues on the team to make a playoff run a year ahead of schedule.  

If TP isn’t limiting the payroll maybe it’s time for TP to tell KA to make the appropriate moves to get back to the playoffs.

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[SabresVet]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

I disagree with this.  I don’t think there is any evidence to support it.  In the past 1-2 years Buffalo has hired experienced, highly regarded people to work in the front office.

Who?  They've cashiered a lot of executives in both hockey ops and business over the years.  It's been a revolving door.    

29 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Well that's just not accurate IMO. I think they will clear 80pts though so it is a moot point. 

The Adams statement here implies that they are stuck with Adams and that he isn't very good at his job. I have seen signs of mistakes but he often corrects them and actually has an articulated plan he is following. So far the jury is still out but he's been the most cohesive and adaptive GM since Darcy. You imply that they are out of options... there are 32 GM jobs in the world, whenever anyone implies no one will take a GM job, they are honestly full of it. 

I implied nothing other than what was written: that through nearly 1/3rd of the season they're on a 75 point pace. 80 still puts them 20 behind what it took last year to be the Eastern Conference's 2nd wildcard.  And in the last full season before that (2018-19), that's good for 18 behind the last playoff spot.  

As for culture (or in this case "cohesiveness") people glom on to this concept when results, i.e. wins aren't happening.  When in doubt, pivot the debate into something not quantifiable.  

As for the tired narrative of "there are 32 jobs"...not all of them are anywhere near equal.  You're sadly mistaken if you think working in Arizona or Buffalo is the same as, say Tampa or New York.  And that's because ownership will invest financially and provide the authority commensurate with being a NHL GM.

I get that rebuilding in the NHL takes time, but as many others have noted, their development plan seemed to clear the decks for the younger players to get PT so they would ascend faster.  No matter what a fan's perspective is, this is a results driven business.  What I see here is some are questioning why people get re-signed when the results in the W-L column aren't there.  

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by SabresVet

[Zamboni]

15 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

Who?  They've cashiered a lot of executives in both hockey ops and business over the years.  It's been a revolving door.    

 

@Curt said 1-2 years. So stay in that narrow lane of 1-2 years. Don’t change the conversation to a much wider spectrum  of  “ over the years“. And he’s right. 

 

And you could easily answer your own question… But I searched and it was very easy to find the answer to your question of… Who?

 

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/team/staff

[Curt]

19 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

Who?  They've cashiered a lot of executives in both hockey ops and business over the years.  It's been a revolving door.    

Since Adams took over, he has brought in a group of highly regarded front office personnel.  Jason Karmanos, Sam Ventura, and Domenic Galamini Jr. are the guys I had in mind.  They are experienced guys at the top of their fields of expertise who came from successful organizations and chose to join the Sabres organization.

[K-9]

48 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yet somehow they can’t build a good defense and get even decent goaltending.  

The issue isn’t the staff.  The issue is their boss and his boss.  Winning starts from the top down and until KA properly supports the team and insists on a winning product we won’t have one.  

It’s quite possible that TP has an internal cap and that is a huge limiting factor.  

However the offense is playoff caliber. Maybe it’s time TP took the training wheels off and allows KA to fix the issues on the team to make a playoff run a year ahead of schedule.  

If TP isn’t limiting the payroll maybe it’s time for TP to tell KA to make the appropriate moves to get back to the playoffs.

 

Total conjecture.

[Pimlach]

48 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

And then there is this. Buffalo's got Don Granato as coach who is highly respected around the league and even though this board has members who love to ignore this, the guy has 20 years of coaching experience. They have an analytics staff that is a who's who of the hockey analytics community. Their agm is well known commodity from a winning org. The goaltending coach likewise comes from 2 different winning orgs. One of their development coaches is one of the most successful undrafted players of the last 20 years.  

Good comments.  Given the past ten years I don't want to see any firings of Adams and Granato.  

It would do people some good to look at Granato's history and coaching record.   He has tons of head coaching experience in USHL, ECHL, AHL, NHL Assistant Coach, and now NHL HC.  He has taken the long road and battled a serious illness along the way.  He knows how to work with the young players of today.  

This is his 2nd full season (plus he had a partial season in the Covid year).  At least for me, I want to see growth in the overall team play and I want to see that growth reflected in the standings.  Given the deliberately slow pace taken by the GM, Granato needs at least 3-4 full years to be fairly evaluated.  

No doubt he has worked wonders with Dahlin and Tage.  He resurrected Skinner.  Power, Muel, Quinn, Peterka and Cozens are all thriving under him.     

Firing DG at this point would get more heads shaking and eyes rolling in the NHL community.  Then we can all talk about no one wanting to come here because that will happen again.  

 

 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, SabresVet said:

Who?  They've cashiered a lot of executives in both hockey ops and business over the years.  It's been a revolving door.    

I implied nothing other than what was written: that through nearly 1/3rd of the season they're on a 75 point pace. 80 still puts them 20 behind what it took last year to be the Eastern Conference's 2nd wildcard.  And in the last full season before that (2018-19), that's good for 18 behind the last playoff spot.  

As for culture (or in this case "cohesiveness") people glom on to this concept when results, i.e. wins aren't happening.  When in doubt, pivot the debate into something not quantifiable.  

As for the tired narrative of "there are 32 jobs"...not all of them are anywhere near equal.  You're sadly mistaken if you think working in Arizona or Buffalo is the same as, say Tampa or New York.  And that's because ownership will invest financially and provide the authority commensurate with being a NHL GM.

I get that rebuilding in the NHL takes time, but as many others have noted, their development plan seemed to clear the decks for the younger players to get PT so they would ascend faster.  No matter what a fan's perspective is, this is a results driven business.  What I see here is some are questioning why people get re-signed when the results in the W-L column aren't there.  

 

 

Hold up. You are changing the conversation. You said "they basically are out of options and career-minded front office types will not set foot in that organization" and now you are comparing the 32 jobs too eachother. Sure if I get offered the NYR gm versus the Sabres, I take the Rangers but that isn't how it works. There will be like 3 - 5 GM jobs this summer that open. So you don't get to compare it to 32 different spots because you might get offered 1 or 2 if you are the top dog. If I am GM McAwesome and I am looking I might have a couple of offers and once I am gone that job is gone so again there are only 32 jobs and if any of these guys trying to be GM get an offer they take it without another one on the table. Also you ignored ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL of the highly qualified and experienced ppl this org has hired since Adams became GM. For an org that is out of options they certainly have hired some highly qualified and respected ppl. 

Who got re-signed that you are worried about? This sounds like "if I don't see instant results, these ppl aren't the right ppl".

 

1 hour ago, Curt said:

Since Adams took over, he has brought in a group of highly regarded front office personnel.  Jason Karmanos, Sam Ventura, and Domenic Galamini Jr. are the guys I had in mind.  They are experienced guys at the top of their fields of expertise who came from successful organizations and chose to join the Sabres organization.

Bingo

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yet somehow they can’t build a good defense and get even decent goaltending.  

The issue isn’t the staff.  The issue is their boss and his boss.  Winning starts from the top down and until KA properly supports the team and insists on a winning product we won’t have one.  

It’s quite possible that TP has an internal cap and that is a huge limiting factor.  

However the offense is playoff caliber. Maybe it’s time TP took the training wheels off and allows KA to fix the issues on the team to make a playoff run a year ahead of schedule.  

If TP isn’t limiting the payroll maybe it’s time for TP to tell KA to make the appropriate moves to get back to the playoffs.

If TP were limiting the payroll, KA wouldn't have brought in a $2MM per year 4th-liner in Jost, or have attempted to bring in a reclamation project goalie who would've cost between $3.125MM and $6.25MM per year (depending on the amount of salary Ottawa would've retained) in Matt Murray, or have committed to $50MM for TT or $30MM for Mule.

Again, you keep saying KA isn't trying to improve the team because he for some incomprehensible reason refuses to acquire a defenseman or another goalie.  We know that one of KA's core principles is to bring in only guys who want to be here.  Do you have any examples of guys who he could've brought in who would've been happy to come here?

[Sidc3000]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

If TP were limiting the payroll, KA wouldn't have brought in a $2MM per year 4th-liner in Jost, or have attempted to bring in a reclamation project goalie who would've cost between $3.125MM and $6.25MM per year (depending on the amount of salary Ottawa would've retained) in Matt Murray, or have committed to $50MM for TT or $30MM for Mule.

Again, you keep saying KA isn't trying to improve the team because he for some incomprehensible reason refuses to acquire a defenseman or another goalie.  We know that one of KA's core principles is to bring in only guys who want to be here.  Do you have any examples of guys who he could've brought in who would've been happy to come here?

There is a reason why Adams brought in league minimum players last season and it wasn’t because those players he wanted on the team. The pegulas may not be “limiting payroll” but there is no doubt in my mind that they are keeping the purse strings pulled tight. I’m sure Adams doesn’t have free reign and has to justify every single hire he does with the Pegulas. 
 

he also knows that he will have to pay these kids good money in the very near future to keep them on the Sabres. That is why he’s staying at the cap floor. 
 

Until the crowds start to come back and the team starts to turn a profit, they will control the money Adans is spending. The one sure fire way to bring people back to the arena is to win 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Sidc3000

[nfreeman]

14 minutes ago, Sidc3000 said:

There is a reason why Adams brought in league minimum players last season and it wasn’t because those players he wanted on the team. The pegulas may not be “limiting payroll” but there is no doubt in my mind that they are keeping the purse strings pulled tight. I’m sure Adams doesn’t have free reign and has to justify every single hire he does with the Pegulas. 
 

he also knows that he will have to pay these kids good money in the very near future to keep them on the Sabres. That is why he’s staying at the cap floor. 

I agree that KA has a plan for the cap, and that it almost certainly includes big contracts for Cozens and Dahlin next summer.  I also agree that KA needs to discuss and justify his expenditures to TP.  But I also am very confident that if, say, a good goalie or top-4 defenseman, or both, had wanted to join the Sabres last summer at, say, $4MM to $5MM per year, KA would've been able to sign them.

Do you not think so?

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

We know that one of KA's core principles is to bring in only guys who want to be here. 

What does that even mean?  Do they want to be here because it’s the only offer they have, do they want to be here because they think this is their best opportunity in the NHL, or do they want to be here because they want to be part of a rebuild in Buffalo? 
 

It’s also a great excuse for a GM. “I’m sorry I tried but that player didn’t want to be here.”  While it may be true in some cases, UFAs aren’t the only way to acquire talent.  Take the trade market for example.  The vast majority of NHL player don’t have trade protection and for those that do, it’s up to the GM to sell them on his vision and the opportunity.  The are even opportunities in the waiver market (see Reilly).  

Start winning and KA won’t have any problem finding guys who want to be here.

Oh by the way, the Sabres even with Jost’s addition are still spending a league low amount.  Sheehan’s termination saved much of Jost’s contract amount. Also if you take out Bishops contract, the Sabres are still at the cap floor.  In real $ the Sabres are only paying 700K for Bishop’s 4.9 mill cap hit.  

I haven’t done the math yet, but I think we might be just enough over the cap floor to even trade Bishop’s contract to a contender and recover an asset or two.

Edited December 6, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Sidc3000]

6 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I agree that KA has a plan for the cap, and that it almost certainly includes big contracts for Cozens and Dahlin next summer.  I also agree that KA needs to discuss and justify his expenditures to TP.  But I also am very confident that if, say, a good goalie or top-4 defenseman, or both, had wanted to join the Sabres last summer at, say, $4MM to $5MM per year, KA would've been able to sign them.

Do you not think so?

Oh I agree. That was obvious with the Sabres trying to court Murray. The problem they had (and will have going forward) is Murray didn’t want the come to the Sabres. The team is not well respectful throughout the league for obvious reasons. It will take time to prove the front office and team are stable 

[LTS]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

And then there is this. Buffalo's got Don Granato as coach who is highly respected around the league and even though this board has members who love to ignore this, the guy has 20 years of coaching experience. They have an analytics staff that is a who's who of the hockey analytics community. Their agm is well known commodity from a winning org. The goaltending coach likewise comes from 2 different winning orgs. One of their development coaches is one of the most successful undrafted players of the last 20 years.  

And he is part of a well respected hockey family, etc.  The guy is about as "IN" hockey as you can be.

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yet somehow they can’t build a good defense and get even decent goaltending.  

The issue isn’t the staff.  The issue is their boss and his boss.  Winning starts from the top down and until KA properly supports the team and insists on a winning product we won’t have one.  

It’s quite possible that TP has an internal cap and that is a huge limiting factor.  

However the offense is playoff caliber. Maybe it’s time TP took the training wheels off and allows KA to fix the issues on the team to make a playoff run a year ahead of schedule.  

If TP isn’t limiting the payroll maybe it’s time for TP to tell KA to make the appropriate moves to get back to the playoffs.

 

There's a world of difference between can't and won't and even more so between can't and have not yet because that wasn't in the plan. You are imposing your plan onto their plan. It's pointless to do so. Your plan is irrelevant. You can debate whether their plan is the right one, but they absolutely are following their plan. So it's not CAN'T.. it's have not yet.

The discussion of a limited payroll  Where is the basis of it?  If you wanted they could have paid Thompson $13M a year.  Would that have made you happy? They could go potentially go overpay on free agents, how does that EVER work out for teams?

Where are they supposed to spend this money?  Every, single, argument that comes up with regards to this team comes down to "Get a goaltender." And every response is "Who?" and every time.. every, single, time... there isn't one that fits the argument.  The UFA goalies can choose where they want to go and making a trade only works if you have a trade partner, and an option that makes sense.

UFAs don't usually go to young teams that have not established they can win.  Why would they?  Do you think OBJ would have the Bills on his list of teams if this were 7 years ago?  100% not.  It has nothing to do with the city, it has to do with having put in their time in the league and earning the right to control their destiny.  And even UFAs get it wrong.

People keep arguing "Do something." and then conveniently ignore three simple things:

1. In order to do something, there has to be something to do.

2. If there's something to do, it has to be a good hockey move.

3. If it's a good hockey move, it has to fit with the plan.

 

 

[Zamboni]

47 minutes ago, LTS said:

 

People keep arguing "Do something." and then conveniently ignore three simple things:

1. In order to do something, there has to be something to do.

2. If there's something to do, it has to be a good hockey move.

3. If it's a good hockey move, it has to fit with the plan.

 

 

Not to mention ….

4. Their plan or path isn’t your plan or path. Whine/complain about it all you want. Too bad…

5. Plans can change depending on the everchanging info with the roster and staff. Not to mention the record. It’s usually not static.

6. Just because you don’t know what they are doing on an hour to hour basis, doesn’t mean they are doing nothing at all. Although some love to push that false portrayal.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Zamboni

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

What does that even mean?  Do they want to be here because it’s the only offer they have, do they want to be here because they think this is their best opportunity in the NHL, or do they want to be here because they want to be part of a rebuild in Buffalo? 

It’s also a great excuse for a GM. “I’m sorry I tried but that player didn’t want to be here.”  While it may be true in some cases, UFAs aren’t the only way to acquire talent.  Take the trade market for example.  The vast majority of NHL player don’t have trade protection and for those that do, it’s up to the GM to sell them on his vision and the opportunity.  The are even opportunities in the waiver market (see Reilly).  

Start winning and KA won’t have any problem finding guys who want to be here.

Oh by the way, the Sabres even with Jost’s addition are still spending a league low amount.  Sheehan’s termination saved much of Jost’s contract amount. Also if you take out Bishops contract, the Sabres are still at the cap floor.  In real $ the Sabres are only paying 700K for Bishop’s 4.9 mill cap hit.  

I haven’t done the math yet, but I think we might be just enough over the cap floor to even trade Bishop’s contract to a contender and recover an asset or two.

First bolded -- I'm pretty sure it means KA wants guys who are psyched to be members of the Sabres, not guys who reluctantly took the $$ because they had no other options or guys who were traded here against their will.

2nd bolded -- you keep saying this too.  Again, the trade market isn't a magic solution to the "don't want to be here" issue.  KA isn't going to trade for someone who is going to be unhappy if he is traded here.

I agree that if they start winning, more guys will want to be here.  That doesn't mean that trading for guys who don't want to be here will make them start winning.

As for the payroll, I'll ask you the same question I asked SidC:  do you not think that if a good goalie or top-4 defenseman, or both, had wanted to join the Sabres last summer at, say, $4MM to $5MM per year, KA would've signed them?

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

First bolded -- I'm pretty sure it means KA wants guys who are psyched to be members of the Sabres, not guys who reluctantly took the $$ because they had no other options or guys who were traded here against their will.

2nd bolded -- you keep saying this too.  Again, the trade market isn't a magic solution to the "don't want to be here" issue.  KA isn't going to trade for someone who is going to be unhappy if he is traded here.

I agree that if they start winning, more guys will want to be here.  That doesn't mean that trading for guys who don't want to be here will make them start winning.

As for the payroll, I'll ask you the same question I asked SidC:  do you not think that if a good goalie or top-4 defenseman, or both, had wanted to join the Sabres last summer at, say, $4MM to $5MM per year, KA would've signed them?

No I don’t think KA would have signed anyone for the $ you mentioned.  As I wrote earlier I don’t think he had any intention of spending more than a few million over the cap floor at most and even with Jost we are still there.  To some extent I agree with him.  He correctly wants to leave cap space to sign his core to decent deals.  Mule and TNT’s deals are the first steps toward that goal.  However that doesn’t preclude making positive moves while he has excess cap space.  

As to the trade market, some guys think X and then get traded here and learn what a great place WNY is and then want to stay.  Do you really think Marino wanted to get traded to NJ? Do you think he is happy he did now? Winning cures many ills.  I think it’s pretty clear Buffalo is building something good.  If we acquire a top 4 D or even a reliable 5/6 D to help our depth and provide mentorship to the young guys, that guy will be happy to stay and help.  While he wasn’t traded for, do you think Anderson was happy he signed here and was thrilled to return a second year?  Sometimes you just have to take a risk as a GM.  So far I just don’t see that in KA.  

Eisenhower famously said (i’m paraphrasing) that a plan is worthless, but planning is indispensable.  In many ways I agree with KA’s plan.  I agree he should retain cap space to sign his core like he did with Mule and TNT.  However, Eisenhower wanted his commanders to be flexible as new information came in.  So how does that apply here?  The Sabres are on pace to score over 300 goals for the first time since they won the President’s Cup 15 years ago. This offense is probably a year ahead of schedule from the plan.  Unfortunately they are also on a pace to give up over 300 goals.  This is actually worse than last year despite the additions of Bush and Comrie.  I think this is where KA should be flexible.  Some smart additions could help reduce the goals against.  If they can cut down about 40 goals against (going from the current 3.68 ga down to 3) KA could get this team back into the playoff hunt for this season.  Unfortunately I just don’t see him being flexible enough to deviate from the plan and I think it’s a critical mistake.  The more these kids learn about winning now, the better off they’ll be long-term.  

Some have written it takes two to tango.  While accurate, there are guys available who would help.  Some the price maybe to high right now like Chychrun or Boesser while others have been available for little or now cost to acquire like Baer and Reilly. I honestly believe there is some reasonable help available.  We just need KA to try. 

The goal should be winning now.  We have the offense to do that now, KA needs to help get us there now.

Edited December 6, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[nfreeman]

25 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No I don’t think KA would have signed anyone for the $ you mentioned.  To some extent I agree with him.  He correctly wants to leave cap space to sign his core to decent deals.  Mule and TNT’s deals are the first steps toward that goal.  However that doesn’t preclude making positive moves while he has excess cap space.  

As to the trade market, some guys think X and then get traded here and learn what a great place WNY is and then want to stay.  Do you really think Marino wanted to get traded to NJ? Do you think he is happy he did now? Winning cures many ills.  I think it’s pretty clear Buffalo is building something good.  If we acquire a top 4 D or even a reliable 5/6 D to help our depth and provide mentorship to the young guys, that guy will be happy to stay and help.  While he wasn’t traded for, do you think Anderson was happy he signed here and was thrilled to return a second year?  Sometimes you just have to take a risk as a GM.  So far I just don’t see that in KA. 

First bolded -- then why did he try to trade for Matt Murray, who, as noted upthread, makes $6.25MM per year (Ottawa retained 25% when they traded him to Toronto, so Toronto is on the hook for $4.6875MM per year)?

2nd bolded -- this is just assuming away the issue by assuming a happy ending.  IMHO, the Sabres have had enough disgruntled players here, in full view of KA, for KA to reasonably decide that the wrong attitude about being here is a deal-breaker.  You are of course free to disagree.

3rd bolded -- I don't see how Anderson supports your view.  Anderson originally signed here as a vet minimum UFA.  Obviously he was happy to be here.  That's an entirely different situation from trading for someone who is unhappy about being forced to be here against his will.

4th bolded -- was trading for Matt Murray at a high cash and cap hit, after 3 crappy seasons and 2 teams giving up on him, not taking a risk?  What about committing long-term and large dollars to TT and Mule after a half-season of strong play?

[GASabresIUFAN]

40 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

First bolded -- then why did he try to trade for Matt Murray, who, as noted upthread, makes $6.25MM per year (Ottawa retained 25% when they traded him to Toronto, so Toronto is on the hook for $4.6875MM per year)?

2nd bolded -- this is just assuming away the issue by assuming a happy ending.  IMHO, the Sabres have had enough disgruntled players here, in full view of KA, for KA to reasonably decide that the wrong attitude about being here is a deal-breaker.  You are of course free to disagree.

3rd bolded -- I don't see how Anderson supports your view.  Anderson originally signed here as a vet minimum UFA.  Obviously he was happy to be here.  That's an entirely different situation from trading for someone who is unhappy about being forced to be here against his will.

4th bolded -- was trading for Matt Murray at a high cash and cap hit, after 3 crappy seasons and 2 teams giving up on him, not taking a risk?  What about committing long-term and large dollars to TT and Mule after a half-season of strong play?

Honestly I think the attempt was two fold.  One because our goalie coach had had experience with Murray and my guess is he told KA that could fix the problems.  If Bales was right (which it appears Murray was fixable) and Murray came, that would have solidified for years to come and allowed time for Levi to develop properly.  The second was Murray would have helped get us to the cap floor.  Murray had already acquired Bishop's contract as insurance, but had Murray come, my guess is KA would have traded the Bishop contract to someone else.  

My point on Anderson was that he decided to stay.  He could have retired, but instead re-signed.   As to re-signing a traded for player, it's not wishing for a happy ending.  It happens all the time in the NHL in markets worse than ours.  Regardless, it's a risk worth taking.  These guys, for the most part, are professionals and want to win where they are at.  Berglund situations are incredibly rare.  For guys on expiring contracts, they want to play the best they can to get another deal. 

We are also not talking about the long-term.  We are talking about taking a risk now, to fix this year's team because it is worth fixing. 

[Brawndo]

Some tidbits.

Murray is actually owed 15 Million over the final two years of His Deal so 11.25 Million would have been paid by the Sabres. 
They called about John Gibson who has five years including this one at 6.4 Million AAV left, He said no. I believe The Pegulas will spend but it has make sense. 

Sam Ventura was the primary reason the Penguins drafted John Marino and Samuelsson’s New Deal is based on His Contract. The Sabres had to be in on trade talks for Him. I imagine the story of Ryan Johnson having 30 minutes to decide to sign His ELC with a potential trade partner with the Sabres was with Pittsburgh. Jokiharju or Bryson didn’t move the needle as much as Ty Smith did. 

Karmanos was called by Rutherford about the Canucks GM Job and declined. 
 

 

 

[7+6=13]

11 hours ago, LTS said:

 

There's a world of difference between can't and won't and even more so between can't and have not yet because that wasn't in the plan. You are imposing your plan onto their plan. It's pointless to do so. Your plan is irrelevant. You can debate whether their plan is the right one, but they absolutely are following their plan. So it's not CAN'T.. it's have not yet.

The discussion of a limited payroll  Where is the basis of it?  If you wanted they could have paid Thompson $13M a year.  Would that have made you happy? They could go potentially go overpay on free agents, how does that EVER work out for teams?

Where are they supposed to spend this money?  Every, single, argument that comes up with regards to this team comes down to "Get a goaltender." And every response is "Who?" and every time.. every, single, time... there isn't one that fits the argument.  The UFA goalies can choose where they want to go and making a trade only works if you have a trade partner, and an option that makes sense.

UFAs don't usually go to young teams that have not established they can win.  Why would they?  Do you think OBJ would have the Bills on his list of teams if this were 7 years ago?  100% not.  It has nothing to do with the city, it has to do with having put in their time in the league and earning the right to control their destiny.  And even UFAs get it wrong.

People keep arguing "Do something." and then conveniently ignore three simple things:

1. In order to do something, there has to be something to do.

2. If there's something to do, it has to be a good hockey move.

3. If it's a good hockey move, it has to fit with the plan.

 

 

You said this perfectly.   

[Taro T]

15 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Some tidbits.

Murray is actually owed 15 Million over the final two years of His Deal so 11.25 Million would have been paid by the Sabres. 
They called about John Gibson who has five years including this one at 6.4 Million AAV left, He said no. I believe The Pegulas will spend but it has make sense. 

Sam Ventura was the primary reason the Penguins drafted John Marino and Samuelsson’s New Deal is based on His Contract. The Sabres had to be in on trade talks for Him. I imagine the story of Ryan Johnson having 30 minutes to decide to sign His ELC with a potential trade partner with the Sabres was with Pittsburgh. Jokiharju or Bryson didn’t move the needle as much as Ty Smith did. 

Karmanos was called by Rutherford about the Canucks GM Job and declined. 
 

 

 

Very interesting stuff.  Thanks for sharing. 🍻