Doesn't sound like losing is accepted

[Taro T]

41 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Okay, sort of a middle ground position. I can accept that view. Makes ti harder to know where people stand but it's a reasonable way of looking at it. If that's your view I think I'd probably still see you as an optimist though. 

Fair enough.  

But really don't see a need to move everyone into Team Stormcloud & Team Sunshine & Kittens.  

[Sidc3000]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Yes, Adams is taking is a different approach.  A slower approach - and it is on top of Regier's failure to retool, Murray's failure to rebuild (and he added more cultural destruction), and Boterill's failure to do whatever it was he was trying to do.   So, Adams has 10 years of very bad stuff to erase.  

Look back to 2012, the short season (Ruff was fired), when we fell to last place in the division.   Then look at the teams down in the standing with us across the whole league over the next few years.  Since that year and on, we been sucking and tanking, and still sucking.  We have seen many other teams rebuild since 2012.   Some have rebuilt and dropped down and retooled again.  Some have challenged for a cup and are still challenging.  Several former bottom feeder teams have won the cup.  Just this year we see that New Jersey has past us and even Detroit is at least competing for a playoff spot.   We are sitting in the bottom 8 of 32 teams while the two expansion teams are in the top 6.  I know that you know all of this.  

It is hard to expect the majority of fans to understand or be sympathetic.  This is a historic failure never before seen in the NHL.  Not every fan is as dedicated as we are on Sabrespace.   We are mutant Sabres fans and even many here are fed up.  

The fan base frustration is not misplaced just because most of them don't know the nuances of what Adams is trying to do.    It all about results and the results are not there yet.   When the Bills were rebuilding McDermott did not accept losing, even during the fast teardown/rebuild.  He said these things over and over again - "this is a result driven league" and "we have to earn the right to win" and "we have to establish a winning culture" and "we want players to come here to be the best versions of themselves".   

Contrast that with the Sabres messaging:  expect to suffer, lose on purpose, hire unproven people with little experience, trade our best players and start over, don't block prospects that aren't even here, veteran players don't want to come here, etc ... 

Sabres fans are sick of the bad culture, the jokes, the fact that NHL players openly state they do not want to come here.  They are sick of losing and not competing.  

At last Adams is openly stating what the plan is and that they are working to change the culture and build from within.  That is a start.  That is why I am still behind him.  I am giving him 4 years to make this team a playoff team.   He punched the clock on June 16, 2020.  

 

Thank you for articulating my feelings & thoughts better than I did. Great analogy with McDermott.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

21 hours ago, Pimlach said:

At least Adams is openly stating what the plan is and that they are working to change the culture and build from within.  That is a start.  That is why I am still behind him.  I am giving him 4 years to make this team a playoff team.   He punched the clock on June 16, 2020.  

Reasonable argument, except the team has to show improvement this season to justify keeping this failing plan in place.  We currently sit in 26th place in the NHL. Last season we finished 24th and that team had JAGs like Hayden, Eakin, Bjork, Jankowski, Pysyk, Hagg, Butcher, Anderson , Dell and Tokarski playing regular shifts.  

We moved on from that pile for garbage, added 3 excellent rookies, but somehow got worse overall.  Ultimately, it’s because management wasn’t committed to solving the obvious flaws on the team on defense and in goal. The bandaids he signed in those areas, Comrie and Lyubushkin have played like JAGs or worse with bigger paychecks. He left the NHL D depth to two former prospects who are like the guys they replaced, awful.  He also left goaltending depth to bust prospect UPL and the oft injured AAAA Subban. That is a firm commitment to losing and it’s not acceptable, especially when you consider that are not any viable near ready NHL prospects at either position.   

Edited December 4, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

58 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Reasonable argument, except the team has to show improvement this season to justify keeping this failing plan in place.  We currently sit in 26th place in the NHL. Last season we finished 24th and that team had JAGs like Hayden, Eakin, Bjork, Jankowski, Pysyk, Hagg, Butcher, Anderson , Dell and Tokarski playing regular shifts.  

We moved on from that pile for garbage, added 3 excellent rookies, but somehow got worse overall.  Ultimately, it’s because management wasn’t committed to solving the obvious flaws on the team on defense and in goal. The bandaids he signed in those areas, Comrie and Lyubushkin have played like JAGs or worse with bigger paychecks. He left the NHL D depth to two former prospects who are like the guys they replaced, awful.  He also left goaltending depth to bust prospect UPL and the oft injured AAAA Subban. That is a firm commitment to losing and it’s not acceptable, especially when you consider that are not viable near ready NHL prospects at either position.   

We'll finish above last year. The corner is being turned as we speak. 

[pi2000]

Sure losing isn't accepted, but the bar is set too low imho.   Losing is definitely tolerated, otherwise there would've been drastic lineup changes during the losing streak.

[Sidc3000]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

Sure losing isn't accepted, but the bar is set too low imho.   Losing is definitely tolerated, otherwise there would've been drastic lineup changes during the losing streak.

True. Unlike the Bills where losing was never acceptable and I think that was the difference with how quickly the Bills turned it around. 

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

We'll finish above last year. The corner is being turned as we speak. 

🤔 we’ll see about that

[Buffalonill]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

We'll finish above last year. The corner is being turned as we speak. 

[LTS]

25 minutes ago, Sidc3000 said:

True. Unlike the Bills where losing was never acceptable and I think that was the difference with how quickly the Bills turned it around. 

🤔 we’ll see about that

And yet another comparison that has no place... football and hockey are completely different due to contract structures, drafting, etc. 

[pi2000]

Just now, LTS said:

And yet another comparison that has no place... football and hockey are completely different due to contract structures, drafting, etc. 

Sure, but the standard was always "playoff caliber" and "earning the right to win" as soon as McD took over.    Anyone not buying in was quickly eliminated and after a couple of solid drafts they suddenly started winning. 

I've never once heard Adams or Granato mention winning as a priority. They're focused on individual player development as the number one priority.    At some point that needs to translate to wins and setting team goals such as making the playoffs.    There needs to be consequences for losing. 

[Zamboni]

18 minutes ago, LTS said:

And yet another comparison that has no place... football and hockey are completely different due to contract structures, drafting, etc. 

true… and yet, it will never not be compared.

[Sidc3000]

58 minutes ago, LTS said:

And yet another comparison that has no place... football and hockey are completely different due to contract structures, drafting, etc. 

so its ok to accept losing in the NHL? My comment had absolutely nothing to do with contract structure, draft, etc 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Sidc3000

[Sidc3000]

1 hour ago, pi2000 said:

I've never once heard Adams or Granato mention winning as a priority. They're focused on individual player development as the number one priority.    At some point that needs to translate to wins and setting team goals such as making the playoffs.    There needs to be consequences for losing. 

Nope there shouldn’t be any consequences for losing in the NHL. According to some, its full acceptable for a NHL team to lose

Edited December 4, 2022 by Sidc3000

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, LTS said:

And yet another comparison that has no place... football and hockey are completely different due to contract structures, drafting, etc. 

Too easy of a cop out.   The timelines to turn it around are certainly different, and hockey takes longer, but the approach to establishing a winning mindset can be the same.    Adams is taking pages from the Bills on the later.  That is a Big Plus that he gets over Boterill and Murray.   Developing talent is great, get the right kind of players - even better.  Now can we start emphasizing the winning part.  Stop the coach-speak after a loss that indicates winning is not the first priority.  

Edited December 4, 2022 by Pimlach

[Sidc3000]

4 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Too easy of a cop out.   The timelines to turn it around are certainly different, and hockey takes longer, but the approach to establishing a winning mindset can be the same.    Adams is taking pages from the Bills on the later.  That is a Big Plus that he gets over Boterill and Murray.   Developing talent is great, get the right kind of players - even better.  Now can we start emphasizing the winning part.  Stop the coach-speak after a loss that indicates winning is not the first priority.  

Imo, the #1 priority of any professional sports team should be to win. You can prioritize player development also but if these highly competitive athletes don’t prioritize winning then what good are they? We’ve seen what not prioritizing winning is like the last couple seasons. 

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Sure, but the standard was always "playoff caliber" and "earning the right to win" as soon as McD took over.    Anyone not buying in was quickly eliminated and after a couple of solid drafts they suddenly started winning. 

I've never once heard Adams or Granato mention winning as a priority. They're focused on individual player development as the number one priority.    At some point that needs to translate to wins and setting team goals such as making the playoffs.    There needs to be consequences for losing. 

Don't forget what they tell players not on the team - "come to Buffalo to be the best version of yourself"  

In other words "we want family oriented, community-oriented players who love to play, want to be great, and want to win.  Join us and help us get there.   Be part of something special".  Beane even markets the fan base when he recruits players.  

The thing that saddens me most about the Sabres is not the losing (that is a close second), it is the soiled reputation that the organization and city have because of the clown show that has been going on for far too long.  So many players want to stay far away from it.   That hurts because this city can be a great hockey town.  We have seen it before.  

Edited December 4, 2022 by Pimlach

[Pimlach]

6 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Reasonable argument, except the team has to show improvement this season to justify keeping this failing plan in place.  We currently sit in 26th place in the NHL. Last season we finished 24th and that team had JAGs like Hayden, Eakin, Bjork, Jankowski, Pysyk, Hagg, Butcher, Anderson , Dell and Tokarski playing regular shifts.  

We moved on from that pile for garbage, added 3 excellent rookies, but somehow got worse overall.  Ultimately, it’s because management wasn’t committed to solving the obvious flaws on the team on defense and in goal. The bandaids he signed in those areas, Comrie and Lyubushkin have played like JAGs or worse with bigger paychecks. He left the NHL D depth to two former prospects who are like the guys they replaced, awful.  He also left goaltending depth to bust prospect UPL and the oft injured AAAA Subban. That is a firm commitment to losing and it’s not acceptable, especially when you consider that are not any viable near ready NHL prospects at either position.   

There is still time to improve upon last year but they need to change the damn tone that comes out of the locker room after losses. Starting with the coach and GM.  

So far Comrie has been what he was before, a backup.  Only now he is a backup behind a younger defense that got hit with a major rash of injuries.  This hurt Comrie's chances to play like a 1 (which he isn't).  

Looby was playing good hockey until the injury(s).   He brings some snarl that we needed.   He is a guy that could be a good 6 for right now.  Trade some of the wealth in forwards for a top 4 defenseman, push Joker to the third paring with Looby.   This will help a lot.  

 

[Sidc3000]

12 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Don't forget what they tell players not on the team - "come to Buffalo to be the best version of yourself"  

In other words "we want family oriented, community-oriented players who love to play, want to great, and want to win.  Join us and help us get there.   Be part of something special".  Beane even markets the fan base when he recruits players.  

The thing that saddens me most about the Sabres is not the losing (that is a close second), it is the soiled reputation that the organization and city have because of the clown show that has been going on for far too long.  So many players want to stay far away from it.   That hurts because this city can be a great hockey town.  We have seen it before.  

Hopefully that will start changing with Adams in charge 🤞. As long as the Pegula’s don’t to continue to change coaching and GM’s as often as they change underwear. The Pegulas need to “trust the process” also and let Adams plan play out. 
 

I just don’t know how long you let it play out if things don’t continue to get better 

Edited December 4, 2022 by Sidc3000

[Pimlach]

8 minutes ago, Sidc3000 said:

Hopefully that will start changing with Adams in charge 🤞. As long as the Pegula’s don’t to continue to change coaching and GM’s as often as they change underwear. The Pegulas need to “trust the process” also and let Adams plan play out. 
 

I just don’t know how long you let it play out if things don’t continue to go up. 

I think that Adams is safe because the Pegula's do like him and trust him.    He carried out their major cost cutting requests when Covid hit and their businesses were struggling.  He did what Boterill would not do.   Their yacht lifestyle was preserved, and the team (including the front office and Rochester) was gutted and re-conditioned.  I like the changes.   We have some proven talented guys in the FO with Karmanos, Ventura, Forton, etc.   I am less sure about the coaching staff just yet - they seem to think they can "turn on" winning when the pieces come together.  We shall see.  

The Pegula's know what good looks like; they just don't know how to find it in the hockey world.   Adams will get a fair chance and if he succeeds there is room to promote him to Pres and promote Karmanos to GM - let them build for the long haul.  They are positioned to reward success, assuming they can attain it.  

[Marvin]

Could some post Mittlestadt's and Olofsson's advanced stats from last year?  My memory is that they were better but have regressed.

[Sidc3000]

10 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I think that Adams is safe because the Pegula's do like him and trust him.    He carried out their major cost cutting requests when Covid hit and their businesses were struggling.  He did what Boterill would not do.   Their yacht lifestyle was preserved, and the team (including the front office and Rochester) was gutted and re-conditioned.  I like the changes.   We have some proven talented guys in the FO with Karmanos, Ventura, Forton, etc.   I am less sure about the coaching staff just yet - they seem to think they can "turn on" winning when the pieces come together.  We shall see.  

The Pegula's know what good looks like; they just don't know how to find it in the hockey world.   Adams will get a fair chance and if he succeeds there is room to promote him to Pres and promote Karmanos to GM - let them build for the long haul.  They are positioned to reward success, assuming they can attain it.  

Adams definitely proved his loyalty to the Pegula’s and that will carry him farther if things don’t go as planned. 
 

Will keeping Adams In place for a while show the league there is some stability in Buffalo? 🤷‍♂️ Time will tell 

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, Sidc3000 said:

Adams definitely proved his loyalty to the Pegula’s and that will carry him farther if things don’t go as planned. 
 

Will keeping Adams In place for a while show the league there is some stability in Buffalo? 🤷‍♂️ Time will tell 

Winning organizations do not change their FO very often.   Talented people, stability, and freedom to innovate are needed to reach organizational goals.    

Using the Bills as an example.  They lost Asst GM Schen and OC Daboll due to their success.   They promoted from within to reward success and to keep continuity (stability), and they also added new outside talent to keep installing new and fresh perspectives.  

Edited December 4, 2022 by Pimlach

[LTS]

On 12/4/2022 at 10:02 AM, pi2000 said:

Sure, but the standard was always "playoff caliber" and "earning the right to win" as soon as McD took over.    Anyone not buying in was quickly eliminated and after a couple of solid drafts they suddenly started winning. 

I've never once heard Adams or Granato mention winning as a priority. They're focused on individual player development as the number one priority.    At some point that needs to translate to wins and setting team goals such as making the playoffs.    There needs to be consequences for losing. 

Yep.. the owner came in and wanted to win right away. He tried that strategy.. failed. So the turnaround time elongated. He tried another strategy and failed. He tried a third.. and failed. Each all playing into the time it takes to get to this point.

Now they are trying a different strategy that relies upon a multi-year plan. The plan includes a focus on winning, but it also includes putting a team together that grows into that focus. They are not at the win at all costs stage, or even manipulate the roster to win stage. They are at the development stage. No one is going anywhere yet.

At some point they will, at some point that plan will be evaluated against the results and someone will make a decision. As you say, at some point... and the key is, that point is not now.  They're not even trying to hide from that and yet people want to tear them down.

But, going back to football.. if you failed 3 times in football you could at least still turn things around in 1-2 seasons.  Not so much with hockey.

 

[grinreaper]

8 hours ago, LTS said:

Yep.. the owner came in and wanted to win right away. He tried that strategy.. failed. So the turnaround time elongated. He tried another strategy and failed. He tried a third.. and failed. Each all playing into the time it takes to get to this point.

Now they are trying a different strategy that relies upon a multi-year plan. The plan includes a focus on winning, but it also includes putting a team together that grows into that focus. They are not at the win at all costs stage, or even manipulate the roster to win stage. They are at the development stage. No one is going anywhere yet.

At some point they will, at some point that plan will be evaluated against the results and someone will make a decision. As you say, at some point... and the key is, that point is not now.  They're not even trying to hide from that and yet people want to tear them down.

But, going back to football.. if you failed 3 times in football you could at least still turn things around in 1-2 seasons.  Not so much with hockey.

 

It's no big news to knowledgeable hockey fans but NHL teams draft kids who have been playing against other kids albeit talented kids with a certain degree of uncertainty. Some people might call the NHL draft an educated crap shoot. These kids, with the possible exception of the few at the top of the draft may take several years to develop their game, physical strength and mental maturity. They generally go from juniors or college to the AHL and maybe never leave Europe until they come to North America to play professionally. Foreign draftees often might need to learn the English language. Again, NHL teams rarely draft someone who can play right away and when they do they are going to be learning on the job in the NHL. NFL draftees have spent their development time in college programs which act as the NFL's farm teams and pretty much prepare those players drafted in the first few rounds to be able to make the NFL rosters. If a good or great player in his Junior or Senior year at a competitive school gets drafted there is a good chance that by his second year in the NFL he can make a difference. NHL teams seem to place a higher degree of importance on making sure that their draftees get developed at levels 2-3 lower than the NHL. Very few of the players that aren't in the top couple rounds end up making the NHL, or if they do, they are marginal players. General Managers in all professional sports need to have a multi year plan for their organization. Due to the uncertainty of drafting such young prospects an NHL GM is most likely going to miss on a higher percentage of prospects than what happens in other sports. The sports that draft players that are young men have the advantage of obtaining people who will fit their systems and culture. If they decide to change schemes they can make that change with compatible players in a relatively short period of time. NHL teams do not have that luxury. Simply put, not only are the GM's not sure of what they have in their pipeline but those players may not even develop into something they can use at the NHL level. Changing GM's, coaches and systems have a cost on a franchise that may not be easy to calculate but slows down the progress of that franchise. If it is done a few times in a decade or so then most likely that franchise is going to have a lot of issues to overcome. The most important thing a team can do is to pick a realistic plan that will get them where they want to go in the time that they need to get there and then stick to that plan. Management can make moves that were not planned but only if they fit into their overall plan. Sitting up in the orange seats it appears as if the Sabres are determined to follow a plan. In the last many years they usurped whatever their plans were by taking shortcuts that not only didn't help but set them back. 

I am a fan that hates to lose but I think I have a pretty good idea of the Sabres rebuild plan. I root for them to win but get pleasure out of seeing the team's development and the progress of the individual players. The Bolts and Avs games recently showed that the players could compete on the same or even better level with them 5 on 5. What was apparent was that the Sabre's special teams and goaltending need a good deal of improvement. At this stage, viewing a game based on judging progress is a good alternative to kicking the dog if they lose.

[SabresVet]

On 12/4/2022 at 1:02 PM, Sidc3000 said:

Adams definitely proved his loyalty to the Pegula’s and that will carry him farther if things don’t go as planned. 
 

Will keeping Adams In place for a while show the league there is some stability in Buffalo? 🤷‍♂️ Time will tell 

After the front office turmoil from 2012-2020 (Ruff to Botterill and everything in between) where else do the Pegula's go for a GM?  They'll ride it out with Adams because they basically are out of options and career-minded front office types will not set foot in that organization without demanding absolute control.  I seriously doubt ownership will authorize that in the wake of previous president/GM hires.  

Buffalo absolutely cannot be a 75-80 point team this season and it be considered progress.  Youth or no youth, the wins have to start coming more often. 

[Curt]

5 hours ago, SabresVet said:

After the front office turmoil from 2012-2020 (Ruff to Botterill and everything in between) where else do the Pegula's go for a GM?  They'll ride it out with Adams because they basically are out of options and career-minded front office types will not set foot in that organization without demanding absolute control.  I seriously doubt ownership will authorize that in the wake of previous president/GM hires.  

Buffalo absolutely cannot be a 75-80 point team this season and it be considered progress.  Youth or no youth, the wins have to start coming more often. 

I disagree with this.  I don’t think there is any evidence to support it.  In the past 1-2 years Buffalo has hired experienced, highly regarded people to work in the front office.