Mittelstadt, Olofsson and the 3rd and 4th Lines

[nfreeman]

32 minutes ago, Taro T said:

You want to know what the difference was in why those lines respectively looked better & a little worse overall in this game than in previous games?

It's USAGE.  The Mittelstadt line only got caught against the McKinnon line for part of 1 shift.  They looked good against the Avs 4th line.  And that was pretty much who they were out against exclusively.  They also got to start the 1st PP before they'd even taken a shift.  Mittelstadt & Olofsson were in their comfort zone and played w/ less (no?) hesitation when their line finally got a shift 7 or so minutes into the game.  They also never had an icing go against them but even drew 1 or 2.  That's huge.  Didn't notice them against Compher's line at all & only caught very brief stints against that top line.  Had they been on for an icing, they would definitely faced one of those lines fresh off a rest while they wee at the end of a shift.

Cozens line, w/ the possible exception of the shift Peterka got that glorious goal (great look by Quinn to see how open he was), was fed nearly exclusively the Compher line & on occassion the McKinnon line too.  And often it was w/ Pilut & Fitzgerald behind them.  Considering who they were up against, they played really well.  And the Avs #2 line is waaay better than Detroit's.  (Heck, IMHO, it is better than Detroit's top line.)

Until 4 games ago, Mitts was getting the usage Cozens line is now getting & Cozens line was getting mainly 3rd & 2nd line opponents.  (Okposo's line seemed to split between 4th line & top line.)

It's part of why this guy isn't as down on Mitts as everybody else.  His getting tougher usage helped build up the confidence of that Cozterkinn line.  Now that his confidence is shot, HE'S getting lighter usage.  They play a relatively weak set of opponents soon.  Expect all 4 lines to start/continue to click.  Again, darn shame that Comrie is broken because he & Anderson could get results like they had in October through this stretch.  Not convinced UPL & Andy can, but am hoping.  (UPL needs something to get his head on straight.  Maybe this will be that something.)  And really hoping that Granato starts having them play a little more responsibly over this next stretch.  They SHOULD be able to do so w/out tanking the offense.

Good stuff here.  I did notice that Cozens' line was out frequently vs Compher's line and frequently got the worse of it.

I don't doubt that DG gave Mitts favorable matchups, but I also think Krebs was better last night than Aspy or Vinnie was on Mitts' line during the past few games.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Isn't there something wrong with having to feed your kid line to Compher so that your more veteran line gets a lighter assignment?

If we are going to get the most out of Mitts and VO while they are still here, DG is going to have to take a page from Lindy Ruff's coaching book and assign them a player like Girgensons who is willing to forecheck and be physical on the back end.  

Edited December 2, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Quint]

I think Mittlestadt is/was Dahlin's roommate and he appears to be very popular on the team. He was an 8th overall draft choice and so far, he has really underachieved. I think as a player he is limited to offense, and even then, sporadically. When I heard he couldn't do even one pull-up in his first training camp, I didn't think he was even an NHL player. Has he become stronger? I don't know. Then there has been injuries. I think we need to trade Mittlestadt.

Olofsson as a 7th rounder is an overachiever but appears to be a one trick pony. Reminds me a bit of Alex Kotalik. He has a spectacular shot and that's hard to find.  There's a use for him on the pp although it appears that Cozens has now taken over his spot on the first pp for now. Could he become a shootout/pp specialist like Kotalik? The Sabres aren't in a lot of shootouts so that has limited use. I like overachievers and hope they can keep him around somehow.

Asplund seems to be invisible on most nights, especially on offense. Not sure what to do with him except I think he belongs on the fourth line as a defensive specialist. 

Further, I can't wait until Okposo and Girgensons leave. They've had their moments but they've been part of the losing mentality of this team and I'd like to clear space for more youts and/or trade pickups. Okposo especially seems to have fallen off the table this year.

And then you see guys like Compher, Rodrigues and Hagel, who the Sabres gave up on, turn into stars. You can't worry about letting someone go and then have them mesh with a happening team in this league and suddenly becoming a factor, but I worry anyway. We've had a tire fire here for too long and still need a lot of roster adjustments. Then again, the Sabres are the youngest team in the league...

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

@JohnC, good one!  

I didn't intend to be cute with the misspelling. But I'll take credit for that accident and claim it to be an unintended witticism. 🤡

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Good stuff here.  I did notice that Cozens' line was out frequently vs Compher's line and frequently got the worse of it.

I don't doubt that DG gave Mitts favorable matchups, but I also think Krebs was better last night than Aspy or Vinnie was on Mitts' line during the past few games.

And Krebs is a better all around player than either Hinostroza or Asplund, so while with the way Krebs had been playing it's mildly surprising, but not shocking.

Thing is, while people have been very displeased w/ playing the Mittelstadt line as the 2nd line (which again ended 4 games ago), there was IMHO a method to the madness.  This team, earlier in the year didn't have ANY line except the Thompson line that could handle 2nd line usage & they were kind of busy being a 1st line.  They experimented around w/ a few things, but really didn't come up w/ a good 2nd line by usage.  So, Mitts, Olofsson, & whomever became the 2nd line by default to let the others do their thing.

They eventually got to reuniting Quinn & Peterka and giving them Cozens as a C.  The way things went last year in Ra-cha-cha, they caught something w / Jack & JJ and believe they were hoping/expecting to get those 2 together at some point once they were acclimatized to the NHL.  Wouldn't be at all surprised if Cozens is they guy they envisioned with them all along, but that's speculation.   They were getting sheltered 3rd line minutes and in fairly short order started thriving.

Either because they were thriving or because the Mitts line wasn't, they've decided to give them the harder minutes.  Cozens was thrown into that last year against McDavid and did exceptionally well, so they're seeing what he & his linemates can do.

In that 1st game as the 3rd line, Mitts & company were outplayed by the 4th line & now are the 4th line.  This last game, they did well in that role & were treated as a true 4th line.  2 of the players got a lot of specialty time (PP) & the kid (Krebs) got easy minutes and an opportunity to focus on very few things & get some success.

They've tried to use the Jost line as the 4th line, IMHO to see if Mitts, VO, & Asplund or other could be the 2nd or 3rd line with a strong 2 way showing going forward.  It would make decisions easier for next season as am expecting they're planning on having 3 of Savoie, Kulich, Rosen, Rousek, &/or other joining the parent club.  If Mitts & company can do the job, then if Okposo, Hinostroza, &/or Girgensons are brought back it is in more of a Vinny role (13th F rather than a leadership role or as the vet leading a kid line w/ sonebody rotating in and out) as the other 3 lines are solidified & the kids get sheltered usage.  If they can't get it done, they likely get traded for what they can bring & Adams is looking to the outside for 2 more useful forwards in addition to a G & a D (or 2) and there's a strong likelihood Okposo & Gurgensons are depended upon again next year as the team's checkers.  (Don't agree w/ going all in on youth - but it seems the direction.  And if Mitts & crew right the ship, could see a really young team next year.  In which case they probably start legitimately entering the trade market the following year.  If they don't, it's this season.)

Dropping Mitts & crew to the 4th line is giving them a chance to get their games rolling again & hopefully to bounce them back to the 3rd line by usage.  Maybe even into a hybrid 2/3 if they solidify enough as had been happening very early on w/ Mitts' & Cozens' lines being sort of interchangeable there.

The other thing interesting about last night is it was the 1st time (or 1st time in a while) Mitts was used at W rather than C.  In the offseason, both he & Granato spoke a lot about moving him to W this year.  Wondering if he'd kind of prepared himself for that heading into the year & actually is, at this point, more comfortable there than at C.  At C, he tends this year to drive things to the boards.  Last night, he was driving things to the middle again.  1st time it was noticeable in a while.  EVERYTHING was going outside.

Have more speculation about this stuff but that's more than enough for now.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Taro T

[LTS]

14 minutes ago, Quint said:

Further, I can't wait until Okposo and Girgensons leave. They've had their moments but they've been part of the losing mentality of this team and I'd like to clear space for more youts and/or trade pickups. Okposo especially seems to have fallen off the table this year.

And then you see guys like Compher, Rodrigues and Hagel, who the Sabres gave up on, turn into stars. You can't worry about letting someone go and then have them mesh with a happening team in this league and suddenly becoming a factor, but I worry anyway. We've had a tire fire here for too long and still need a lot of roster adjustments. Then again, the Sabres are the youngest team in the league...

Okposo and Girgensons were here during losing years I think it's a bit unfair to say they have a losing mentality. Okposo definitely does not look as good but I think that's also partially because he's not being used as he has in the past. He's firmly rooted to the line he's on and so his production will not be as good as it was in the past. He's doing what he needs to do, but he's no longer (if ever was) worth his contract.

Rodrigues is a star? Is this the same player who hasn't been re-signed by the teams he's played on over the past few years? I wouldn't consider Compher or Hagel stars either.  They are all 3rd/4th line players.

Hagel didn't even make it with the second team he was with.

The team isn't supposed to be playoff ready yet. I think they are where they thought they would be, given what the plan was.

[Buffalonill]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Waived?   That would be wasteful.

 

He has some trade value, at least in a package deal.   

Hes been in the nhl for 6 years highest point total is 25 points i dont think hes worth anything. 

 

But thats just me

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Quint said:

I think Mittlestadt is/was Dahlin's roommate and he appears to be very popular on the team. He was an 8th overall draft choice and so far, he has really underachieved. I think as a player he is limited to offense, and even then, sporadically. When I heard he couldn't do even one pull-up in his first training camp, I didn't think he was even an NHL player. Has he become stronger? I don't know. Then there has been injuries. I think we need to trade Mittlestadt.

This is not factual. He didnt do a pullup at the combine and then after a chiropractor adjustment at U of Minn. was able to do pullups. It is also highly irrelevant 6 years later. 

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

 

Dropping Mitts & crew to the 4th line is giving them a chance to get their games rolling again & hopefully to bounce them back to the 3rd line by usage.  Maybe even into a hybrid 2/3 if they solidify enough as had been happening very early on w/ Mitts' & Cozens' lines being sort of interchangeable there.

The other thing interesting about last night is it was the 1st time (or 1st time in a while) Mitts was used at W rather than C.  In the offseason, both he & Granato spoke a lot about moving him to W this year.  Wondering if he'd kind of prepared himself for that heading into the year & actually is, at this point, more comfortable there than at C.  At C, he tends this year to drive things to the boards.  Last night, he was driving things to the middle again.  1st time it was noticeable in a while.  EVERYTHING was going outside.

Have more speculation about this stuff but that's more than enough for now.

I think any hope of this is long gone. Maybe Mitts and VO can form a mediocre 3rd line but they are far an away below what the Cozens' line brings. I don't view them as interchangeable at all as one has 3 young players on the rise and the other, doesn't. 

[PerreaultForever]

The reality is this team is very thin and not very deep. We saw how bad things got with several D men injured, can you imagine what will happen if Thompson and Cozens were out at the same time? The bottom 6 is simply terrible with a draft bust, a waiver pick up, a one dimensional shooter and a couple aging has beens plus one more rotating body. Its a bottom six group that cannot match u[p to many better teams. We won't get better until we can add in more rising prospects. 

[LGR4GM]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

The reality is this team is very thin and not very deep. We saw how bad things got with several D men injured, can you imagine what will happen if Thompson and Cozens were out at the same time? The bottom 6 is simply terrible with a draft bust, a waiver pick up, a one dimensional shooter and a couple aging has beens plus one more rotating body. Its a bottom six group that cannot match u[p to many better teams. We won't get better until we can add in more rising prospects. 

Like Isak Rosen!

[Brawndo]

39 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Like Isak Rosen!

And Jiri Kulich 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Savoie is the next prospect.  I suspect Kulich and Rosen play a 2nd AHL year.

[sabresparaavida]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

The reality is this team is very thin and not very deep. We saw how bad things got with several D men injured, can you imagine what will happen if Thompson and Cozens were out at the same time? The bottom 6 is simply terrible with a draft bust, a waiver pick up, a one dimensional shooter and a couple aging has beens plus one more rotating body. Its a bottom six group that cannot match u[p to many better teams. We won't get better until we can add in more rising prospects. 

What team would be alright if they lost their top 2 centers? 

[LTS]

21 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

This is not factual. He didnt do a pullup at the combine and then after a chiropractor adjustment at U of Minn. was able to do pullups. It is also highly irrelevant 6 years later. 

I think any hope of this is long gone. Maybe Mitts and VO can form a mediocre 3rd line but they are far an away below what the Cozens' line brings. I don't view them as interchangeable at all as one has 3 young players on the rise and the other, doesn't. 

Oh I missed the original statement. I can't believe that narrative is still going around and even better now being embellished even more. The original take is so bad. If you are going to chime in on factual items, learn the facts. I'd say mind blown but that seems to be the way these days. "I overheard somewhere that MItts couldn't do a pull up a training camp." Man..

12 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

What team would be alright if they lost their top 2 centers? 

It depends, are the 3rd and 4th centers seasons NHL vets who can win faceoffs and shut another team down?  Some teams can continue along, albeit perhaps not as good.. but the Sabres lack that depth.  That's not a slam on them.. it's the nature of youth build and eventually they'll have that depth.

[sabresparaavida]

9 minutes ago, LTS said:

Oh I missed the original statement. I can't believe that narrative is still going around and even better now being embellished even more. The original take is so bad. If you are going to chime in on factual items, learn the facts. I'd say mind blown but that seems to be the way these days. "I overheard somewhere that MItts couldn't do a pull up a training camp." Man..

It depends, are the 3rd and 4th centers seasons NHL vets who can win faceoffs and shut another team down?  Some teams can continue along, albeit perhaps not as good.. but the Sabres lack that depth.  That's not a slam on them.. it's the nature of youth build and eventually they'll have that depth.

Give some examples of teams that would be fine losing their top 2 centers. Having centers that are good at shutting down/faceoffs as your top 6 centers for an extended period of time will make it hard to win hockey games. 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Savoie is the next prospect.  I suspect Kulich and Rosen play a 2nd AHL year.

Rousek has been making quite the impression on the Sabres brass in Rochester 

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, sabresparaavida said:

Give some examples of teams that would be fine losing their top 2 centers. Having centers that are good at shutting down/faceoffs as your top 6 centers for an extended period of time will make it hard to win hockey games. 

Any team that loses their Two 2 C will be in trouble as You mentioned.  Going from playing third and fourth line match ups to First and Second Line ones is a recipe for disaster. Not to mention that the existing roles will be filled with 13th or 14th Forwards or AHL level talent

49 minutes ago, inkman said:

Rousek has been making quite the impression on the Sabres brass in Rochester 

They are very happy with Kulich’s Development as well

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Like Isak Rosen!

Maybe. I'm not convinced he's the answer. I personally have more hope for Kulich. I'm not sure who it'll be the question is how long will we have to wait. 

The failure in the pipeline might also be a lack of more Samuelssons coming soon. We could use 2 more imo. Is the goalie Levi? How long will that wait be? 

I'm also not sure we have the 4th line role players either. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, sabresparaavida said:

What team would be alright if they lost their top 2 centers? 

Most good teams. Bruins started the season with big names missing, they did just fine. My point is that we really really really lack depth. 

[JohnC]

27 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Most good teams. Bruins started the season with big names missing, they did just fine. My point is that we really really really lack depth. 

The front office and organization would acknowledge that this team and system currently lacked depth. That's obvious for everyone to see. 

[K-9]

On 12/2/2022 at 1:24 PM, LTS said:

Okposo and Girgensons were here during losing years I think it's a bit unfair to say they have a losing mentality. Okposo definitely does not look as good but I think that's also partially because he's not being used as he has in the past. He's firmly rooted to the line he's on and so his production will not be as good as it was in the past. He's doing what he needs to do, but he's no longer (if ever was) worth his contract.

Rodrigues is a star? Is this the same player who hasn't been re-signed by the teams he's played on over the past few years? I wouldn't consider Compher or Hagel stars either.  They are all 3rd/4th line players.

Hagel didn't even make it with the second team he was with.

The team isn't supposed to be playoff ready yet. I think they are where they thought they would be, given what the plan was.

If ever two players never played like losers on a losing team, it’s Okposo and Girgs. Indeed, Girgs is still the same player who was still blocking shots in the third period of a game they were trailing by 11 goals when he played in a junior tourney in Europe. That is the antithesis of a loser mentality. 

[JohnC]

39 minutes ago, K-9 said:

If ever two players never played like losers on a losing team, it’s Okposo and Girgs. Indeed, Girgs is still the same player who was still blocking shots in the third period of a game they were trailing by 11 goals when he played in a junior tourney in Europe. That is the antithesis of a loser mentality. 

As you are highlighting, statistical production doesn't necessarily indicate the important contributions and roles that these two players make. Both on the ice and off these two veterans are leaders on this young team, showing the youngster how to play and prepare properly. These two guys are winners on the ice, in the room and in the community. If you took them off this team, there would be a void that couldn't be immediately filled. There are many players on this roster where it is fair to be critical of, not these two standup guys. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

The front office and organization would acknowledge that this team and system currently lacked depth. That's obvious for everyone to see. 

That's very nice of them, but isn't it their job to rectify that situation or not let it even be a situation? We are a cap floor team after all. 

[Hank]

55 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

That's very nice of them, but isn't it their job to rectify that situation or not let it even be a situation? We are a cap floor team after all. 

Yes, and they tore it down last year, rebuilding takes time. Personally, I'm happy with the progress I see. 

[Brawndo]

4 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Maybe. I'm not convinced he's the answer. I personally have more hope for Kulich. I'm not sure who it'll be the question is how long will we have to wait. 

The failure in the pipeline might also be a lack of more Samuelssons coming soon. We could use 2 more imo. Is the goalie Levi? How long will that wait be? 

I'm also not sure we have the 4th line role players either. 

Oliver Nadeau and Josh Bloom say Hi