Mittelstadt, Olofsson and the 3rd and 4th Lines

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Well, I don't think anyone here could be super-confident that @GASabresIUFAN hasn't ever advocated for an 8-year extension for Mitts at $10MM per year.  Certainly it would've been a fringe view.

More to the point:  Mitts and VO got completely caved in again last night, with under 7% of expected goals for.

I'm glad DG tried something last night -- throwing Jost to the wolves by swapping him in for Krebs on that line -- but it didn't work at all.  Jost ended up with only 2.53% of expected goals for.  He was the only Sabre with a worse xGF than Mitts and VO.

DG, I beseech you:  split up Mitts and VO.  Keep dressing them if you must, but everyone can see that they are disastrous together.

If it were up to me, I'd bench Mitts for at least 2 gams and go with:

VO-Jost-Asplund/Vinnie

Zemgus-Krebs-KO

I've never advocated a long-term extension for Mitts.  I've never even advocated for a 3 year bridge deal.  All I've ever said is that he is a very talented hockey player who I believed could succeed in the NHL.  I have been unwilling to write him off as a bust, especially after Tage's breakthrough because Mitts has gone through many of the same trials.  

That said, he and VO together have been awful 5 on 5 this season.  Something needs to be done.  In the goal they allowed yesterday, Casey failed to clear on one end and then VO gave the puck away.  They both need to be more physical on both ends of the ice and if they don't learn to do it, KA will move on. The plan was always to move on from VO to make room for kids coming up, but his awful play this year 5 on 5 will hasten that departure. 

If Krebs continues to make progress, Mitts could easily be traded at the deadline or in the off-season.  As I said before, I'd like to see DG put Girgensons with Mitts and VO to forecheck and hold them responsible.  

DG is unlikely to bench Mitts or VO.  Our PP is one of the best in the league and Mitts and VO are important pieces of that 2nd unit. 

 

[JohnC]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I've never advocated a long-term extension for Mitts.  I've never even advocated for a 3 year bridge deal.  All I've ever said is that he is a very talented hockey player who I believed could succeed in the NHL.  I have been unwilling to write him off as a bust, especially after Tage's breakthrough because Mitts has gone through many of the same trials.  

That said, he and VO together have been awful 5 on 5 this season.  Something needs to be done.  In the goal they allowed yesterday, Casey failed to clear on one end and then VO gave the puck away.  They both need to be more physical on both ends of the ice and if they don't learn to do it, KA will move on. The plan was always to move on from VO to make room for kids coming up, but his awful play this year 5 on 5 will hasten that departure. 

If Krebs continues to make progress, Mitts could easily be traded at the deadline or in the off-season.  As I said before, I'd like to see DG put Girgensons with Mitts and VO to forecheck and hold them responsible.  

DG is unlikely to bench Mitts or VO.  Our PP is one of the best in the league and Mitts and VO are important pieces of that 2nd unit. 

 

What progress are you referring to regarding Krebs? He has been struggling. I thought the coach putting him on the Girgs and Kyle line was a smart move in that it forced him to play a tighter game within a line structure. I thought in the third period when this line kept the puck in their zone that it was a valuable lesson for how to play a NHL game. 

I'm not giving up on Mitts. (Although my expectations for him are waning.) As you point out at the minimum, he has value as a second PP member. The best thing that could happen to him and the organization is for him to get more of his game back. He would then have more value on the market. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that he needs a change of scenery in order to reinvigorate his game. I remember DG saying last year that Mitts was one of the best players in training camp, then he got hurt and never seemed to get his game back. How quickly the storyline on a player can change!

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, JohnC said:

You go in circles. I don't know what you are talking about or what your point is. To say prospects are prospects is like saying a horse is a horse and a mule is a mule. I'm admittedly very obtuse but I'm aware of that. 

All I'm saying is I don't believe until I see it at an NHL level. Someone says "problem will be solved next year, next year we will have.............eg. Rosen" I'm simply saying problem MIGHT be solved, MIGHT NOT. No guarantees prospects become what we hope. That's all. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, SwampD said:

So, I called you out for being full of crap. If you don’t care enough to prove me wrong, then I certainly don’t.

😂

lol, be reasonable man, it was YEARS AGO. Prove me wrong. 

or don't. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

 

2020 Mitts Contract Thread: No one is even talking anything close to 10mil

I can't find his next contract conversation which would have been last year? I think. But in 2020 no one wanted him for 10mil a year, if some wanted that shortly after he was drafted, that's really just draft talk. We all hope our picks light it up. 

I remember reading it and laughing. I know it was somewhere on Sabrespace but it's funny you took the time to dig. I feel happy that you consider arguing with me that important. Lol, maybe I hallucinated it.

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by PerreaultForever

[nfreeman]

8 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

lol, be reasonable man, it was YEARS AGO. Prove me wrong. 

or don't. 

I don't think it's reasonable to ask someone to prove a negative, or generally possible to prove a negative.

If someone asserts that someone else posted something outlandish, it's on the poster making the assertion to prove it -- not on the skeptics to prove it didn't happen.

[K-9]

13 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

lol, be reasonable man, it was YEARS AGO. Prove me wrong. 

or don't. 

I don’t think you’re clear on the concept of burden of proof. 

[Curt]

18 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

lol, be reasonable man, it was YEARS AGO. Prove me wrong. 

or don't. 

 

9 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I don't think it's reasonable to ask someone to prove a negative, or generally possible to prove a negative.

If someone asserts that someone else posted something outlandish, it's on the poster making the assertion to prove it -- not on the skeptics to prove it didn't happen.

This is a good point, just as a theoretical concept.  How could someone prove to you that no one wrote something?  Show you all the examples of posts that it wasn’t written in?  Lol

[Pimlach]

OK boys @PerreaultForeverhas been worked over enough.   He likes the old style game.  There is no changing that.  

 

Now back to how to get better 3rd and 4th lines - I am afraid the next effort to improve this area will wait until the trade deadline.  Could be wrong but no trade happened when our defense was in a crisis and we lost 8 straight.  I think KA will tell Donny to work with what he has for now.  

[LGR4GM]

38 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

lol, be reasonable man, it was YEARS AGO. Prove me wrong. 

or don't. 

Prove yourself right. 

[Marvin]

Maybe the problem is not Mittlestadt and Olofsson as players, but them as a tandem.  DG may need to split them.  I wonder what the lines should look like...

[LGR4GM]

On 12/3/2022 at 10:15 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Remains to be seen. The cupboard was "full" before too, or so they said. Remember when everybody was pondering how they would afford to pay Mitts 10 million a year when they already would have to pay Skinner Eichel and Reinhart around 30? Remember those conversations? People here were serious. Mitts was going to need 8 figures lmfao.   Remember when Pekar was going to be our Marchand? Remember Bailey and Baptiste? So Hi back to them, now SHOW ME. 

Everybody but yet you can't provide one example of "everybody" saying this. 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

OK boys @PerreaultForeverhas been worked over enough.   He likes the old style game.  There is no changing that.  

 

Now back to how to get better 3rd and 4th lines - I am afraid the next effort to improve this area will wait until the trade deadline.  Could be wrong but no trade happened when our defense was in a crisis and we lost 8 straight.  I think KA will tell Donny to work with what he has for now.  

Oh come on, he likes it.

i actually doubt that Sabres will add 3rd/4th liners at the deadline.  Maybe the offseason.

[Pimlach]

22 minutes ago, Curt said:

Oh come on, he likes it.

i actually doubt that Sabres will add 3rd/4th liners at the deadline.  Maybe the offseason.

Agree.  No contenders will want to trade defense or goaltending at the deadline, so that wipes out half the pool.  

The  Sabres will unload something for assets or prospects and then use those pieces to get players or move in the draft - at least that is what most think.  

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Marvin said:

Maybe the problem is not Mittlestadt and Olofsson as players, but them as a tandem.  DG may need to split them.  I wonder what the lines should look like...

They have been split before.  VO drug down the first line and Mitts drug down the 2nd line.   You split them and you get two lines with a 5v5 liability and typically want either your 3rd or 4th line as a shutdown line.  We need a line that shuts down the opponent, wins key draws, and can play reliable hockey in the tough minutes when we are holding a lead.  

Try: 

Girgs - Krebs - KO    

Aspy - Jost- Hinestroza 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

All I'm saying is I don't believe until I see it at an NHL level. Someone says "problem will be solved next year, next year we will have.............eg. Rosen" I'm simply saying problem MIGHT be solved, MIGHT NOT. No guarantees prospects become what we hope. That's all. 

What you are basically saying is that "it could be" or "could not be". It could be "heads" or it could be "tails". It could be on the "right" or it could be on the "left". We could "win" or we could "lose". There are no guarantees because in life there are no guarantees. Tell me something that a stupido like me doesn't already know.  🤡

[PerreaultForever]

10 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I don't think it's reasonable to ask someone to prove a negative, or generally possible to prove a negative.

If someone asserts that someone else posted something outlandish, it's on the poster making the assertion to prove it -- not on the skeptics to prove it didn't happen.

It's unreasonable either way as it was years ago but whatever the case, just assume I was on crack and hallucinated it. That's fine. 

[PerreaultForever]

10 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Prove yourself right. 

No. 

[PerreaultForever]

8 hours ago, JohnC said:

What you are basically saying is that "it could be" or "could not be". It could be "heads" or it could be "tails". It could be on the "right" or it could be on the "left". We could "win" or we could "lose". There are no guarantees because in life there are no guarantees. Tell me something that a stupido like me doesn't already know.  🤡

What I'm saying is I'm not going to anoint people, they have to earn it. 

For example, right now the kid line is showing signs of being very good, but the sample size is way too small and all the bandwagon jumpers proclaiming the job as finished (only the third line needs fixing now) could hurt themselves falling off real soon. 

Let's see how they do against pittsburgh for example. Dominating San Jose this year isn't a huge accomplishment. 

[PerreaultForever]

I actually spent some time looking and failed to find it BUT you guys should all go back several years and look at some of your comments. The enthusiasm for the upcoming season threads are hilarious in hindsight. 

I think my favourite comment of all was " Nylander and Mitts seem to have a little bit of chemistry. " from 2018. 

I won't post links to hilarious comments so as not to single out or embarrass people still here but really, go back and look at some of the stuff from 3 or 4 or more years ago. It'll be humbling and if you take it the right way, hilarious. 

[nfreeman]

I think I’ve been optimistic and confident about playoffs every single summer during this misbegotten streak, including after Black Sunday.

This year they’re really going to make it though.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

👀

[Doohicksie]

On 12/4/2022 at 9:24 PM, PerreaultForever said:

On 12/4/2022 at 9:22 PM, SwampD said:

No one ever said that Mitts was going to be worth 10 million dollars. Ever. 

But it doesn't mayor.

Yes they did, but it's not major. 

My recollection was that a lot of people, some tongue-in-cheek, some serious, hailed Casey as a savior of sorts.  I was on that train a while, as I am apt to jump on these hype trains.  That said... I never thought he'd be a $10 million per year player.

Now someone pass me @PerreaultForever's crack pipe.

[Weave]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I actually spent some time looking and failed to find it BUT you guys should all go back several years and look at some of your comments. The enthusiasm for the upcoming season threads are hilarious in hindsight. 

I think my favourite comment of all was " Nylander and Mitts seem to have a little bit of chemistry. " from 2018. 

I won't post links to hilarious comments so as not to single out or embarrass people still here but really, go back and look at some of the stuff from 3 or 4 or more years ago. It'll be humbling and if you take it the right way, hilarious. 

[JohnC]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

What I'm saying is I'm not going to anoint people, they have to earn it. 

For example, right now the kid line is showing signs of being very good, but the sample size is way too small and all the bandwagon jumpers proclaiming the job as finished (only the third line needs fixing now) could hurt themselves falling off real soon. 

Let's see how they do against pittsburgh for example. Dominating San Jose this year isn't a huge accomplishment. 

No one is anointing anyone. That's your capstone fallback response to everyone. Much of the commentary about a number of the youngsters is positive for the simple reason is that their play is positive. Are Power, JJ and Cozens playing poorly? Isn't their recent play encouraging? And not all the commentary is indiscriminately glowing for players such as UPL, Mitts and Olofsson. You don't think that they have been harshly criticized? You are painting a false picture that everyone, but you, has been sucked into the vortex of delusion that their team is on the verge of hoisting the Cup. That's not true, and never has been true. 

Following a rebuilding team is different from following a Cup contending team. (Stating the obvious!) To get from point A to point Z is a process, sometimes excruciating so. It's not necessarily a steady upward trajectory. That's where we are at. And most of us understand that. What you are basically saying is call me when you get there. In the real world you don't get to your destination unless you travel the road.