GDT: New Jervils at Buffalo, 11/25/22, 8pm, MSG, WGR.

[Getpucksdeep]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

He wasn't imo but he played far better than he has recently. 

Best player to me was Quinn. He just controls pace with the puck. Jjp also had a great pass to Cozens for the tap in but Cozens couldn't cash it. 

Fair. I though that line played well again too. I think the first goal against was vs them with Cozens caught causing 3v2, and seemed they were matched vs Hughes most of the night. Hughes looks vastly improved.

[Pimlach]

9 hours ago, grinreaper said:

To all you guys getting impatient and crying out for immediate change, it's not going to happen. The Sabres are going to stick to their plan and if all you guys think about it another year or two to develop our young players should make you happy in the long term. Tonight's game was against a team that we want to soon be like (but with better players). I was entertained and liked their brand. If victories are your only parameter in how you feel about this team then you will be disappointed this year and maybe some next year. I've made the decision to enjoy watching their development and progress and not get upset over a game like tonight's just because they lost. BTW, I absolutely hate losing. I'll get upset if they play sloppy or don't put the effort in. I personally am enjoying this team and players as they improve. 

All you are saying here is what Adam’s has already said numerous times, and what most of us are already resigned too long ago. 
 

All these good young Sabres prospects will  someday need a little veteran support.  That is the part Jersey has done and we have yet to  do.  Which is in part due to our operate at cap floor with no blockers philosophy.  We definitely have more youth in our lineup than they do and probably have more top prospects in our pipeline too  

 

Oh, and goaltending, we just got stymied by their #3.  Ryan Miller left 9 years ago.  Can we get better in goal sometime this decade?   That might help us to win more games when it’s deemed ok to do so.  

[Sidc3000]

8 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

All you are saying here is what Adam’s has already said numerous times, and what most of us are already resigned too long ago. 
 

All these good young Sabres prospects will  someday need a little veteran support.  That is the part Jersey has done and we have yet to  do.  Which is in part due to our operate at cap floor with no blockers philosophy.  We definitely have more youth in our lineup than they do and probably have more top prospects in our pipeline too  

 

Oh, and goaltending, we just got stymied by their #3.  Ryan Miller left 9 years ago.  Can we get better in goal sometime this decade?   That might help us to win more games when it’s deemed ok to do so.  

I agree with both the comments. It is interesting and fun to watch these kids develop. Adams is trying his own Beane/McDermott philosophy of “Trust the process” which was annoying when McDermott would repeat it constantly but it worked out for the Bills. We have no choice but to sit back and watch what happens. I’m still somewhat skeptical of Adams future plans and his ability to build this team up. 

as for goaltending, I think Adams is going to ride or die with Comrie/UPL once Anderson retires (assuming at the end of the season). At least until they develop a better goalie.  I do hope he has a contingency plan in case Portillo and/or Levi decide to stay for their senior year & go to free agency afterwards. 
 

 

[JohnC]

32 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

All you are saying here is what Adam’s has already said numerous times, and what most of us are already resigned too long ago. 
 

All these good young Sabres prospects will  someday need a little veteran support.  That is the part Jersey has done and we have yet to  do.  Which is in part due to our operate at cap floor with no blockers philosophy.  We definitely have more youth in our lineup than they do and probably have more top prospects in our pipeline too  

 

Oh, and goaltending, we just got stymied by their #3.  Ryan Miller left 9 years ago.  Can we get better in goal sometime this decade?   That might help us to win more games when it’s deemed ok to do so.  

In this game their #3 goalie played exceptionally well. And in this game Anderson also did play well. He wasn't the reason why we lost. I was really impressed by Jersey's tight defensive style of play. All their players appeared to have been bought into Ruff's philosophy of two-way hockey. I thought the Devils kept our first line in check better than any team so far. They had little room to work with. 

I'm disappointed that the Sabres lost. The Sabres were certainly overmatched for much of the first period. But once they figured out how to play them, this was an even matchup. The difference between being a serious or non-serious contending team can be small. I don't think that we are that far away from crossing over that border. We just have to hang in there a little longer and have the fortitude to stick to the course that has been set. 

[SabresVet]

10 hours ago, grinreaper said:

To all you guys getting impatient and crying out for immediate change, it's not going to happen. The Sabres are going to stick to their plan and if all you guys think about it another year or two to develop our young players should make you happy in the long term. Tonight's game was against a team that we want to soon be like (but with better players). I was entertained and liked their brand. If victories are your only parameter in how you feel about this team then you will be disappointed this year and maybe some next year. I've made the decision to enjoy watching their development and progress and not get upset over a game like tonight's just because they lost. BTW, I absolutely hate losing. I'll get upset if they play sloppy or don't put the effort in. I personally am enjoying this team and players as they improve. 

This is a nuanced question, but what demonstrates improvement for this team?  Because the season is at the quarter pole now, so it's an acceptable sample size to compare last season (Year 0 of rebuild) to this one (Year 1).  

Sabres were 8-10-3 to begin last year with 60 GF (finished 23rd) and 70 GA (finished 25th).  That was a 74 point pace and they finished at 75.  This season, they're 9-12-0 with 76 GF (5th in NHL) and 73 GA (27th).  A 70 point pace this year.  

Of course, there's more to the story and an analysis can always dive deeper.  Still, I think everyone expected offensively they'd improve and that's happened, but defense has been banged up and goaltending is a TBD with UPL up, Comrie out, and Anderson playing decent.  

It shouldn't remove the expectation that being a 90 or better point team this year is unreasonable.  That would demonstrate progress, not pointing out that they're younger, play harder, or any of the other measures people create to justify faith in the GM and HC.  

[Sidc3000]

19 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

This is a nuanced question, but what demonstrates improvement for this team?  Because the season is at the quarter pole now, so it's an acceptable sample size to compare last season (Year 0 of rebuild) to this one (Year 1).  

Sabres were 8-10-3 to begin last year with 60 GF (finished 23rd) and 70 GA (finished 25th).  That was a 74 point pace and they finished at 75.  This season, they're 9-12-0 with 76 GF (5th in NHL) and 73 GA (27th).  A 70 point pace this year.  

Of course, there's more to the story and an analysis can always dive deeper.  Still, I think everyone expected offensively they'd improve and that's happened, but defense has been banged up and goaltending is a TBD with UPL up, Comrie out, and Anderson playing decent.  

It shouldn't remove the expectation that being a 90 or better point team this year is unreasonable.  That would demonstrate progress, not pointing out that they're younger, play harder, or any of the other measures people create to justify faith in the GM and HC.  

Could you imagine how bad this team would be, points-wise, if Tage hadn’t developed into the beast he has. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Sidc3000

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, phil_soisson said:

What is it, a dozen years on now from the last playoffs appearance? Kind of depressing, the thought that they are 3-4 pieces away from being a legit playoff team. 

Thing is, a couple (& maybe all 3) of the pieces might already be in the lineup.

They need a 2C that can keep the other team's scoring line in check AND generate chances at the other end.  They need it because the Thompson line isn't good enough in their own zone against true top lines. (They're good enough there against mist, but there are 5-10 lines they simply are going to get exposed against in their own end.  And Thompson keeps getting better in his end and recently has been playing a bit more physically, maybe he can get good enough that the coach WANTS to match #1's vs #1's.)  They don't have that 2C that can handle that matchup yet.  Cozens will very likely grow into that, maybe even by the end of this season.  Really expect him there next year.  Mittelstadt isn't there yet either.  Most everybody here doesn't expect him to get there, but he still could as well.  If neither can be that true 2C, well they have at least 2 more possibilities in the system that could very well do it & at least 2 more that aren't as likely to do it but might.

They need a true #4 D.  Lyubushkin looked like he could be that before the injury.  He was bad for a month after that.  He's played well these last 2 games.  Maybe he can handle that well enough.  Jokiharju may grow into that.

And they need a #1 goalie.  Comrie, w/ the D they have now when healthy, might be good enough to be it.  He wasn't w/ the D they used minus Samuelsson.  Even if he is, and especially if he isn't, still want another.

And obviously, there are other pieces that would help push them to championship level that they're lacking today.  But those should be enough to make playoffs the expectation rather than the hope.

 

[Berg]

15 hours ago, grinreaper said:

To all you guys getting impatient and crying out for immediate change, it's not going to happen. The Sabres are going to stick to their plan and if all you guys think about it another year or two to develop our young players should make you happy in the long term. Tonight's game was against a team that we want to soon be like (but with better players). I was entertained and liked their brand. If victories are your only parameter in how you feel about this team then you will be disappointed this year and maybe some next year. I've made the decision to enjoy watching their development and progress and not get upset over a game like tonight's just because they lost. BTW, I absolutely hate losing. I'll get upset if they play sloppy or don't put the effort in. I personally am enjoying this team and players as they improve. 

What's the plan? Play Anderson as the main goalkeeper until the age of 45?

[grinreaper]

7 hours ago, SabresVet said:

This is a nuanced question, but what demonstrates improvement for this team?  Because the season is at the quarter pole now, so it's an acceptable sample size to compare last season (Year 0 of rebuild) to this one (Year 1).  

Sabres were 8-10-3 to begin last year with 60 GF (finished 23rd) and 70 GA (finished 25th).  That was a 74 point pace and they finished at 75.  This season, they're 9-12-0 with 76 GF (5th in NHL) and 73 GA (27th).  A 70 point pace this year.  

Of course, there's more to the story and an analysis can always dive deeper.  Still, I think everyone expected offensively they'd improve and that's happened, but defense has been banged up and goaltending is a TBD with UPL up, Comrie out, and Anderson playing decent.  

It shouldn't remove the expectation that being a 90 or better point team this year is unreasonable.  That would demonstrate progress, not pointing out that they're younger, play harder, or any of the other measures people create to justify faith in the GM and HC.  

I see where you are coming from but pose a question or two that might not only give you a different perspective but also provide that perspective to the posters here that are getting impatient with progress based only on points. Would you say that the Devils failed last year because their point total was so low that they ended up 12 points behind the Sabres? Does this year's early success suggest that they may have done something right? 

[grinreaper]

16 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No one is asking for change. No one is asking for KA to move core players out or to toss out rebuild plan 3.0. All we are asking for is intelligent management to support the team when obvious holes in the lineup occur either through injury or poor performance.  Is that really too much to ask from the fans who have suffered through terrible teams for over a decade, when the team has a playoff caliber offense, 15 plus million in cap space, but mediocre defense and goaltending?

Once again, the Sabres have a plethora of young skilled players both on the team and in the AHL or college. It won't be long before they have more NHL ready talented players than they can field. Something will have to happen and I expect that some of them will be traded for an established player or more that can really solidify the team. The tricky part of all of this is that none of us or management know absolutely who will be the keepers. They are in the early stages of a process that should firm up their thoughts as to which ones are core players.

I'm not against making moves that would help our defense and goaltending. We need to fill up our defenseman pipeline and improve the quality of our goaltending but do so without blocking Levi or Portillo. 

You and others here claim that you are behind "rebuild plan 3.0" but then stick to complaining about the last ten years or so. The Sabres are still in the early stages of their "rebuild plan 3.0" and references to previous plans that didn't work have no bearing on this plan. 

[grinreaper]

2 hours ago, Berg said:

What's the plan? Play Anderson as the main goalkeeper until the age of 45?

Frankly speaking, that kind of a ridiculous comment does nothing to foster any real conversation. Anderson is a capable GT if used on a limited basis but we all know that he is not part of the future Sabres. 

[Taro T]

17 minutes ago, grinreaper said:

Frankly speaking, that kind of a ridiculous comment does nothing to foster any real conversation. Anderson is a capable GT if used on a limited basis but we all know that he is not part of the future Sabres. 

Would be shocked if he's in the plans for next year.  (The scary thing is, UPL likely IS in the plans.  As long as he's Sabres property will hope he figures it out & becomes what they hope he can be, but just not expecting it.  Expect his ceiling is Noronnen.)

[SabresVet]

43 minutes ago, grinreaper said:

I see where you are coming from but pose a question or two that might not only give you a different perspective but also provide that perspective to the posters here that are getting impatient with progress based only on points. Would you say that the Devils failed last year because their point total was so low that they ended up 12 points behind the Sabres? Does this year's early success suggest that they may have done something right? 

I asked pertinent questions...you respond with questions.  

I don't follow the Devils, but I can see from their quarter-season result that their 17-4 record is no fluke.  And then there's the expansion Seattle club who are out to an excellent start.  

Sabres fans meanwhile (as evidenced by this thread) are seeing their team 20M south of the cap ceiling...being told they don't want vets getting ice time above their prospects.  OK, but when does Buffalo and KA get awards for the most cap space?  Because up thread someone astutely noted that goes away come April.    

I think all people want to see is a commitment to winning that is balanced with prospect development.  With some players getting healthy, maybe there's a little more time warranted.  

[grinreaper]

14 hours ago, Contempt said:

Immediate? Can we have change on a time scale that is somewhat shorter than the entirety of galactic history?

Obviously you aren't aware that the Sabres started what some people here call "rebuild 3.0" and that it is independent of what previous management preferred. The Sabres are finally pursuing a solid path sans shortcuts. I hope you are not proposing cutting this rebuild short and going off in another direction. They are finally rebuilding with sustained success in mind. Teams may obtain a few stars in free agency, spend to the cap and have a couple of years of winning hockey but they tend to use up valuable capital in doing so and overall set their franchise back. In addition, the players available in free agency aren't always the kind of players that a franchise really should be building their team around. Look up Taylor Hall and his money grab when he played for the Sabres. 

[grinreaper]

39 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Would be shocked if he's in the plans for next year.  (The scary thing is, UPL likely IS in the plans.  As long as he's Sabres property will hope he figures it out & becomes what they hope he can be, but just not expecting it.  Expect his ceiling is Noronnen.)

I doubt that Anderson will be around another year and for the Sabres to expect him to be a part of the future would be foolish and not compatible with their (dare I say it?) "process". The jury is still out on UPL and the Sabres need a much deeper pipeline in regards to GT even if both Portillo and Levi sign. I'm thinking they need somewhat of a short term competent netminder. I was hoping Comrie might be it but that has yet to be proven. A short term answer as far as GT goes won't cost the Sabres anything but money and won't block a prospect. Pretty much the same thoughts as far as defense goes but a longer term contract for a defensemen would work too.  

[grinreaper]

43 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

I asked pertinent questions...you respond with questions.  

I don't follow the Devils, but I can see from their quarter-season result that their 17-4 record is no fluke.  And then there's the expansion Seattle club who are out to an excellent start.  

Sabres fans meanwhile (as evidenced by this thread) are seeing their team 20M south of the cap ceiling...being told they don't want vets getting ice time above their prospects.  OK, but when does Buffalo and KA get awards for the most cap space?  Because up thread someone astutely noted that goes away come April.    

I think all people want to see is a commitment to winning that is balanced with prospect development.  With some players getting healthy, maybe there's a little more time warranted.  

You asked one question which was: but what demonstrates improvement for this team? Although I think I answered that, improvement in my mind is more slanted towards the "eye test" than anything else. I want to see the work effort on a regular basis that they've shown in the last three games. I want them to develop an identity and the cohesiveness that goes with it. They need to be a very "close" team that plays for each other. When they've established those characteristics then I want to see them win--a lot and be a perennial playoff team that can contend for the Cup. My recent posts here have empathized development but that is not the goal, it's part of the process that will get them to being a contender. I'm for keeping the cart behind the horse to get to the desired destination. 

The part I quoted highlighted in red is where we agree. I just think the commitment to winning has to have development and culture as the path to that winning. 

 

[PerreaultForever]

19 hours ago, grinreaper said:

The head coach sets the tone and with our youth and the youth that will be coming up in the near future I believe Granato has the perfect philosophy and tone. Lindy often was brutal on young players but was a hell of a coach overall. 

What tone is that? I'm seriously asking, because a head coach is a lot more than that. 

[grinreaper]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

What tone is that? I'm seriously asking, because a head coach is a lot more than that. 

Of course a head coach has many varied duties and responsibilities. I am convinced that the  head coach needs to be first a great leader. That's true in all sports and other areas in which a person supervises others. The importance of leadership even supersedes a super knowledge of the X's and O's. Don't get me wrong, a head coach doesn't get the job if he hasn't toiled in the trenches* and attained a good knowledge of the sport but he can always hire assistants that are really good at game planning and making adjustments. The head coach, by example and his words needs to set the team's direction and make it known to the players what is acceptable and what is not. His job is to inspire and handle the numerous issues that come up in a fair and consistent manner.  

 

*With the possible exception of Jeff Saturday who toiled in the trenches as an offensive center and guard but never coached prior to getting the Colts Interim head coaching job. 

[PerreaultForever]

27 minutes ago, grinreaper said:

Of course a head coach has many varied duties and responsibilities. I am convinced that the  head coach needs to be first a great leader. That's true in all sports and other areas in which a person supervises others. The importance of leadership even supersedes a super knowledge of the X's and O's. Don't get me wrong, a head coach doesn't get the job if he hasn't toiled in the trenches* and attained a good knowledge of the sport but he can always hire assistants that are really good at game planning and making adjustments. The head coach, by example and his words needs to set the team's direction and make it known to the players what is acceptable and what is not. His job is to inspire and handle the numerous issues that come up in a fair and consistent manner.  

 

*With the possible exception of Jeff Saturday who toiled in the trenches as an offensive center and guard but never coached prior to getting the Colts Interim head coaching job. 

I'm not convinced at this stage Granato's game planning, line match ups, clock management and so forth are all that brilliant. Lindy knows how to do those things well. Or at least as well as his roster allows. Granato seems more preoccupied with trying to find ways for individual players to improve but not necessarily to win hockey games. As I've said though, their plan is a long term plan and that is frustrating to watch as a fan. Granato may still show those skills when it's time (in their minds) to shift priorities. 

[grinreaper]

7 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not convinced at this stage Granato's game planning, line match ups, clock management and so forth are all that brilliant. Lindy knows how to do those things well. Or at least as well as his roster allows. Granato seems more preoccupied with trying to find ways for individual players to improve but not necessarily to win hockey games. As I've said though, their plan is a long term plan and that is frustrating to watch as a fan. Granato may still show those skills when it's time (in their minds) to shift priorities. 

I'm not sure what you have against his clock management but he certainly has been putting his players in all situations. I assume that's part of his development plan specifically to get certain players to focus on defense by giving them the opportunity on the PK.

[SabresVet]

1 hour ago, grinreaper said:

You asked one question which was: but what demonstrates improvement for this team? Although I think I answered that, improvement in my mind is more slanted towards the "eye test" than anything else. I want to see the work effort on a regular basis that they've shown in the last three games. I want them to develop an identity and the cohesiveness that goes with it. They need to be a very "close" team that plays for each other. When they've established those characteristics then I want to see them win--a lot and be a perennial playoff team that can contend for the Cup. My recent posts here have empathized development but that is not the goal, it's part of the process that will get them to being a contender. I'm for keeping the cart behind the horse to get to the desired destination. 

The part I quoted highlighted in red is where we agree. I just think the commitment to winning has to have development and culture as the path to that winning. 

 

This season I expect quantifiable evidence of improvement, not personal subjective assessments that are likely through rose colored lenses.  

None of what you listed above really helps make the playoffs and win there.  It's talent combined with superior game-planning and in-game management (as @PerreaultForever already noted) is what wins.  

If they are not a ~90 point team by season's end then the rebuild is effectively stuck in neutral.  Some will avoid viewing it this way, but that's what it'll be.  And I say that because every season players are getting older, another contract year is over, and other teams are improving.  

Baby steps guarantee you never get there given what I just wrote.  

[grinreaper]

37 minutes ago, SabresVet said:

This season I expect quantifiable evidence of improvement, not personal subjective assessments that are likely through rose colored lenses.  

None of what you listed above really helps make the playoffs and win there.  It's talent combined with superior game-planning and in-game management (as @PerreaultForever already noted) is what wins.  

If they are not a ~90 point team by season's end then the rebuild is effectively stuck in neutral.  Some will avoid viewing it this way, but that's what it'll be.  And I say that because every season players are getting older, another contract year is over, and other teams are improving.  

Baby steps guarantee you never get there given what I just wrote.  

So, you refute my post/posts with a personal subjective assessment? If you don't think culture, leadership, development and hard work are not necessary for talent to rise up then I don't see the point of discussing anything more.

[LGR4GM]

23 hours ago, Getpucksdeep said:

Fair. I though that line played well again too. I think the first goal against was vs them with Cozens caught causing 3v2, and seemed they were matched vs Hughes most of the night. Hughes looks vastly improved.

That's what happens when you allow highly talented 5'10" 160lb players to grow up to be 5'11" 176lb players,  although I think he weighs more than that. Basically I'm saying we need to be patient with Rosen, Kulich, Östlund, and Kisakov

[Contempt]

19 hours ago, grinreaper said:

Obviously you aren't aware that the Sabres started what some people here call "rebuild 3.0" and that it is independent of what previous management preferred. The Sabres are finally pursuing a solid path sans shortcuts. I hope you are not proposing cutting this rebuild short and going off in another direction. They are finally rebuilding with sustained success in mind. Teams may obtain a few stars in free agency, spend to the cap and have a couple of years of winning hockey but they tend to use up valuable capital in doing so and overall set their franchise back. In addition, the players available in free agency aren't always the kind of players that a franchise really should be building their team around. Look up Taylor Hall and his money grab when he played for the Sabres. 

The team sucks. I want it to not suck. I want it to not suck as quickly as possible without doing stupid things. Don't confuse that with demanding "immediate" change.

I appreciate your condescension though.  Typically this level of arrogance is reserved for teams that have a modicum of success.

[PerreaultForever]

17 hours ago, grinreaper said:

I'm not sure what you have against his clock management but he certainly has been putting his players in all situations. I assume that's part of his development plan specifically to get certain players to focus on defense by giving them the opportunity on the PK.

That's not winning hockey though, that's training school. 

What I'm saying is I see his teaching abilities, I have yet to see his winning as a head coach abilities.