The New Jersey Devils can do it, But not the Sabres.

[LTS]

11 hours ago, Thorny said:

Let me clarify: 

There is a positive correlation between spending above the cap floor and winning 

Teams that spend above the cap floor literally do win more than those thats don’t 

- - -

If spending more had no bearing on winning more, there would be no need for a salary cap at all. It’s specifically designed to promote parity for that very reason. 
 

Here is a good literal article detailing how much more teams that spend have literally won more historically than those that don’t, literally: 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/globe-on-hockey/nhl-teams-that-spend-tend-to-win/article4209975/

“From a purely statistical point of view, there's a pretty strong relationship between what teams have spent and how often they've won.” It’s a Myrtle article. 
 

It’s a little older but it’s the most in depth article on the clear correlation I could find with a quick perusal, nothing newer I could find suggests it’s changed drastically, if at all 

I did read through the other link you sent.  What I don't see (may have missed) is the timing of the spend relative to success of the players it was spent on.

Take the Avalanche as an example.  They were pretty low in salary cap. They had lots of young talent. They won before their spend caught up to them. Next year they will be near the top. The Lightning were similar in that regard but also managed a few mid-tier salary agreements. I think most of the team you look at that end up spending money are the ones that developed their players and then paid them.  It was just a question of whether the top talent got the contract before or after the success.

The one thing that plagues Buffalo unlike other franchises is the change in ownership and a complete lack of continuity and strategy for the better part of the Pegula ownership.

However, you've seen the beginning of the change with the Thompson contract. You see the Samuelsson contract that so many panned but once he was injured the defense suffered greatly. The building blocks are there.  Fans carry the length of the losing on their backs, it's tough to shed that.  I bet Kevyn Adams could go out and spend money tomorrow... it might equate to a season of winning.. and then it might very well end up leading to more losing because of the desire to go for the short term flash. It might also work out. Both happen quite frequently.

Spending analysis needs to extend beyond looking at the amounts spent and really look at how it was spent. Was it paying youth that was drafted or acquired in a good trade or was it spent on a UFAs.  How long did that spend equate to winning?  Is it enough to win one or two seasons or does it lead to long term success?  How much change occurred during that spend when it comes to ownership and management? There are so many more factors than just records and money that have to be accounted for to truly get a sense of what works best.

 

[LGR4GM]

10 hours ago, Thorny said:

Well I’m damn glad I *double checks Nervously * used correlation in my initial post. 
 

A big bit of it probably isn’t causation, ya, I buy that. But it defies logic to think that there wouldn’t be some. If you asked the 10 best gms to build a team not one would say their allotted budget was irrelevant. 
 

Im sure a fair few “good” gms who are spending would succeed just fine, spending less, and some bad gms spending little would still perform badly, spending a lot, and that would be a cool simulation if we could ever see it 

if I’m making any effort at consistency of argument here, I’ve said a hockey team can be built w/ slow build or faster builds and that in the end it comes down to the aptitude of the gm in question: I’d wager most good gms could succeed regardless of budget
 

to an extent - again. the curious case of Kevyn Adams to me is more curious b/c we are spending not at all - in extreme cases like this I think it’s absolutely a handcuff. But everyone is saying that, so. 

in the end, the cap space is just a tool, and if we think we have a good Gm, why wouldn’t we want him wielding that tool?

if he’s not a good gm, what are we doing anyway

I feel like a broken record playing the greatest "please pay attention" hits of the last year. Look at what we are already starting to spend next year. Adams is literally doing exactly what he said he was going to do and you are acting like it is some big mystery. Cap space is a tool, but you don't use the same tool for the entirety of every job. Yea, when I am putting in this flooring I will need a hammer but don't use that as a spacer for the trim. 

I just, I don't get this you won't tell me anyone you think we should have added, you just complain about spending money. Next year when we only have 8mil in cap space what will the angle be? We didn't spend it correctly, we did spend it correctly? Adams is an idiot because he spent money? This team needed another defender, Adams didn't do it but this entire circle jerk of a thread defies logic. "If we spent more we would be better and No LIGER! you can't name teams that did that and still failed like Columbus or Ottawa." So the only thing that apparently matters is we have an 8 game losing streak because Adams didn't blow his wad of cash on high priced UFAs on long term deals who probably didn't want to come here because we have been ***** for a decade. Fantastic. 

[LGR4GM]

12 hours ago, Thorny said:

 

My argument isn’t that *I* could do a better job. I certainly could not. “Oh here is what I would have done.” That’s ludicrous. It’s that the guy being paid millions to do a job only 30 people get, where half the teams make the playoffs, should be able to do a better job. 

It’s a relative comparison to the damn league not “ahh, this is what ID have done! Derpeedoo”

Dont see how you can’t see this. Me being able to give you examples of moves when I have NO idea what sort of conversations I may or may not have been able to have with other teams is so pointless I don’t even try. Quick way to make my takes even more laughable. 
 

What's worthless is saying that without knowing those conversations Adams should have spent all this money on some mystical players that you can't even think of. I mean hell, you could say "we should have signed Copp" okay great, that's where you think we could have used help, awesome. Now we could talk about that. Instead it is "Adams didn't spend money and we are losing therefore it is because he didn't spend money and if you point out teams that did spend and are losing I will shove my fingers in my ears and scream "I CAN"T HERE YOU!" Like wtf are we even doing here?

[LGR4GM]

You wanna know why the njd are good?

 

[Buffalonill]

13 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You wanna know why the njd are good?

 

And people laughed at his contract and me when saying they locked up a superstar 

[BillyBilliams]

On 11/20/2022 at 6:53 AM, shrader said:

How is it that we keep getting new people who sign up just to whine? I’ll never understand the mentality of “this team sucks… hey, why don’t I sign up to one of their message boards and complain about it”.  Go out and grab a beer. Spend some time outside (ok, maybe not right now). There are much better ways to spend your time, things you can actually control. 

So, should we come on here and praise the team and think everything is fine?  I don't get why this comment is needed.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

3 minutes ago, BillyBilliams said:

So, should we come on here and praise the team and think everything is fine?  I don't get why this comment is needed.

Welcome!!

Sent you a beer.

The point is why sign up if you are just going to complain about the team.  There is nothing to gain by that and is a waste of your precious time.  Find another hobby or do anything else becasue anything else would be a better use of your time.  Same is true if all you are going to do is say everyting is great.

[Marvin]

54 minutes ago, BillyBilliams said:

So, should we come on here and praise the team and think everything is fine?  I don't get why this comment is needed.

Welcome to the board!

What I try to do when I criticise The team is to try and offer realistic ideas.  For instance, a #6D in lieu of Bryson at a reasonable price is not a big ask.

[LTS]

53 minutes ago, BillyBilliams said:

So, should we come on here and praise the team and think everything is fine?  I don't get why this comment is needed.

There's a difference in how you approach it.  If you want to join up to be part of the support group that's fine. But there are a solid contingency of posters who have made it their goal in life to just complain, even without basis and then denigrate or deflect rather than have a discussion.

I'm not sure anyone on here is happy with the team and has not complained in some fashion.

If you are here because you want moral support in being a Sabres fan then welcome to the forum. If you are here just to complain then I think the point is, as said above, why?  Eliminate that negativity from your life. Avoid it.  We're all here to bring people up and get through the tough times but there are those who have a deep seated disgust of the team, the owners, etc. and it shows.

 

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, BillyBilliams said:

So, should we come on here and praise the team and think everything is fine?  I don't get why this comment is needed.

Welcome. 

Not sure what we could praise at this point. 

[SwampD]

2 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

And people laughed at his contract and me when saying they locked up a superstar 

Link or it didn’t happen.

[Buffalonill]

8 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Link or it didn’t happen.

You have to find it someone made a thread 

[shrader]

2 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

Welcome!!

Sent you a beer.

The point is why sign up if you are just going to complain about the team.  There is nothing to gain by that and is a waste of your precious time.  Find another hobby or do anything else becasue anything else would be a better use of your time.  Same is true if all you are going to do is say everyting is great.

Some call it fandom. Others call it masochism. 

[Curt]

3 hours ago, Buffalonill said:

And people laughed at his contract and me when saying they locked up a superstar 

How do you type so much with one hand down your pants all day?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

8 minutes ago, Curt said:

How do you type so much with one hand down your pants all day?

👀

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Buffalonill said:

You have to find it someone made a thread 

You're bragging about saying it, you find it. 

[JohnC]

23 hours ago, LTS said:

A word of caution on Detroit.  They ain't done anything yet.  If all of those changes have them just outside the playoffs at the end of the season then would you consider it successful?

Right now there are two approaches and unless one of them puts a team in the playoffs on a consistent basis then neither have proven themselves to be a success.  Moderately better in the standings, sure.  Right now it's wait and see...  no one has won until the votes are counted, in full.  The Sabres have a lot of youth and at some point I think the consideration will be that they've evaluated who stays and who gets traded to bring in that veteran support.  It wasn't going to be before this season, but it may very well be during this season, at the trade deadline, in the off-season.  We don't know yet... so we have to wait and see.

The Sabres established their path for this season, Detroit established theirs. Who is right?  We'll not know until the end.

There is a middle ground that included adding a couple of additional players to create more depth. I'm not suggesting, or ever suggested, that the organization should go full throttle to address the short-term needs at the expense of hindering the development of our younger players. What I'm suggesting is the opposite of that. What I'm advocating for here is that adding a couple, or few more additional players would have given this roster more depth, and also more importantly provided more support to the younger players. 

[JohnC]

20 hours ago, Thorny said:

If you don’t have access to all the contacts and tools a GM, being paid to make the decisions, has at his disposal, no, a message board poster isn’t required to “name names” to prove their argument lol 

It’s enough to compare Adams’ work at goaltender vs/relative to the work across the league as a whole: Adams has not successfully addressed goaltending. Without being privy to the variables, on both sides of the equation, the best marker is results. 

Unless one wants to argue that Adams *could not* have improved the goaltending in 3 years? It’s just seeking to prove a negative and it’s folly.

Kevin Adams was on WGR last year and was asked why he didn't re-sign Ullmark. The GM said that what Ullmark wanted was outside the contract parameters that the organization felt he was worth. Ullmark wanted a longer deal and more money than he signed with Boston. I have no criticism for a player who wants more to remain with a historically troubled franchise and who preferred to take less on a shorter term with a more stable franchise. It's called a loser's tax!

[BillyBilliams]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Welcome. 

Not sure what we could praise at this point. 

That's what I'm getting at.  I've kind of joined the board to help the healing of how bad this team has hurt me over the last decade.

 

3 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

Welcome!!

Sent you a beer.

The point is why sign up if you are just going to complain about the team.  There is nothing to gain by that and is a waste of your precious time.  Find another hobby or do anything else becasue anything else would be a better use of your time.  Same is true if all you are going to do is say everyting is great.

That makes sense.  I'm at work when I'm posting on here.  When I post at work, I'm not doing anything anyways, but I can't leave.

 

3 hours ago, Marvin said:

Welcome to the board!

What I try to do when I criticise The team is to try and offer realistic ideas.  For instance, a #6D in lieu of Bryson at a reasonable price is not a big ask.

Honestly, I really don't have any ideas on how this team can be better.  First it's the goal scoring that is bad.  Then it's the defense.  Then it's the goaltending.  Then it's we are too young.....then when we sign vets (like Okposo), they're terrible.  It feels like we are cursed.

[Taro T]

15 minutes ago, BillyBilliams said:

That's what I'm getting at.  I've kind of joined the board to help the healing of how bad this team has hurt me over the last decade.

 

That makes sense.  I'm at work when I'm posting on here.  When I post at work, I'm not doing anything anyways, but I can't leave.

 

Honestly, I really don't have any ideas on how this team can be better.  First it's the goal scoring that is bad.  Then it's the defense.  Then it's the goaltending.  Then it's we are too young.....then when we sign vets (like Okposo), they're terrible.  It feels like we are cursed.

It only feels like we're cursed because we are.  😉

BTW, welcome.  🍻

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

What's worthless is saying that without knowing those conversations Adams should have spent all this money on some mystical players that you can't even think of. I mean hell, you could say "we should have signed Copp" okay great, that's where you think we could have used help, awesome. Now we could talk about that. Instead it is "Adams didn't spend money and we are losing therefore it is because he didn't spend money and if you point out teams that did spend and are losing I will shove my fingers in my ears and scream "I CAN"T HERE YOU!" Like wtf are we even doing here?

Be Here Now right? Very Zen.   But I can't HEAR you. 

There were a few free agent options but I can accept your argument that there wasn't any real significant body out there we could add to change things. It's also VERY POSSIBLE that they almost all have no interest in coming to Buffalo. It might also be possible that almost every possible trade involves a guy with a 10 team no trade clause the has Buffalo at the top circled in red and underlined.  The one thing you fail to acknowledge in your own repetition is that teams are looking to move bodies for salary reasons. Spending a little could improve this team in the short term while we wait for future prospects to develop properly. It doesn't have to be and shouldn't be an all rookie team. 

We had a D crisis and Mike Reilly was free for the taking. Is he great? No. Is he better than Pilut, Clague, Fitzgerald or even Bryson, definitely. One more year of salary after this one so what? Veteran presence who can play in that puck moving style we want even if he trails off totally so what? We don't have to add a done goalie to meet the floor. 

I was watching Tampa and Boston and Tampa snapped up Rudolf Balcers for free, Why didn't Adams? Guy would look great playing beside Zemgus on that 4th line. Find a third and make it an all Latvian line. Before you say he's crap, he's feisty and he grinds and he'd help give that 4th line the character it needs. No, we went Jost. Sure why not. Let's be soft forever. A guy can play on Tampa, but he's not good enough for the Sabres. Ya, that makes sense. 

Give it up defending Adams, it's a losing argument. This team is a cost cutting joke and he's Bozo leading the clown show. 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by PerreaultForever

[Refuting]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Be Here Now right? Very Zen.   But I can't HEAR you. 

There were a few free agent options but I can accept your argument that there wasn't any real significant body out there we could add to change things. It's also VERY POSSIBLE that they almost all have no interest in coming to Buffalo. It might also be possible that almost every possible trade involves a guy with a 10 team no trade clause the has Buffalo at the top circled in red and underlined.  The one thing you fail to acknowledge in your own repetition is that teams are looking to move bodies for salary reasons. Spending a little could improve this team in the short term while we wait for future prospects to develop properly. It doesn't have to be and shouldn't be an all rookie team. 

We had a D crisis and Mike Reilly was free for the taking. Is he great? No. Is he better than Pilut, Clague, Fitzgerald or even Bryson, definitely. One more year of salary after this one so what? Veteran presence who can play in that puck moving style we want even if he trails off totally so what? We don't have to add a done goalie to meet the floor. 

I was watching Tampa and Boston and Tampa snapped up Rudolf Balcers for free, Why didn't Adams? Guy would look great playing beside Zemgus on that 4th line. Find a third and make it an all Latvian line. Before you say he's crap, he's feisty and he grinds and he'd help give that 4th line the character it needs. No, we went Jost. Sure why not. Let's be soft forever. A guy can play on Tampa, but he's not good enough for the Sabres. Ya, that makes sense. 

Give it up defending Adams, it's a losing argument. This team is a cost cutting joke and he's Bozo leading the clown show. 

 

Looool

Give this man a medal 

[Buffalonill]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

How do you type so much with one hand down your pants all day?

[Marvin]

15 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Be Here Now right? Very Zen.   But I can't HEAR you. 

There were a few free agent options but I can accept your argument that there wasn't any real significant body out there we could add to change things. It's also VERY POSSIBLE that they almost all have no interest in coming to Buffalo. It might also be possible that almost every possible trade involves a guy with a 10 team no trade clause the has Buffalo at the top circled in red and underlined.  The one thing you fail to acknowledge in your own repetition is that teams are looking to move bodies for salary reasons. Spending a little could improve this team in the short term while we wait for future prospects to develop properly. It doesn't have to be and shouldn't be an all rookie team. 

We had a D crisis and Mike Reilly was free for the taking. Is he great? No. Is he better than Pilut, Clague, Fitzgerald or even Bryson, definitely. One more year of salary after this one so what? Veteran presence who can play in that puck moving style we want even if he trails off totally so what? We don't have to add a done goalie to meet the floor. 

I was watching Tampa and Boston and Tampa snapped up Rudolf Balcers for free, Why didn't Adams? Guy would look great playing beside Zemgus on that 4th line. Find a third and make it an all Latvian line. Before you say he's crap, he's feisty and he grinds and he'd help give that 4th line the character it needs. No, we went Jost. Sure why not. Let's be soft forever. A guy can play on Tampa, but he's not good enough for the Sabres. Ya, that makes sense. 

Give it up defending Adams, it's a losing argument. This team is a cost cutting joke and he's Bozo leading the clown show. 

 

I agree with Reilly and Balcers instead of Jost.

That last line is far too far for me to go to.

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I feel like a broken record playing the greatest "please pay attention" hits of the last year. Look at what we are already starting to spend next year. Adams is literally doing exactly what he said he was going to do and you are acting like it is some big mystery. Cap space is a tool, but you don't use the same tool for the entirety of every job. Yea, when I am putting in this flooring I will need a hammer but don't use that as a spacer for the trim. 

I just, I don't get this you won't tell me anyone you think we should have added, you just complain about spending money. Next year when we only have 8mil in cap space what will the angle be? We didn't spend it correctly, we did spend it correctly? Adams is an idiot because he spent money? This team needed another defender, Adams didn't do it but this entire circle jerk of a thread defies logic. "If we spent more we would be better and No LIGER! you can't name teams that did that and still failed like Columbus or Ottawa." So the only thing that apparently matters is we have an 8 game losing streak because Adams didn't blow his wad of cash on high priced UFAs on long term deals who probably didn't want to come here because we have been ***** for a decade. Fantastic. 

This is barely intelligible and I stopped at circle jerk 

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

Kevin Adams was on WGR last year and was asked why he didn't re-sign Ullmark. The GM said that what Ullmark wanted was outside the contract parameters that the organization felt he was worth. Ullmark wanted a longer deal and more money than he signed with Boston. I have no criticism for a player who wants more to remain with a historically troubled franchise and who preferred to take less on a shorter term with a more stable franchise. It's called a loser's tax!

Yup, agree