The New Jersey Devils can do it, But not the Sabres.

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Just proves that a spending to the cap strategy, as well as a refuse to spend to the cap strategy, can both lead to poor results. There are time-tested strategies teams use to turn things around, teams will do quicker retools and be successful, and longer builds and be successful. Though, in today's parity driven league, the retool is much more common. 

That the Sabres specifically failed at the spend-more strategy doesn't do anything to rule it out as a viable strategy: the Sabres have failed at everything they have tried in 12 years. 

It just comes down to the aptitude of those orchestrating the strategy. Adams strategy isn't going to work because it's the anointed "correct" strategy, it will only work if he is successful at implementing it. 

I would also add that while spending to the cap may not guarantee success, not spending to the floor pretty much guarantees failure.

[JohnC]

Just now, Thorny said:

Well said. 

Going Sith mode is needless. 

It's about balance. 

Always has been. 

I would argue that more resources ($$$) should have been used to bring in a higher end goalie in addition to the Comrie add. Bringing back an elderly Anderson who needs to be sheltered with limited playing time was not something I would have done.  I have no problem with adding Comrie. But another goalie could have been added to the mix when a number of candidates were on the market. And as  @Taro Thas frequently stated another defenseman could have been added to the blue line. 

[Thorner]

8 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I would also add that while spending to the cap may not guarantee success, not spending to the floor pretty much guarantees failure.

At least in the immediate term re: tangible results 

[Kristian]

8 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

The Sabres should be better at this point in the season.

But, NJ has 2 advantages:

1.  They have brought in more/higher priced mid level talent that can help the team now.  Buffalo is playing Quinn, Peterka, Cousins, and Krebs quite a bit and they are all having major issues with positioning or turnovers.  NJ has more guys that may NOT be more talented, but aren't hurting them the same way.

2. NJ  has 2 key young guys leading the team. Hischier who is 23, and Hughes who is 21.  They have a LOT of NHL experience for their age.  The past 2 -3 years, they played, they often times were VERY bad while they learned.  Now they have that experience and are a lot better.    That seems to be what the Sabres want to do with the young guys...have them learn  "in the NHL, on the ice".  In the long run that may be a good stategy (to be a team like NJ), but you are also going to be not that good while doing it (just like NJ)

Sure let the young guys learn…

They’ll be ready to play about half a season after Dahlin and Thompson have requested a trade…

Round and round we go.

[tom webster]

58 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I would argue that more resources ($$$) should have been used to bring in a higher end goalie in addition to the Comrie add. Bringing back an elderly Anderson who needs to be sheltered with limited playing time was not something I would have done.  I have no problem with adding Comrie. But another goalie could have been added to the mix when a number of candidates were on the market. And as  @Taro Thas frequently stated another defenseman could have been added to the blue line. 

They tried to acquire Murray and Gibson and I believe they tried to acquire a #4 defenseman. They can’t force people to come here.

I am as frustrated as anyone but what I’ve been told is Adams has authority to spend to the cap but won’t spend money on veteran players that may help them be more competitive but won’t be enough to push them further. It’s frustrating because of where they have been and I’ve cautioned them that they may do irreparable harm to their relationship with the dwindling fan base. While I don’t agree with their position, it does make a certain amount of sense.

[LabattBlue]

4 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Maybe we are last years new jersey devils 🙂

Wake me up when we are this years NJ Devils. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

They tried to acquire Murray and Gibson and I believe they tried to acquire a #4 defenseman. They can’t force people to come here.

I am as frustrated as anyone but what I’ve been told is Adams has authority to spend to the cap but won’t spend money on veteran players that may help them be more competitive but won’t be enough to push them further. It’s frustrating because of where they have been and I’ve cautioned them that they may do irreparable harm to their relationship with the dwindling fan base. While I don’t agree with their position, it does make a certain amount of sense.

I've said this on a number of occasions so I apologize for the repetition: The long-term losing has had a corrosive effect to the point that players don't want to come here, and players already here don't want to remain here. (As you are pointing out.) The GM could have re-signed Ullmark who was requiring a premium (not exorbitant) price for staying here. The GM wasn't willing to do so. In my opinion the GM should have done so. As you warningly point out this bruised and battered fan base is dwindling. A greater degree of urgency in buttressing this roster should have been demonstrated in the last offseason. The current state of affairs is very troubling. 

[TheAud]

10 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

It's up in the Adirondacks is all I know. To be clear I was using the lake as metaphor for his abused, joyless hockey team. He hasn't done any of those things. Probably.

Metaphor? 

It's called lying. 

[Eleven]

It's just so hard for me to not say what's on my mind, here.

[tom webster]

5 hours ago, Eleven said:

It's just so hard for me to not say what's on my mind, here.

And why do you need to hold back?

[Berg]

On 11/20/2022 at 6:22 AM, FanaticSense06 said:

The New Jersey Devils can draft Jesper Bratt, Nico Hischier, and Jack Hughes over 5 years of "tanking", sign a bunch of veterans to surround them with and be the best team in the NHL who are currently on a 12 game win streak.

 

Meanwhile the Pegulas get twelve top 10 draft picks, two 2nd overall picks, and two 1st overall picks mixed in, are tanking twice as long as the Devils, and STILL somehow ice a bottom 5 team 20 million dollars under the cap floor. Sigh...

 

It's a straight joke.

Time is lost and the result of a series of defeats unfortunately gives very little chance of reaching the playoffs.

I will be happy if the coaching staff manages to at least improve the game, act more aggressively in defense and not concede stupid goals.

But the example of NJ shows even a blind man how to act in order to achieve a result, and not step on the same rake every year.

[nucci]

8 hours ago, Eleven said:

It's just so hard for me to not say what's on my mind, here.

actually, this is the place to do it

[inkman]

On 11/19/2022 at 11:37 PM, SwampD said:

So, what’s the question?

They have almost twenty million more in actual salaries of actual hockey players playing the game than the Sabres do and you are wondering why they are winning and we are not?

 

On 11/19/2022 at 11:40 PM, FanaticSense06 said:

The Question is why are we sitting 20 million under the cap while were bottom 5 in the NHL for the 12th year straight?

 

Meanwhile the Devils can spend their money on veterans and be the 2nd best team in the NHL after tanking for just 5 years.

 

Anyone wanna ask Kevyn or the Pegulas that question? Are we tanking, AGAIN?

Maybe consider changing the thread title?  It surely annoys the ***** outta me. 

[LGR4GM]

16 hours ago, JohnC said:

I would argue that more resources ($$$) should have been used to bring in a higher end goalie in addition to the Comrie add. Bringing back an elderly Anderson who needs to be sheltered with limited playing time was not something I would have done.  I have no problem with adding Comrie. But another goalie could have been added to the mix when a number of candidates were on the market. And as  @Taro Thas frequently stated another defenseman could have been added to the blue line. 

What goalie? Name names. Also as you left this out, spending or not spending doesn't guarantee you to be successful. Ottawa spent a bunch this offseason... how they doin?

Edited November 21, 2022 by LGR4GM

[JohnC]

17 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

What goalie? Name names. Also as you left this out, spending or not spending doesn't guarantee you to be successful. Ottawa spent a bunch this offseason... how they doin?

How about paying Ullmark the premium he was asking for to remain with this dystopian franchise? It wasn't an unreasonable amount considering that he had an option to go to a proven winning and playoff team instead of being with a franchise stuck in a generational malaise. And there is no argument that the premium charge to stay here would have squeezed the cap or hindered us in future contract actions. 

Ottawa had a deliberate teardown not that long ago because it wanted to completely remake that franchise and for business reasons. I'm confident that their rebuild won't last nearly a generation as our rebuild seems to be. The problem with the Sabre franchise isn't that it made a decision to rebuild. It's the faulty execution that has kept this franchise in an extended abyss. What makes me uncomfortable with your Ottawa comparison is that you are comparing our failures to another failed franchise. How about comparing us to Jersey or Seattle that is a new expansion team? 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

The Sabres are doing it too.  NJ is just a little further ahead since they did not have to undo earlier attempts that went wrong.

[LGR4GM]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

How about paying Ullmark the premium he was asking for to remain with this dystopian franchise? It wasn't an unreasonable amount considering that he had an option to go to a proven winning and playoff team instead of being with a franchise stuck in a generational malaise. And there is no argument that the premium charge to stay here would have squeezed the cap or hindered us in future contract actions. 

Ottawa had a deliberate teardown not that long ago because it wanted to completely remake that franchise and for business reasons. I'm confident that their rebuild won't last nearly a generation as our rebuild seems to be. The problem with the Sabre franchise isn't that it made a decision to rebuild. It's the faulty execution that has kept this franchise in an extended abyss. What makes me uncomfortable with your Ottawa comparison is that you are comparing our failures to another failed franchise. How about comparing us to Jersey or Seattle that is a new expansion team? 

We could have signed Ullmark this offseason? News to me. 

Spending money to spend money doesn't guarantee a thing. When we're not in the cap basement next year I'm curious to see what angle you pivot to. 

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

What makes me uncomfortable with your Ottawa comparison is that you are comparing our failures to another failed franchise. How about comparing us to Jersey or Seattle that is a new expansion team? 

So the rebuilds that spent money and worked I would use but the ones that spent money and didn't work I can't use. Again, you keep equating spending to the cap with success. That's not how any of this works. 

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

What goalie? Name names. Also as you left this out, spending or not spending doesn't guarantee you to be successful. Ottawa spent a bunch this offseason... how they doin?

Not working for Ottawa yet, but working ok for Detroit so far, and really working well in NJ.  

It is not easy, no guarantee it will work (see Murray and Boterill), but it is a typical recipe - draft good young core talent, then add complimentary veteran  experience and talent around them.  The right players added to the right core for the the right contract value.   Lets toss in having a good coach and enough  leaders wearing the uniforms.   Lots of variables at work.  

Sabres rebuild asks these questions: 

Can Adams bring in the right vets and missing pieces?  

When will he try?  

Is Donny and his staff up to the task?  

[Marvin]

As a specific name whom we could have signed last off-season: I think our D would be better if Mark Pysyk were our #6D instead of Bryson.

As a point of philosophy, I personally would slot Jokiharu on my 3rd D pair.

I think a top 6 D of Samuelsson-Dahlin, Power-Lyubushkin, and Pysyk-Jokiharu would have fared better with the injuries and in complementary styles in each pairing.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

We could have signed Ullmark this offseason? News to me. 

Spending money to spend money doesn't guarantee a thing. When we're not in the cap basement next year I'm curious to see what angle you pivot to. 

So the rebuilds that spent money and worked I would use but the ones that spent money and didn't work I can't use. Again, you keep equating spending to the cap with success. That's not how any of this works. 

You are not comprehending the thrust of what I am saying. You are predictably distorting my comments to fit your narrative. What I am saying is that when a team takes the standard approach of rebuilding through the draft, it should also include bringing in support players to help bring along the young players. Steve Yzerman was involved with building cup teams in Detroit and Tampa. He then went back to Detroit to rebuild that roster. There is no question that his rebuild mostly centers around drafting and developing players. But if you examine this past offseason you would see that he judiciously added some veteran players to support his youthful squad. It's not a question of indiscriminately spending money. It's a question of being judicious and doing everything you can reasonably do to build a winner. Our record speaks for itself!

[LTS]

34 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are not comprehending the thrust of what I am saying. You are predictably distorting my comments to fit your narrative. What I am saying is that when a team takes the standard approach of rebuilding through the draft, it should also include bringing in support players to help bring along the young players. Steve Yzerman was involved with building cup teams in Detroit and Tampa. He then went back to Detroit to rebuild that roster. There is no question that his rebuild mostly centers around drafting and developing players. But if you examine this past offseason you would see that he judiciously added some veteran players to support his youthful squad. It's not a question of indiscriminately spending money. It's a question of being judicious and doing everything you can reasonably do to build a winner. Our record speaks for itself!

A word of caution on Detroit.  They ain't done anything yet.  If all of those changes have them just outside the playoffs at the end of the season then would you consider it successful?

Right now there are two approaches and unless one of them puts a team in the playoffs on a consistent basis then neither have proven themselves to be a success.  Moderately better in the standings, sure.  Right now it's wait and see...  no one has won until the votes are counted, in full.  The Sabres have a lot of youth and at some point I think the consideration will be that they've evaluated who stays and who gets traded to bring in that veteran support.  It wasn't going to be before this season, but it may very well be during this season, at the trade deadline, in the off-season.  We don't know yet... so we have to wait and see.

The Sabres established their path for this season, Detroit established theirs. Who is right?  We'll not know until the end.

[PerreaultForever]

22 hours ago, Kristian said:

Sure let the young guys learn…

They’ll be ready to play about half a season after Dahlin and Thompson have requested a trade…

Round and round we go.

Well that'll be unlikely as Thompson signed long term but if we don't win next year I could see Dahlin playing extreme hardball in his negotiations. No reason for him to want to stay in Buffalo at that point. 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Not working for Ottawa yet, but working ok for Detroit so far, and really working well in NJ.  

It is not easy, no guarantee it will work (see Murray and Boterill), but it is a typical recipe - draft good young core talent, then add complimentary veteran  experience and talent around them.  The right players added to the right core for the the right contract value.   Lets toss in having a good coach and enough  leaders wearing the uniforms.   Lots of variables at work.  

Sabres rebuild asks these questions: 

Can Adams bring in the right vets and missing pieces?  

When will he try?  

Is Donny and his staff up to the task?  

You're absolutely right, but there is still one more question.

Is it a good young core?

So far only Dahlin and Thompson fit that description. Maybe Samuelsson, see how it goes when he gets back. The rest, big question marks. 

[Pimlach]

2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You're absolutely right, but there is still one more question.

Is it a good young core?

So far only Dahlin and Thompson fit that description. Maybe Samuelsson, see how it goes when he gets back. The rest, big question marks. 

I say yes, it is a good young core?  You have a potential Norris Defenseman and a monster forward that is still getting better from the looks of it.  

Power and Cozens and Samuelsson plus a whole bunch of prospects. 

[Thorner]

8 hours ago, JohnC said:

How about paying Ullmark the premium he was asking for to remain with this dystopian franchise? It wasn't an unreasonable amount considering that he had an option to go to a proven winning and playoff team instead of being with a franchise stuck in a generational malaise. And there is no argument that the premium charge to stay here would have squeezed the cap or hindered us in future contract actions. 

Ottawa had a deliberate teardown not that long ago because it wanted to completely remake that franchise and for business reasons. I'm confident that their rebuild won't last nearly a generation as our rebuild seems to be. The problem with the Sabre franchise isn't that it made a decision to rebuild. It's the faulty execution that has kept this franchise in an extended abyss. What makes me uncomfortable with your Ottawa comparison is that you are comparing our failures to another failed franchise. How about comparing us to Jersey or Seattle that is a new expansion team? 

If you don’t have access to all the contacts and tools a GM, being paid to make the decisions, has at his disposal, no, a message board poster isn’t required to “name names” to prove their argument lol 

It’s enough to compare Adams’ work at goaltender vs/relative to the work across the league as a whole: Adams has not successfully addressed goaltending. Without being privy to the variables, on both sides of the equation, the best marker is results. 

Unless one wants to argue that Adams *could not* have improved the goaltending in 3 years? It’s just seeking to prove a negative and it’s folly.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Thorny