What is this team is missing to compete consistently?

[GASabresIUFAN]

For this team to compete for a playoff spot they need to avoid what exactly just happened.  5 game losing streaks can bury a season.  The Sabres are full of excuses.  They competed hard, injuries on defense, youth and inexperience, still learning how to win etc… Fill in your favorite here.  

The real issue for me is a poor depth especially on D and in net as well as a lack of true winning leadership on the team. KO, Z and Anderson are pro’s pros, but none have really significant winning experience.  Anderson has the most playoff experience when he played 19 playoff games for Ottawa in 2017.  The real leader in playoff experience is Tuch with 60 + games.  Bush is the D group leader in playoff games with 7 on the choking Leafs.  Girgensons has never played in the playoff and KO has only 24 games under his belt and has been mired in the Sabres losing culture now for 6+ years.

The lack of depth is on KA.  He shopped at Goodwill two years ago and upgraded to Wal-Mart this past season off-season.  He has 20 mill in cap space, a ton of draft picks and a deep forward pipeline but seems unwilling to utilize these tools to strengthen the team.  When injuries struck the fragile D group, he did nothing and the 5 game losing streak ensued. 

The team also lacks someone like Teppo Numminen to bolster the experience of a youth D group and to help them keep their composure.  Even during this streak had they kept their composure they may have been able to earn some points.  They lead TB early in the 3rd before giving up 3 straight.  Tied with Boston after 2 before again falling apart in the 3rd.  Had we gone 1-3-1 in the last 5, I think the team and the fans would feel much better about things thinking we had weathered the injury issues and can now move forward.

That lack of leadership is also on KA.  I’m not sure if it was @Weave or @inkman who raised this issue in the off-season, but we discussed it somewhat then, but the need really showed itself over the last 5 games.

So how do we go forward from here?  I’d still very much like to see make a move for additional D help.  Sooner the better, but I do realize it’s hard to make deals in season, especially this early.  However, this is the year to try an in season move for help.  There are 3 high end guys worth “tanking” for.  Van remains a likely target.  There are probably others.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

The roster is not there quite yet and with injuries we see the lack of depth.  Mule is developing into the defensive anchor they need, but it will be another 2 years for him to get there.  Power will be the best #3 (technically the second best D man on the squad) in the NHL.  Dahlin will be in the Norris conversation every year by next year and will win some of them at some point.

The forwards are okay, but need a better bottom 6.  They also need a legit 45 - 50 goal scorer on wing.

They need a legit #1 goaler.  The bets are in and on Levi.  His prime will begin in 2030.  God help us all.

[Curt]

31 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

For this team to compete for a playoff spot they need to avoid what exactly just happened.  5 game losing streaks can bury a season.  The Sabres are full of excuses.  They competed hard, injuries on defense, youth and inexperience, still learning how to win etc… Fill in your favorite here.  

The real issue for me is a poor depth especially on D and in net as well as a lack of true winning leadership on the team. KO, Z and Anderson are pro’s pros, but none have really significant winning experience.  Anderson has the most playoff experience when he played 19 playoff games for Ottawa in 2017.  The real leader in playoff experience is Tuch with 60 + games.  Bush is the D group leader in playoff games with 7 on the choking Leafs.  Girgensons has never played in the playoff and KO has only 24 games under his belt and has been mired in the Sabres losing culture now for 6+ years.

The lack of depth is on KA.  He shopped at Goodwill two years ago and upgraded to Wal-Mart this past season off-season.  He has 20 mill in cap space, a ton of draft picks and a deep forward pipeline but seems unwilling to utilize these tools to strengthen the team.  When injuries struck the fragile D group, he did nothing and the 5 game losing streak ensued. 

The team also lacks someone like Teppo Numminen to bolster the experience of a youth D group and to help them keep their composure.  Even during this streak had they kept their composure they may have been able to earn some points.  They lead TB early in the 3rd before giving up 3 straight.  Tied with Boston after 2 before again falling apart in the 3rd.  Had we gone 1-3-1 in the last 5, I think the team and the fans would feel much better about things thinking we had weathered the injury issues and can now move forward.

That lack of leadership is also on KA.  I’m not sure if it was @Weave or @inkman who raised this issue in the off-season, but we discussed it somewhat then, but the need really showed itself over the last 5 games.

So how do we go forward from here?  I’d still very much like to see make a move for additional D help.  Sooner the better, but I do realize it’s hard to make deals in season, especially this early.  However, this is the year to try an in season move for help.  There are 3 high end guys worth “tanking” for.  Van remains a likely target.  There are probably others.  

What I think needs to improve.

1) Better/more consistent goaltending 

2) A little more depth in the middle/bottom of the D group.

3) More experience/consistency in the forward group.

[GoPuckYourself]

I said it at the start of the season that we lacked bottom pairing defensemen and depth in general at the position. If we can deal a player like Casey Middlestadt possibly a draft pick thrown in for a 27/28 year old D preferably top 4 (might be a stretch) then we’d be alot better off.

I liked Comrie at the start of the season but he really lets in some garbage goals at crucial times. We must get either Levi or Portillo signed next season otherwise I don’t see how are situation will get better with Anderson most likely retiring.

Id like to now get bigger even if it’s the bottom 6, be harder to play against, get big grinding nasty human beings to make it rough for other teams to want to play us. I’ve watched countless times our guys get pushed around and want to go the NY Rangers route of getting tougher.

[Porous Five Hole]

Owen Power is 19 years old  

Peterka is 20 

Cozens, Krebs & Quinn are 21

Dahlin & Mule are 22  

If all these guys were Tage’s age (25) and we are still bad, then I would be concerned. But the team went youth movement/draft and develop. 
 

Tuch, Skinner, VO and other complementary pieces aren’t enough to be a playoff team today. It is what it is.   

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

28 minutes ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

The roster is not there quite yet and with injuries we see the lack of depth.  Mule is developing into the defensive anchor they need, but it will be another 2 years for him to get there.  Power will be the best #3 (technically the second best D man on the squad) in the NHL.  Dahlin will be in the Norris conversation every year by next year and will win some of them at some point.

The forwards are okay, but need a better bottom 6.  They also need a legit 45 - 50 goal scorer on wing.

They need a legit #1 goaler.  The bets are in and on Levi.  His prime will begin in 2030.  God help us all.

The waiting for Levi strategy doesn't work for me either.  What is the best case scenario?  He signs this off-season, goes to the AHL next year dominates and earns a late season recall.  The maybe he shares the NHL next in 2024/25.  That's the best case.  What happens if he proves he needs 2 or 3 AHL seasons to get ready?  What then?  

UPL's continued poor AHL numbers tell me he is not an NHL goalie.  He is being outplayed again by Houser.  

KA need to move on from Anderson after this season and get a veteran in with some tread left on the tire.  He needs a minimum of another 2 year bridge guy.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Tuch, Skinner, VO and other complementary pieces aren’t enough to be a playoff team today. It is what it is.   

That's the problem.  It doesn't have to be this way.  KA could have and should have brought in someone with winning experience on the blueline to help accelerate the development of the kids.  Someone like Schenn or Stralman on the cheap side for example.  In fact, I'd be contacting Van about Schenn and Bos about Stralman today.  

[matter2003]

More experience. There are going to be ups and downs and growing pains for the youngest team in the NHL.  Lessons to learn, mistakes to make, and things to figure out.  

That is probably half of it.  Comrie has been a little disappointing based on what he did last year with a not great Winnipeg D in front of him that allowed similar types of chances as the Sabres do.  Maybe a few less breakaways tho...except he stops most of those.  

Need to be better at not turning pucks over in the O Zone trying to be creative but get a little too careless and turn pucks over for odd man rushes back the other way against.  

Samuelsson has been a major loss. He is by far their best traditional D man. Joker to a lesser degree, mainly because of who they have had to put in his place.  

 

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

That's the problem.  It doesn't have to be this way.  KA could have and should have brought in someone with winning experience on the blueline to help accelerate the development of the kids.  Someone like Schenn or Stralman on the cheap side for example.  In fact, I'd be contacting Van about Schenn and Bos about Stralman today.  

It's not time for that yet.  Maybe next year we can discuss that.  Right now it's make incremental improvements to get you close to the playoffs...I have said from the beginning this is likely an 87-90 point team this year.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, matter2003 said:

More experience. There are going to be ups and downs and growing pains for the youngest team in the NHL.  Lessons to learn, mistakes to make, and things to figure out.  

That is probably half of it.  Comrie has been a little disappointing based on what he did last year with a not great Winnipeg D in front of him that allowed similar types of chances as the Sabres do.  Maybe a few less breakaways tho...except he stops most of those.  

Need to be better at not turning pucks over in the O Zone trying to be creative but get a little too careless and turn pucks over for odd man rushes back the other way against.  

Samuelsson has been a major loss. He is by far their best traditional D man. Joker to a lesser degree, mainly because of who they have had to put in his place.  

 

It's not time for that yet.  Maybe next year we can discuss that.  Right now it's make incremental improvements to get you close to the playoffs...I have said from the beginning this is likely an 87-90 point team this year.

Why not yet?  Those two (Schenn and Stralman) can't be worse than Pilut or Fitzgerald, they would be cheap to acquire, won't take up much cap space and bring significant experience  and leadership which our D group really needs.  Schenn is a + player on a bad Vancouver team. Stralman has over 110 games of playoff experience.  He obviously isn't the player he once was, but who cares at this point.  His leadership alone is worth the risk.

[Porous Five Hole]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That's the problem.  It doesn't have to be this way.  KA could have and should have brought in someone with winning experience on the blueline to help accelerate the development of the kids.  Someone like Schenn or Stralman on the cheap side for example.  In fact, I'd be contacting Van about Schenn and Bos about Stralman today.  

You just fundamentally disagree with the Sabres philosophy. They want their young guns to be playing a role higher than they should be today. The Sabres think that’s the best way to develop their young studs. 
 

As for your examples, Stralman is cooked.  Schenn is interesting, but I don’t want him playing over Dahlin, Power, Joki, or Mule.
 

To me, Lyubushkin is essentially a better Schenn who plays the game differently.  And for better or worse, Bryson is here through next year. So was there really any room for Schenn anyway? Would he want to sit in the press box until injuries happened? On a last place team? I just don’t see it…

[inkman]

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Porous Five Hole said:

You just fundamentally disagree with the Sabres philosophy. They want their young guns to be playing a role higher than they should be today. The Sabres think that’s the best way to develop their young studs. 
 

As for your examples, Stralman is cooked.  Schenn is interesting, but I don’t want him playing over Dahlin, Power, Joki, or Mule.
 

To me, Lyubushkin is essentially a better Schenn who plays the game differently.  And for better or worse, Bryson is here through next year. So was there really any room for Schenn anyway? Would he want to sit in the press box until injuries happened? On a last place team? I just don’t see it…

I agree with the Sabres general philosophy.  I’m not talking about bringing in some to play over core guys, I’m talking about depth and leadership.  I’m talking about having a Vinnie Hinostroza quality 7th and 8th D who has playoff experience instead of AHL quality players like Fitz and Pilut.  I’m talking about making sure the gap between the 4th D and the 7th D in quality isn’t the Grand Canyon like it is right now.  

2 minutes ago, inkman said:

Are you saying KA needs to grow a pair?

[inkman]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I agree with the Sabres general philosophy.  I’m not talking about bringing in some to play over core guys, I’m talking about depth and leadership.  I’m talking about having a Vinnie Hinostroza quality 7th and 8th D who has playoff experience instead of AHL quality players like Fitz and Pilut.  I’m talking about making sure the gap between the 4th D and the 7th D in quality isn’t the Grand Canyon like it is right now.  

Are you saying KA needs to grow a pair?

 They need players with large cohones.  Not sure if that means Kevyn needs them or not. 

[Crusader1969]

This is a easy one 

need 3 things - top flight goalie, another mobile 6’3 220lb mobile Dman and experience 

They will get there 

[Xzy89c]

we need centers. Mittlestad is not a good player. too slow, especially when playing center. Thompson and Cousins are unfortunately wingers playing center. People will argue with that but it shows up against good teams with better centers. Neither are top centers in the league. If your argument is Thompson's stats, he plays a ton and is first shooting option on power play. He is going to have good stats. He would be better as winger, no draws, which he is awful at, and not having to go deep in dzone. 

 

We have very good DMan with Samuelsson, Dahlin and Power. Very Good. We were lucky to get Power and Dahlin when we won lottery. Outside of Mcdavid, Edmonton picked first three other times for 2 not great forwards and one awful one. They never were able to get the great puck moving d man stud that we have 2 of now. If Edmonton had a Dahlin from a draft they would be cup challengers.

 

[nfreeman]

IMHO the biggest need is to get better and more consistent production out of Mitts, Cozens, Skinner, Tuch and KO.  Those are supposed to be the core forwards who deliver when needed, and in this losing streak they have failed to do so.

[PromoTheRobot]

Experience and seasoning.

[PerreaultForever]

Well there are a number of things wrong but the lack of production by multiple people is certainly contributing. 

1) the slow build plan is their plan but it didn't need to be this slow imo and more should have been done to fill holes on the roster - we beat that discussion to a pulp in the summer and going into the season though. Opportunity missed imo but you don't win with an all rookie team. 

2) There is no depth. 

3) It's not a balanced team and lacks identity. Okay so we are the fast attacking team maybe but only part of the roster can play that way itself. There's simply too many rookies and you get multiple struggling rookies at once (and by rookie you can include the not quite there yet types who are a few years in)

4) Skinner

5) Skinner's contract

6) KO as captain. Is it working? I think not. 

7) desire and a winning culture. It's slipping away. I can see it each game little by little. The blank looks, the lack of emotion. They're getting used to it AGAIN. 

I could go on and rant all day but that's enough. Most of this team is just there, nothing else, and they just lack. 

 

[Taro T]

4 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

IMHO the biggest need is to get better and more consistent production out of Mitts, Cozens, Skinner, Tuch and KO.  Those are supposed to be the core forwards who deliver when needed, and in this losing streak they have failed to do so.

Have them ready to play against AZ, keep primarily getting the line matchups you need against the B's rather than abandoning that after 3 minutes of the 3rd, and they go minimum 1-3-1 the last 5 and likely 2-3-0.  And simply show up for & win against the Yotes & the meltdowns we've been witnessing the last week don't happen.

The other 3 games of the past 5, they were playing teams that were better than them but kept them competitive for the majority of each game.  (Truth be told, the B's game was there too.)

The premise of the OP is flawed IMHO.  This team HAS been competitive in nearly every game.  They've won roughly 1/2 of their games and they likely will be back at 0.500 by 11 PM Tuesday night.  That's progress over past seasons.  (Yes, we're at the point of the season things often go kerplewy, but IMHO this season feels different.)

The weird thing to this season is 15 games in, they've only been in 1 game that went to OT.  They haven't picked up that "dreaded" loser point yet this year.  But had 3 of the L's come in OT/SO then tomorrow's W would essentially have them at 0.600 which is almost exactly where they need to be to not just have an improved season but a playoff qualifying game season.  Even with all the excuses decried above.

 

[Refuting]

The answer is simple. A lack of fundamental defense. Defense at the most basic level 

 

[Taro T]

21 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well there are a number of things wrong but the lack of production by multiple people is certainly contributing. 

1) the slow build plan is their plan but it didn't need to be this slow imo and more should have been done to fill holes on the roster - we beat that discussion to a pulp in the summer and going into the season though. Opportunity missed imo but you don't win with an all rookie team. 

2) There is no depth. 

3) It's not a balanced team and lacks identity. Okay so we are the fast attacking team maybe but only part of the roster can play that way itself. There's simply too many rookies and you get multiple struggling rookies at once (and by rookie you can include the not quite there yet types who are a few years in)

4) Skinner

5) Skinner's contract

6) KO as captain. Is it working? I think not. 

7) desire and a winning culture. It's slipping away. I can see it each game little by little. The blank looks, the lack of emotion. They're getting used to it AGAIN. 

I could go on and rant all day but that's enough. Most of this team is just there, nothing else, and they just lack. 

 

Agree completely w/ point 1 and to large extent w/ point 2.

And it may make people feel better getting the rants off their chests, but at this point it's very unlikely any moves get made as nobody is selling cheap at this point of the season.  Those additional moves so many of us hoped to see needed to happen this summer.  Hoping Adams finds a Botterill to give the Sabres a Scandella for a 4th, but doubt that trade is there.

The F depth has been fine to date.  The D depth, while lacking the extra top 4 D man so many of us hoped to see (they needed to bring in 2 guys, really curious if they misjudged Pilut's ability & thought they'd found that 2nd guy by bringing him back; doubt it, but still am curious), SHOULDN'T be losing 3 guys all Jokiharju's age or younger - those guys just stay healthy in general & bounce back quick.  Unfortunately 2 of them got head injuries which you can't really do a whole lot more to prevent & the other had his knee twist awkwardly on a routine play.  Lyubushkin could've been expected to have his injury issues - combo of the way he plays & his age, but really don't see how it could/should be expected to have 4 of the top 5 all miss time 15% of the way into the season.

The good news is, once the D gets healthy, we shouldn't expect to see 3 key guys all out at the same time.  The bad news is, the F's are due for some nick ups keeping guys out here or there and there is absolutely no tangible depth beyond the 2 goalies that are on the big squad.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Taro T

[OverPowerYou]

I’ve been saying this for months. We need a household name player who can be a veteran leader and score goals at will. 

[Buffalonill]

16 minutes ago, OverPowerYou said:

I’ve been saying this for months. We need a household name player who can be a veteran leader and score goals at will. 

Its not that easy players like that just dont become available. 

 

 

[msw2112]

13 minutes ago, OverPowerYou said:

I’ve been saying this for months. We need a household name player who can be a veteran leader and score goals at will. 

Who is available that fits this category?  I saw another post that said we needed a 50 goal scorer on the wing?  Who doesn't?  How many 50 goal scorers are there in the league and how many of them are available for trade?  I think we are developing our own 50 goal scorer in Thompson, alhtough he's a center, not a wing.

Back to the original post, what this team needs the most right now is solid, reliable goaltending that can steal an occasional game.  Comrie stole one game in Edmonton, and that's about it.  The defense will get better (for this season) when Jokihariu and Samuelsson get back, and it will get better in the long term as the younger guys mature.

Adding an expensive veteran at this point doesn't feel like the right move to me.  Yes, they have the cap space, but I think they want to give the ice time to the younger guys so they can develop.  Plus, they WILL need the cap space as the contracts of the younger guys come up.

Edited November 14, 2022 by msw2112

[Claude Balls]

Goons, many many goons. Oh, and a true #1 goalie.