The big problem with the Sabres

[dudacek]

Seems to me there is still a perception out there (and by that, I mean on Sabrespace) that the Sabres aren’t big enough.

I think people need to look a bit closer at the trees.

• Our best centre is 6’7 225 pounds
• Our best winger is 6’4 220
• Our best defenceman is 6’3 210
• Our 2nd best is 6’6 220
• Our shutdown blueliner is 6’4 230

I defy you to find another team with a core that physically imposing. And they all can skate.

Add Lyubushkin Cozens Okposo and Girgensons on the next tier, couple it with the roster’s speed, 4-line depth and attacking style and this is a team that is built wear you down.

I don’t think their 3rd period success so far this year is a coincidence.

[mjd1001]

You make a good point, but size is only valuable how you use it:

-Tage is big but not physical at all in the 'traditional' sense. But his reach is used for production.

-Ryan Reeves is often considered one fo the tougher and better fighters in the league now. He is a total of 6'2 and 225.  Not even close to 'big' comared to dozens and dozens of other players in the league.

Give me 2 players with the EXACT same skills, but one is 2 inches and 25 lbs heavier and I'll take the bigger one.  But size for the sake of size isn't really all that useful. Boston has more than a couple players that are average (or below average) in size but I feel are much more likely to come out of the corner with a puck than guys who are much bigger.  Look at big hits. No one would say Mike Peca was even close to 'big' yet he was one of the most feared hitters in the league. Lyubushkin plays physical and he certainly lays out some big league hits, yet he is listed at only 200 lbs.

[dudacek]

11 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

You make a good point, but size is only valuable how you use it:

-Tage is big but not physical at all in the 'traditional' sense. But his reach is used for production.

-Ryan Reeves is often considered one fo the tougher and better fighters in the league now. He is a total of 6'2 and 225.  Not even close to 'big' comared to dozens and dozens of other players in the league.

Give me 2 players with the EXACT same skills, but one is 2 inches and 25 lbs heavier and I'll take the bigger one.  But size for the sake of size isn't really all that useful. Boston has more than a couple players that are average (or below average) in size but I feel are much more likely to come out of the corner with a puck than guys who are much bigger.  Look at big hits. No one would say Mike Peca was even close to 'big' yet he was one of the most feared hitters in the league. Lyubushkin plays physical and he certainly lays out some big league hits, yet he is listed at only 200 lbs.

I think this is overly focused on the mistake of conflating size with beating people up.

Mule, Tage, Dahlin, Power, Tuch - every single player uses his size to physically dominate a majority of opponents. I’m talking about forcing turnovers, protecting pucks, winning battles and making plays.

Their size is making them hockey players who are very hard to play against.

1-on-1 they are creating difficult matchups for opposing coaches.

Edited November 3, 2022 by dudacek

[Believer]

We don’t want fighters… We want defenders… You start it… we’ll  finish it… We have several guys who won’t hesitate to mix it up… 

[bob_sauve28]

39 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Seems to me there is still a perception out there (and by that, I mean on Sabrespace) that the Sabres aren’t big enough.

I think people need to look a bit closer at the trees.

• Our best centre is 6’7 225 pounds
• Our best winger is 6’4 220
• Our best defenceman is 6’3 210
• Our 2nd best is 6’6 220
• Our shutdown blueliner is 6’4 230

I defy you to find another team with a core that physically imposing. And they all can skate.

Add Lyubushkin Cozens Okposo and Girgensons on the next tier, couple it with the roster’s speed, 4-line depth and attacking style and this is a team that is built wear you down.

I don’t think their 3rd period success so far this year is a coincidence.

And they are young. So they will only get stronger as they grow into men. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Seems to me there is still a perception out there (and by that, I mean on Sabrespace) that the Sabres aren’t big enough.

I think people need to look a bit closer at the trees.

• Our best centre is 6’7 225 pounds
• Our best winger is 6’4 220
• Our best defenceman is 6’3 210
• Our 2nd best is 6’6 220
• Our shutdown blueliner is 6’4 230

I defy you to find another team with a core that physically imposing. And they all can skate.

Add Lyubushkin Cozens Okposo and Girgensons on the next tier, couple it with the roster’s speed, 4-line depth and attacking style and this is a team that is built wear you down.

I don’t think their 3rd period success so far this year is a coincidence.

Don't know that people will ever believe the Sabres aren't the Habs in terms of size.  And, even in the Briere - Drury days the Sabres had pretty good team size overall.  It's just their game when they were on was always speed & skill and except for 2 glaring exceptions never about size and hitting.  (The original Nolan squads were singularly about hitting and Murray attempted to build LA East.  Other than that, it's always been about speed.)

Considering how the game is evolving into a quicker less blatently obviously violent game, don't know that the Sabres will ever be viewed as large.  (Reputations remain long past their expiration date.)  And with guys like Savoie and Östlund in the wings, this is likely the biggest they'll be for the foreseeable future.

[dudacek]

It’s not really about violence though.

The crucial factor here is how our best players are huge and are starting to take advantage of that.

The complaint from other team’s is going to be “we can’t penetrate past those octopi when they defend and we can’t take the puck away from those redwoods when they attack.”

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Considering how the game is evolving into a quicker less blatently obviously violent game, don't know that the Sabres will ever be viewed as large.  (Reputations remain long past their expiration date.)  And with guys like Savoie and Östlund in the wings, this is likely the biggest they'll be for the foreseeable future.

 

[Doohicksie]

2 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

-Tage is big but not physical at all in the 'traditional' sense. But his reach is used for production.

Can you imagine how tough it is to body check him over the course of a game?  He doesn't have to initiate to wear opponents down, he just needs to absorb their futile energy without getting knocked off his pins.  He's quite good at that.

[SwampD]

Is this really a thing? Who has been saying that the Sabres don't have size?

[K-9]

Just now, SwampD said:

Is this really a thing? Who has been saying that the Sabres don't have size?

I believe it was referenced in the GDT last night that the Penguins looked so much bigger than us. 

[DarthEbriate]

Judge you by my size, do you? As well you should not. For my ally is the Concept of Kassian. And a powerful ally it is.

The thing about size is it's useful if properly applied. But we're fast. We're fast enough to beat size and fast enough to beat regular fast. Speed (play + mental) crushes size. And big + speed (play + mental) is better than regular fast.  We're getting there. We're big, fast, and we're learning to play faster and think faster. That's exciting.

The physicality, initiating contact, initiating mental intimidation through physical contact... that we won't know with this team until they get a taste of the playoffs. How do they adapt and change? Who can handle it, who can't? But don't worry about that yet -- that's part of the journey, but that's the Second Act and we're still super early in the First.

[Doohicksie]

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

Is this really a thing? Who has been saying that the Sabres don't have size?

It's like that Honda commercial that gets a lot of airplay during the games for the out-of-towners.  No one ever said they couldn't win motorcycle races or any of that other stuff.

[SwampD]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I believe it was referenced in the GDT last night that the Penguins looked so much bigger than us. 

They did look bigger, though. But I thought it was determined that it was the all white unis? (The Pens didn't look bigger to me, btw.)

Edited November 3, 2022 by SwampD

[SwampD]

I'll also add that I don't even care who the bigger team was last night, because the way the Sabres were using their bodies on the boards and winning those battles, they played bigger so it doesn't matter.

Edited November 3, 2022 by SwampD

[dudacek]

12 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Is this really a thing? Who has been saying that the Sabres don't have size?

People will talk about the team needing to get bigger off and on, which usually devolves into discussions about how important size really is or isn’t.

This thread was inspired more though by me realizing how exceptionally big the Sabres core is and what a weapon that can be, and how no one ever really talks about that.

Edited November 3, 2022 by dudacek

[matter2003]

11 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Can you imagine how tough it is to body check him over the course of a game?  He doesn't have to initiate to wear opponents down, he just needs to absorb their futile energy without getting knocked off his pins.  He's quite good at that.

Especially if he moves his arm slightly and smaller opponents run face first into an elbow

[nfreeman]

30 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It’s not really about violence though.

The crucial factor here is how our best players are huge and are starting to take advantage of that.

The complaint from other team’s is going to be “we can’t penetrate past those octopi when they defend and we can’t take the puck away from those redwoods when they attack.”

 

I agree with most of this, but violence and intimidation are still part of the game.

I'm not saying we need a fighter or a goon, but a guy like Tom Wilson or prime Milan Lucic would be a huge addition to the top 6, as would a Pronger or Kronwall type in the top 4 (as they would for any team).

I'd guess that KA knows this and isn't opposed to drafting one if he's the right guy.

[grinreaper]

Wow. What a coincidence. I just finished a survey of most of the girlfriends and wives of the Sabres players. Several of them just laughed when I questioned the size of their significant other. Two of them separately laughed and said that their guy may not look like he's really big but can really grow on ya. Being the shy guy that I am I didn't ask for further clarification. 

[Zamboni]

Size of the team is certainly not an issue. At all. And I think we have just enough “grit” on the team to hold our own against the majority of the league.

[Thorner]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Is this really a thing? Who has been saying that the Sabres don't have size?

The only thing I’m hearing in media circles these days consistently is that the Sabres have arrived and are for real. They are getting their props and aren’t the team everyone is doubting anymore. 

There’s the odd apple here and there preaching caution but they are quickly falling by the wayside 

[Thorner]

Except for my friend Adam who’s about to place a sizeable bet with me that the Jets finish above the Sabres 

[Thorner]

Lol Marek and Elliot absolutely drooling over Tage right now. 

Elliot: “I don’t know how you stop this guy. Like, like, like Nathan MacKinnon can handle him, uh, I think, but there’s not a lot of guys that can.”

Re: relevance to thread - Elliot goes on to say the Sabres remind him of COLORADO in that they are a group of “powerfully built people  that can get through anybody” 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Thorny

[inkman]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I agree with most of this, but violence and intimidation are still part of the game.

I'm not saying we need a fighter or a goon, but a guy like Tom Wilson or prime Milan Lucic would be a huge addition to the top 6, as would a Pronger or Kronwall type in the top 4 (as they would for any team).

I'd guess that KA knows this and isn't opposed to drafting one if he's the right guy.

His drafting, to date, would suggest it’s not a concern of Adams at all.  If this team makes the post season, it’ll be interesting to see how they handle the unmitigated violence that is the NHL postseason.   Cozens, Lybushkin, Samuelsson, will certainly step up.  From what I’ve seen, most of the young guys don’t take crap either put the playoffs are a different animal.  Maybe it’ll take a run to see if they have what it takes to survive in the playoffs. 

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, inkman said:

His drafting, to date, would suggest it’s not a concern of Adams at all.  If this team makes the post season, it’ll be interesting to see how they handle the unmitigated violence that is the NHL postseason.   Cozens, Lybushkin, Samuelsson, will certainly step up.  From what I’ve seen, most of the young guys don’t take crap either put the playoffs are a different animal.  Maybe it’ll take a run to see if they have what it takes to survive in the playoffs. 

It doesn't get nastier than what we saw in the AHL playoffs last year. Certainly didn't slow Krebs and Peterka.

(I'd add Tuch to your list as someone who's proven in that environment and Okposo and Girgs will be there)