Attendance issues at whatever our arena is named now

[LabattBlue]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I want to emphasize that I don't have any criticism for the skeptics. It's the organization's responsibility to win them back. The fans didn't fail the franchise; the franchise failed the fans. It's now their responsibility to win their trust back. 

Thank you for an outstanding post. 

[Contempt]

The wife called to inquire about a box or club level tickets to the Vancouver game for a corporate outing in a couple weeks. Prices were not what I would call acceptable for a team that does not win in an arena that is mostly empty. Needless to say the purchase was not made. She might call again closer to the game and see if they are back in the realm of reality.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Contempt said:

The wife called to inquire about a box or club level tickets to the Vancouver game for a corporate outing in a couple weeks. Prices were not what I would call acceptable for a team that does not win in an arena that is mostly empty. Needless to say the purchase was not made. She might call again closer to the game and see if they are back in the realm of reality.

What was the price they were requiring? And do you know if the marketing people are willing to negotiate or is it a set price? 

[PromoTheRobot]

3 hours ago, Contempt said:

The wife called to inquire about a box or club level tickets to the Vancouver game for a corporate outing in a couple weeks. Prices were not what I would call acceptable for a team that does not win in an arena that is mostly empty. Needless to say the purchase was not made. She might call again closer to the game and see if they are back in the realm of reality.

Did you think you were gonna haggle a price?

EDIT: Now you got me curious. VAN game is a Tuesday night with a Western conference team. Not exactly a marquee game. I'm going to assume for a corporate event you want clubs? Price range $93 to $132. Was that price unacceptable? Maybe sideline lower bowl for $115? Still too much?  What were you expecting to pay?  (Those prices incl fees btw.)

Edited October 30, 2022 by PromoTheRobot

[JohnC]

18 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Did you think you were gonna haggle a price?

EDIT: Now you got me curious. VAN game is a Tuesday night with a Western conference team. Not exactly a marquee game. I'm going to assume for a corporate event you want clubs? Price range $93 to $132. Was that price unacceptable? Maybe sideline lower bowl for $115? Still too much?  What were you expecting to pay?  (Those prices incl fees btw.)

Is there wiggle room in the pricing if it is a group purchase?

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, JohnC said:

Is there wiggle room in the pricing if it is a group purchase?

I doubt it. 

[matter2003]

23 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

They've been winning the last three months ofregular season play.

Part of the problem are the Bills. Sabres have always lagged in attendance while football is still on. If attendance still sucks in February with the Sabres in the hunt for the playoffs then this market isn't an NHL market anymore.

Yeah this is a thing. Attendence always picks up after the Bills season ends.

[matter2003]

On 10/28/2022 at 6:48 PM, sabremike said:

The single biggest factor in STH value is playoff access. The team has all but put up giant advertisements saying "We have zero intention of making the playoff this season and probably the next". Shouldn't be surprising that Sabres season tickets are selling like cans of herpes (the embarrassingly crappy "benefits" are the icing on the crap cake).

 

Ehh...I don't really agree with this. They are a good young team with a lot of talent who played at a playoff pace once they made the Eichel trade and the players got acclimated.

I expect an 87-90 point finish this year and missing the playoffs with significant improvement and a playoff berth next year.

I have seen nothing so far this season that would make me think this is not possible.

[Contempt]

29 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Did you think you were gonna haggle a price?

EDIT: Now you got me curious. VAN game is a Tuesday night with a Western conference team. Not exactly a marquee game. I'm going to assume for a corporate event you want clubs? Price range $93 to $132. Was that price unacceptable? Maybe sideline lower bowl for $115? Still too much?  What were you expecting to pay?  (Those prices incl fees btw.)

Yes, and they dropped the box price almost a grand virtually immediately. I'll bet they drop it more.  We'll see.

And the point is, what are those odds those tickets get sold? Slim? None? How many other people are going to come in and also make a big concessions bill too? Not that many.  I get protecting your margin, but you can't take a margin to the bank.  You have a person on the phone ASKING to spend thousands of dollars on a game that basically nobody wants to go to.

The initial call was made before the West Coast trip. We'll see what happens.

9 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I doubt it. 

Everything on this planet is negotiable.

Also, if you have lots of unsold seats in your arena the law of supply and demand tells us your price point is too high. Keep your price point and have empty seats and no upsales (concessions, parking, merch) or lower your price point and have additional upsales.  It's not super complex.  

Edited October 30, 2022 by Contempt

[PromoTheRobot]

2 minutes ago, Contempt said:

Yes, and they dropped the box price almost a grand virtually immediately. I'll bet they drop it more.  We'll see.

And the point is, what are those odds those tickets get sold? Slim? None? How many other people are going to come in and also make a big concessions bill too? Not that many.  I get protecting your margin, but you can't take a margin to the bank.  You have a person on the phone ASKING to spend thousands of dollars on a game that basically nobody wants to go to.

The initial call was made before the West Coast trip. We'll see what happens.

Everything on this planet is negotiable.

Since ticket revenue is shared with visiting teams, I though the NHL holds the line with teams somewhat. They certainly don't want another Rigas situation papering the house.

[Contempt]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Since ticket revenue is shared with visiting teams, I though the NHL holds the line with teams somewhat. They certainly don't want another Rigas situation papering the house.

Splitting half is better than splitting $0

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, Contempt said:

Splitting half is better than splitting $0

So it's not that it's too much, you are just holding out for a deal.

[Contempt]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

So it's not that it's too much, you are just holding out for a deal.

It's both. It's not my money so IDGAF. But when you look at Ticketmaster and see a half sold house why do you walk in and pay full price if you don't have to? If they have someone else wanting to buy that box that night, pay full price, and have a huge concession bill too then sell it to them, more power to them.  I'm betting they don't have that and the salesman on the other end of the phone needs the sale way more than the wife needs the box. They can just as easily go to dinner with the clients instead, eat insanely well, and be just as happy.

I don't feel bad for PSG at all, they have no issue nickel and diming people all day long and the "dynamic pricing" crap just screws people too.  They're selling ad space on the jerseys next. How about you worry about filling the house first? Then sell out the crest.

[PromoTheRobot]

7 minutes ago, Contempt said:

It's both. It's not my money so IDGAF. But when you look at Ticketmaster and see a half sold house why do you walk in and pay full price if you don't have to? If they have someone else wanting to buy that box that night, pay full price, and have a huge concession bill too then sell it to them, more power to them.  I'm betting they don't have that and the salesman on the other end of the phone needs the sale way more than the wife needs the box. They can just as easily go to dinner with the clients instead, eat insanely well, and be just as happy.

I don't feel bad for PSG at all, they have no issue nickel and diming people all day long and the "dynamic pricing" crap just screws people too.  They're selling ad space on the jerseys next. How about you worry about filling the house first? Then sell out the crest.

You mean like by winning? 

[Contempt]

11 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You mean like by winning? 

That's one way to do it, but there are other things that can help.  

In all seriousness, I'm considering coming up on my own for the Red Wings game just after Christmas. Why on Earth would I buy full price tickets from the Sabres?  The ONLY way that happens is if the team is blowing everyone's doors off for the next month and a half. Otherwise, that's a game a STH wants to dump and I'd rather let them get some of their money back and get myself in the door and into a better seat for less money too. Cheapest ticket from the team for that game is $40.55 and looking at the seating chart the building is 3/4 unsold for that night.  You think it's really worth $41?  I don't.  That seat is worth MAYBE half that right now and probably more like 25%. Maybe the valuation changes if the team does exceptionally well for a while but right now that's what it is. The Sabres can either accept that or eat empty seats.

Here's an example of how to sell seats.  My kid is playing a high school game at Wells Fargo Center in February.  It costs us $100 a person.  For that $100 we get lower bowl seats to the Flyers/Oilers game that night which are ~$115 face value to start with before fees, dinner at XFinity Live pre-game, AND the kid gets to play a full length high school hockey game on the real NHL ice that afternoon.  It's not a screaming deal, but it's at least value for money that I can't get buying a ticket from a STH.  It's also a way for the Flyers to fill seats on a Thursday night in February.  It's also $400 the Flyers are going to get from me that they normally wouldn't plus they know that once I'm there I'm probably going to have a couple beers at XFinity Live pre-game (which they own) and I'm probably going to have some concessions (crab fries at a minimum) and some additional beers at the game so that will be at least another $100 from me and from every other family there. It adds up.  Or, they could have left the seat empty by demanding full price for it or not packaging it up in an attractive way and not gotten any of the ancillary sales. either  The only other Flyers game I'm going to this year is v. the Sabres in April and I'm not paying a dime for that other than to park my car. I can't stand the Flyers and I'll be spending more with them than I do with the Sabres this year.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Contempt

[Porous Five Hole]

Attendance for Thursday and tonight were more than any regular season game not attached to RJ nights last year. 

[Contempt]

4 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Attendance for Thursday and tonight were more than any regular season game not attached to RJ nights last year. 

According to ESPN tonight was 14,547 and Thursday was 12,735.

The other things about tonight is that, for people traveling in to see the Bills it would have been a twofer opportunity.  Had I been going to the Packers game I almost certainly would have gone to the Sabres game tonight.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Contempt

[Flashsabre]

1 hour ago, Contempt said:

According to ESPN tonight was 14,547 and Thursday was 12,735.

The other things about tonight is that, for people traveling in to see the Bills it would have been a twofer opportunity.  Had I been going to the Packers game I almost certainly would have gone to the Sabres game tonight.

In a few weeks we are going to see Bruins-Sabres Sat. Vikings-Bills Sunday. Great weekend. 

Since they are One Buffalo you think they would setup some weekend deals when both play at home.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Flashsabre

[tom webster]

8 hours ago, Contempt said:

Yes, and they dropped the box price almost a grand virtually immediately. I'll bet they drop it more.  We'll see.

And the point is, what are those odds those tickets get sold? Slim? None? How many other people are going to come in and also make a big concessions bill too? Not that many.  I get protecting your margin, but you can't take a margin to the bank.  You have a person on the phone ASKING to spend thousands of dollars on a game that basically nobody wants to go to.

The initial call was made before the West Coast trip. We'll see what happens.

Everything on this planet is negotiable.

Also, if you have lots of unsold seats in your arena the law of supply and demand tells us your price point is too high. Keep your price point and have empty seats and no upsales (concessions, parking, merch) or lower your price point and have additional upsales.  It's not super complex.  

It’s not about protecting their margin, it’s about not selling tickets below what season ticket and suite holders pay. It was a pledge started by Golisano and continued by the Pegulas. It’s was a huge problem during the Rigas regime. 
The room for negotiation should fall between face value and a small percentage above what their season ticket and suite holders pay.

[Contempt]

2 hours ago, tom webster said:

It’s not about protecting their margin, it’s about not selling tickets below what season ticket and suite holders pay. It was a pledge started by Golisano and continued by the Pegulas. It’s was a huge problem during the Rigas regime. 
The room for negotiation should fall between face value and a small percentage above what their season ticket and suite holders pay.

That's fine. How's that policy working out for them? That Red Wings game I was referring to probably has 14k seats to sell. 

If the Lightning, who win, can sell $20 student rush tickets for every single game why can't the Sabres? Just an example of something that CAN be done, but isn't.

Also, if you think anything Golisano did was about giving a damn about ticket holders and not about margins I disagree strongly. "Hockey Heaven" has done a pretty good job milking ticket holders too. At least Golisano's teams won.

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, tom webster said:

It’s not about protecting their margin, it’s about not selling tickets below what season ticket and suite holders pay. It was a pledge started by Golisano and continued by the Pegulas. It’s was a huge problem during the Rigas regime. 
The room for negotiation should fall between face value and a small percentage above what their season ticket and suite holders pay.

How does the organization benefit when there is a persistent abundance of empty seats? That empty seat is not going to have anyone pay cash at the concession stand. Even with a discounted ticket that is added revenue. It's not unusual for students to get significant discounts. And it's not unusual for military or police and safety personnel get discounted tickets. My point is that price flexibility is a standard practice when marketing a product. 

Providing discount tickets is a standard marketing tool to get your targeted audience to try your product with the hope that you will get return visits. It's more likely that an attendee, even with a discounted ticket, will return for additional games with family and friends if they have an enjoyable experience at a game.   

I don't totally dismiss the fairness issue to the loyal season ticket holder. But there is a way to handle that issue: Provide more benefits to the loyal season ticket customers by providing greater discounts for concessions and store products. You can also have more player meet and greets and locker room tours. Some of those tactics are already happening but it can be done on a greater scale. 

As others have repeatedly stated the best way to increase attendance is to have a winning and entertaining team. I believe the organization is moving in the right direction in that area. But having more marketing creativity will also help to increase attendance and hopefully soon get to the point where you won't have to work so hard to get people to attend the games because the product will sell itself. The reality is that we are not there yet. 

[PromoTheRobot]

10 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

In a few weeks we are going to see Bruins-Sabres Sat. Vikings-Bills Sunday. Great weekend. 

Since they are One Buffalo you think they would setup some weekend deals when both play at home.

There is a special deal. Buy season tickets for both teams and save $$$.

[Flashsabre]

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

There is a special deal. Buy season tickets for both teams and save $$$.

You know what I meant. Both teams are owned by the Pegulas, they could work out special deals to help boost Sabres attendance.

 

[Taro T]

12 hours ago, Contempt said:

According to ESPN tonight was 14,547 and Thursday was 12,735.

The other things about tonight is that, for people traveling in to see the Bills it would have been a twofer opportunity.  Had I been going to the Packers game I almost certainly would have gone to the Sabres game tonight.

Really surprised only 14,547 tickets were sold for last night.  Estimated there were over 14,000 actually in the building and would've believed anything up to 16k.  Must've only been a couple hundred seats sold that went unused.  Which used to be a thing, but not so much last year & this.  

That actually is a really good sign - that there weren't many sold seats that went unused.  That the Sabres came back from behind and dominated large stretches can only help w/ future ticket sales.

And, yeah, on Monday there could be a bunch of the 11-12k sold seats going unused, but low attendance on weeknights in October was a real thing pre-2006.  Still expect to see significantly more bodies in the building after football is finished.

 

[PromoTheRobot]

34 minutes ago, JohnC said:

How does the organization benefit when there is a persistent abundance of empty seats? That empty seat is not going to have anyone pay cash at the concession stand. Even with a discounted ticket that is added revenue. It's not unusual for students to get significant discounts. And it's not unusual for military or police and safety personnel get discounted tickets. My point is that price flexibility is a standard practice when marketing a product. 

Providing discount tickets is a standard marketing tool to get your targeted audience to try your product with the hope that you will get return visits. It's more likely that an attendee, even with a discounted ticket, will return for additional games with family and friends if they have an enjoyable experience at a game.   

I don't totally dismiss the fairness issue to the loyal season ticket holder. But there is a way to handle that issue: Provide more benefits to the loyal season ticket customers by providing greater discounts for concessions and store products. You can also have more player meet and greets and locker room tours. Some of those tactics are already happening but it can be done on a greater scale. 

As others have repeatedly stated the best way to increase attendance is to have a winning and entertaining team. I believe the organization is moving in the right direction in that area. But having more marketing creativity will also help to increase attendance and hopefully soon get to the point where you won't have to work so hard to get people to attend the games because the product will sell itself. The reality is that we are not there yet. 

First of all, how do you expect people to pay for season tickets when they know they can get bargain tickets at a fire sale? A team should not crap on its season ticket base pursuing casual fans. And they are casual fans because price wouldn't keep real fans from games. You can see a mid week game for $29. How much cheaper should they be? 

Would cheaper tickets draw more fans? The Sabres have the 4th cheapest average ticket at $55.22. Meanwhile the Florida Panthers, one of the most talented and exciting teams in the league, have the lowest average at $37.19. And yet last year they averaged just 14,811 in a building that can hold 19,500. So apparently bargain priced tickets and a cup contender still won't fill a building.

Ticket prices are fine. The team is on the rise. There's nothing stopping Sabres fans from going to games other than disinterest.

8 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

You know what I meant. Both teams are owned by the Pegulas, they could work out special deals to help boost Sabres attendance.

 

I don't agree. I pay for seasons for both teams. Giving casual fans a better deal would be a slap in the face to people who support the team.