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[LGR4GM]

23 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This is true. But what he is calling “soft tanking” is different, It’s about not using all the assets (cap space, picks, prospects) at your disposal to make the team is good as you can right now.

I think Adams believes it will accelerate development of the prospects and build culture. I think @PerreaultForever Thinks Adams believes it will keep the team low in the standings where the can accumulate more and better assets.

Then to be perfectly blunt it is a dumb ***** term. 

I don't think that is why or what Adams thinks at all. 

20 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think it can be both. A recognition that you probably won't make the playoffs now (due to the competition) so there is no need in his mind to use the cap space and fill all the holes, you might as well develop the prospects and get the bonus of a few more. 

What hole on this team could Adams have filled in free agency? Goaltending is it and he acquired one. 

Wasting money because we have money doesn't mean the team is better. We spent half a decade at the top of the cap for nothing. Money spending does not equal wins. 

[LTS]

35 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think it can be both. A recognition that you probably won't make the playoffs now (due to the competition) so there is no need in his mind to use the cap space and fill all the holes, you might as well develop the prospects and get the bonus of a few more. 

I'm confused.  Having a solid plan is "soft" tanking?  Is the better play to blow out your budget for next year AND for the following years?  Any UFA that would make a difference is going to demand a top end, long term contract.  That's why they are in the position they are in.  So, you take one shot and hope like hell it works and destroy everything for the following years?

I know you are tired of losing, but that's basically what the first GM did in trying to turn around Buffalo.. and it didn't work out so well.  It's generally not worked out for anyone.  This team has been a perennial cellar dweller.  That makes obtaining talent from the outside, the kind of sure fire, can;t miss (but often does anyway) talent, that much harder to sign.

The only way using cap space for this season doesn't have a future impact is if the players you bring in are on 1 year contracts.  Not sure which one of those players put this team over the top.

And yes.. the term tank, in any form, just needs to go. The media gloms onto terms for the sensationalism and to stir controversy. It's the ignoramus' way of summarizing a complex situation. "Oh, they aren't doing everything to win now? Must be some kind of tank. But it's not a real tank, so let's call it.. a soft tank." Even after all that, it's STILL not what the Sabres are doing.

Nothing about their plan indicates any intent to lose or even an attempt to not win as much as they can.  Nothing in their strategy says they are trying for the best percentage shot at a Bedard... which is already a meager percentage shot.. something we all know here in Buffalo ALL TOO WELL.

 

 

[SwampD]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Then to be perfectly blunt it is a dumb ***** term. 

I don't think that is why or what Adams thinks at all. 

What hole on this team could Adams have filled in free agency? Goaltending is it and he acquired one. 

Wasting money because we have money doesn't mean the team is better. We spent half a decade at the top of the cap for nothing. Money spending does not equal wins. 

The phrase should probably be “keeping their powder dry”, but this is hockey and this is the Sabres. Gonna be a while before the stink of the tank gets completely washed off.

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Then to be perfectly blunt it is a dumb ***** term. 

I don't think that is why or what Adams thinks at all. 

What hole on this team could Adams have filled in free agency? Goaltending is it and he acquired one. 

Wasting money because we have money doesn't mean the team is better. We spent half a decade at the top of the cap for nothing. Money spending does not equal wins. 

we keep going over the same things and I keep having to repeat myself. Why can't you simply accept we have differing views and you don't have to call things dumb*** just because you don't agree with them. 

So you think Adams believes he can make the playoffs this year? I hope not, because if he does, he's not very bright and shouldn't have gotten that extension. 

In fact, an extension before success adds weight to the long term plan argument imo. 

Wasting money is never good. Filling holes to make your team better is good. We needed a solid starting goalie (if not 2, but Comrie as a back up to the other guy would have been okay). We needed a top pairing or at least 2nd pairing D man and preferrably a 3rd pairing D man as well. We added a 3rd pairing D man. We needed a solid 2 way center better than Eakin to play 4C or even 3C depending on how it shakes out. That was the minimum. 

All moot points now and I'm not going to go over who again, we already did all that back in July. 

Let's just see how it unfolds and who is more right. As I've said, I hope it's you, but I think it's me. 

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

we keep going over the same things and I keep having to repeat myself. Why can't you simply accept we have differing views and you don't have to call things dumb*** just because you don't agree with them. 

So you think Adams believes he can make the playoffs this year? I hope not, because if he does, he's not very bright and shouldn't have gotten that extension. 

In fact, an extension before success adds weight to the long term plan argument imo. 

Wasting money is never good. Filling holes to make your team better is good. We needed a solid starting goalie (if not 2, but Comrie as a back up to the other guy would have been okay). We needed a top pairing or at least 2nd pairing D man and preferrably a 3rd pairing D man as well. We added a 3rd pairing D man. We needed a solid 2 way center better than Eakin to play 4C or even 3C depending on how it shakes out. That was the minimum. 

All moot points now and I'm not going to go over who again, we already did all that back in July. 

Let's just see how it unfolds and who is more right. As I've said, I hope it's you, but I think it's me. 

The term is dumb. You can't "soft tank" and the description of what ppl are saying that term means is basically every single team that isn't spending to the cap and dumping first round picks to go 100% all in is soft tanking. I think that is awful. 

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Wasting money is never good. Filling holes to make your team better is good. We needed a solid starting goalie (if not 2, but Comrie as a back up to the other guy would have been okay). We needed a top pairing or at least 2nd pairing D man and preferrably a 3rd pairing D man as well. We added a 3rd pairing D man. We needed a solid 2 way center better than Eakin to play 4C or even 3C depending on how it shakes out. That was the minimum. 

All moot points now and I'm not going to go over who again, we already did all that back in July. 

Let's just see how it unfolds and who is more right. As I've said, I hope it's you, but I think it's me. 

1) No we didn't. Samuelsson at worst is a 2nd pairing d and the same goes for Power. Boosh is a 2nd pairing d. So between Dahlin, Power, Muel, and Boosh we have a solid top 4. You don't like it because it isn't some old vet like Chairot or the like. Barf, I would rather Power play 25min a night than let Chairot or the equivalent on my team. 

2) Name any C on the roster, they are all better than Eakin. Cozens is already producing and playing at a 3c level and that is if he does almost no improving. So I don't agree here. Why would we want to bring in some 29yr old 3c to take ice away from Cozens, Mitts, Krebs, or even Asplund? Doesn't make a lot of sense. They have Sheahan as the Eakin replacement, aka 4th line filler. 

So of the 3 things you think we need or we are "soft tanking" which is a awful term, we got a goalie in Comrie, we don't need to get a 2nd pairing defender because we did in Boosh (you can argue allllll day he isn't but they are going to play him with Power and let Power produce the offense on that 2nd pair), and the 4c is a laughable need because I can name 4 guys that can fill that role including Zemgus. 

You just don't like the moves adams made, it is as simple as that. There is no tanking going on and yes I think Adams believes this team is on the threshold of making the playoffs but he knows it may wait until next year when the could potentially add Savoie, Kulich, Ryan Johnson, and Devon Levi to the mix. 

[JustOneParade]

Another fan's view ...

So you think Adams believes he can can't make the playoffs this year? I hope not, because if he does, he's not very bright and shouldn't have gotten that extension. 

[LGR4GM]

If Comrie was a one hit wonder with his GSAA numbers than Adams will have failed. That is part of what Perrault is pushing at and he could be right there. 

[nfreeman]

My 2 cents:

- I do not for a second believe that KA has intentionally constructed this roster to "soft tank" or otherwise have a lousy season in order to produce another high draft pick.  That would completely conflict with his goal of developing a winning culture.

- I think he absolutely believes that there is a good likelihood that Comrie/Anderson/UPL will deliver capable goaltending, and that the other goalies who were available to the Sabres last summer didn't provide a likelihood of capable goaltending that was sufficiently better than the path he chose as to justify the price it would've cost.

- It may nevertheless be the case that his expectations, which he hasn't revealed to the public, do not include playoffs this season, as he may think that outcome is unrealistic given the youth of his team, unproven goaltending, competition in the conference, etc.  In fact some of his comments in his presser yesterday were consistent with this perspective -- i.e. he talked about not targeting a certain outcome for the season as much as improving every day, etc.

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

My 2 cents:

- I do not for a second believe that KA has intentionally constructed this roster to "soft tank" or otherwise have a lousy season in order to produce another high draft pick.  That would completely conflict with his goal of developing a winning culture.

- I think he absolutely believes that there is a good likelihood that Comrie/Anderson/UPL will deliver capable goaltending, and that the other goalies who were available to the Sabres last summer didn't provide a likelihood of capable goaltending that was sufficiently better than the path he chose as to justify the price it would've cost.

- It may nevertheless be the case that his expectations, which he hasn't revealed to the public, do not include playoffs this season, as he may think that outcome is unrealistic given the youth of his team, unproven goaltending, competition in the conference, etc.  In fact some of his comments in his presser yesterday were consistent with this perspective -- i.e. he talked about not targeting a certain outcome for the season as much as improving every day, etc.

 

I think those comments (like most offered the media) are calculated for the consumption of the audience: in this case, the players.

I think there is an organizational position that putting the players in the best position to succeed requires them to focus entirely on the process — today as opposes to yesterday or tomorrow. Do the right things and the results will talk care of themselves. It's worked for the Bills.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The term is dumb. You can't "soft tank" and the description of what ppl are saying that term means is basically every single team that isn't spending to the cap and dumping first round picks to go 100% all in is soft tanking. I think that is awful. 

It might be a dumb term to you, but it's a term people are using. I first heard it, as I said, from Craig Button on TSN. It's clearly a way for the media to soft step around things without saying outright that they think some teams just suck and have zero chance of making the playoffs before the season starts. Media people trying to generate interest in hockey just don't talk like that. 

obviously the term is in use because of Bedard and the rest of this strong draft. If the prospects weren't as good as they are, the term wouldn't exist. 

In that regard, I think it'll be extremely difficult to get much value for anybody at the trade deadline and if you want to move people you might want to try earlier. I suspect a number of teams will gut what's left of their rosters (in terms of pending UFAs) at the deadline and full on tank at the end of the year. It'll be a buyer's market. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, nfreeman said:

My 2 cents:

- I do not for a second believe that KA has intentionally constructed this roster to "soft tank" or otherwise have a lousy season in order to produce another high draft pick.  That would completely conflict with his goal of developing a winning culture.

- I think he absolutely believes that there is a good likelihood that Comrie/Anderson/UPL will deliver capable goaltending, and that the other goalies who were available to the Sabres last summer didn't provide a likelihood of capable goaltending that was sufficiently better than the path he chose as to justify the price it would've cost.

- It may nevertheless be the case that his expectations, which he hasn't revealed to the public, do not include playoffs this season, as he may think that outcome is unrealistic given the youth of his team, unproven goaltending, competition in the conference, etc.  In fact some of his comments in his presser yesterday were consistent with this perspective -- i.e. he talked about not targeting a certain outcome for the season as much as improving every day, etc.

I may not have worded it as well or as clear, but this is what I believe and was trying to articulate, especially the bolded part. 

To dudacek's point, I think despite what they say in interviews etc. the players aren't completely stupid and recognize reality. Owen Power isn't coming in here thinking this is a playoff team. Sure, they all want to win and each game they are just playing a game and winning is fun, but really they are coming in here knowing this is a slow build and will take time. They will simply want to enjoy the atmosphere and the relationships they will hopefully build on and off the ice. 

The biggest positive for me is the change towards a TEAM identity from an individual star oriented feel. Band of brothers is that over used term but it seems to be what's building now. When Eichel came in the view was now he's here, now we win because he's here. Power coming in the attitude is we just got a little better as a team.  At least that's the way it appears. The difference matters.

[dudacek]

55 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

To dudacek's point, I think despite what they say in interviews etc. the players aren't completely stupid and recognize reality. Owen Power isn't coming in here thinking this is a playoff team. Sure, they all want to win and each game they are just playing a game and winning is fun, but really they are coming in here knowing this is a slow build and will take time. They will simply want to enjoy the atmosphere and the relationships they will hopefully build on and off the ice.

I get the sense you don't watch many player and executive interviews.

The overarching theme of yesterday's from camp — largely unspoken, but clearly visible, Fairbairn wrote about it in the Athletic — is that these guys think they are good and are going to prove people wrong.

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I may not have worded it as well or as clear, but this is what I believe and was trying to articulate, especially the bolded part. 

To dudacek's point, I think despite what they say in interviews etc. the players aren't completely stupid and recognize reality. Owen Power isn't coming in here thinking this is a playoff team. Sure, they all want to win and each game they are just playing a game and winning is fun, but really they are coming in here knowing this is a slow build and will take time. They will simply want to enjoy the atmosphere and the relationships they will hopefully build on and off the ice. 

The biggest positive for me is the change towards a TEAM identity from an individual star oriented feel. Band of brothers is that over used term but it seems to be what's building now. When Eichel came in the view was now he's here, now we win because he's here. Power coming in the attitude is we just got a little better as a team.  At least that's the way it appears. The difference matters.

Your evaluation of establishing a TEAM identity is a good one.  The current model is more sustainable, but takes longer to develop.  It also means that you don't "go for it" in the off-season.  As such, pundits will label the lack of big splashes as "soft tanking."

Example: anyone else remember the evaluation of the signings of Lydman and Numminen in 2005?  They were considered "solid" but "nothing special" by pundits with The Hockey News, among others.  Several pundits questioned when the Sabres might make the playoffs again since Golisano had clearly instructed Darcy on a target salary.  No one thought they would threaten the playoffs unless, as Spector's Hockey put it, they had "underestimated Lindy Ruff's ability to get blood from a stone."  That was aside from the questions about Miller, Biron, and Noronen.  That team rose from the ashes in part on comraderie.

The signings this season look a lot like 2005.  I don't expect them to rise like that team did.  But maybe a bunch of guys break out like that team did.

51 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I get the sense you don't watch many player and executive interviews.

The overarching theme of yesterday's from camp — largely unspoken, but clearly visible, Fairbairn wrote about it in the Athletic — is that these guys think they are good and are going to prove people wrong.

THIS is why I get a low-key vibe like 2005-6 from these players.

[Thorner]

On 9/22/2022 at 1:25 PM, PerreaultForever said:

I can accept you don't like the definition but I have tried to clarify what I mean by it (even if that doesn't match your definition of it). I think I'm using it the way Button did, but it doesn't really matter. The point is really what I said to dudacek, management's timeline is longer and slower than we as fans want or think. That's my belief anyway. 

I sure hope the internal goal is playoffs this season.

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, nfreeman said:

My 2 cents:

- I do not for a second believe that KA has intentionally constructed this roster to "soft tank" or otherwise have a lousy season in order to produce another high draft pick.  That would completely conflict with his goal of developing a winning culture.

- I think he absolutely believes that there is a good likelihood that Comrie/Anderson/UPL will deliver capable goaltending, and that the other goalies who were available to the Sabres last summer didn't provide a likelihood of capable goaltending that was sufficiently better than the path he chose as to justify the price it would've cost.

- It may nevertheless be the case that his expectations, which he hasn't revealed to the public, do not include playoffs this season, as he may think that outcome is unrealistic given the youth of his team, unproven goaltending, competition in the conference, etc.  In fact some of his comments in his presser yesterday were consistent with this perspective -- i.e. he talked about not targeting a certain outcome for the season as much as improving every day, etc.

Agree w/the first 2. 

Really, really hope the last one isn’t the case. While I disagree outright with Perreault’s tanking thing, he does make a salient point about the culture not being fully instituted until there’s a transition to winning being the main focus, which is probably the hardest part. 

As always, I worry if Adams let’s the team go too far down the “don’t worry about the overall results” pathway that the transition to higher expectations gets more difficult.

I think it would be really swell if the internal sentiment ended off with something like, “Now let’s go see if we can make the playoffs!” this year and not, “Let’s all see if we can improve, day by day, together!”

[Thorner]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

I think those comments (like most offered the media) are calculated for the consumption of the audience: in this case, the players.

I think there is an organizational position that putting the players in the best position to succeed requires them to focus entirely on the process — today as opposes to yesterday or tomorrow. Do the right things and the results will talk care of themselves. It's worked for the Bills.

I hope it’s the opposite, honestly. I hope internally he believes his players are character enough to have some sort of real performance goals this season, ie we join the real NHL, without that collapsing their psyches upon failure. And that, rather, the message is choreographed specifically for the fan base and media which is so thoroughly on board so far with “the process”. It’s the fan base I bet you/hope that the organization is most concerned with keeping expectations in check. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by Thorny

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

I get the sense you don't watch many player and executive interviews.

The overarching theme of yesterday's from camp — largely unspoken, but clearly visible, Fairbairn wrote about it in the Athletic — is that these guys think they are good and are going to prove people wrong.

You're right I don't. and when I do, I take them with a big grain of salt. It's kind of the Bull Durham thing. They're all groomed and trained and coached on how to speak and it's all lies and bs designed to increase ticket sales. It's part of the deal these days. 

Remember I'm old. I long for the old days when players said what they thought and often it was dumb. I cannot quote you many interviews from last year but I still remember Moose Dupont when asked about how he scored his Stanley Cup playoff goal " I whacked the puck and it went into the net" priceless. Or Tiger Williams "Metaphor? What's that, a type of rock?" 

[Curt]

20 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

You're right I don't. and when I do, I take them with a big grain of salt. It's kind of the Bull Durham thing. They're all groomed and trained and coached on how to speak and it's all lies and bs designed to increase ticket sales. It's part of the deal these days. 

Remember I'm old. I long for the old days when players said what they thought and often it was dumb. I cannot quote you many interviews from last year but I still remember Moose Dupont when asked about how he scored his Stanley Cup playoff goal " I whacked the puck and it went into the net" priceless. Or Tiger Williams "Metaphor? What's that, a type of rock?" 

If they are all just acting in their interviews, then they are all much much better actors than the guys who were on the team a couple years ago.

I think they believe that they are pretty good.  Feels like they are setting an internal standard in the locker room for what they expect from themselves and each other.

[PerreaultForever]

39 minutes ago, Curt said:

If they are all just acting in their interviews, then they are all much much better actors than the guys who were on the team a couple years ago.

I think they believe that they are pretty good.  Feels like they are setting an internal standard in the locker room for what they expect from themselves and each other.

I want to wait to see what they say when we lose a game or have a losing streak. Will it be "good effort" crap or will it be "we stunk and have to be better". 

I think what we both want though is a new higher standard where winning is all that matters and losing is unacceptable. 

[Marvin]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I want to wait to see what they say when we lose a game or have a losing streak. Will it be "good effort" crap or will it be "we stunk and have to be better". 

I think what we both want though is a new higher standard where winning is all that matters and losing is unacceptable. 

THIS is how we will tell how much they really believe they can make the playoffs.  If they are angry after a loss because of poor play and say so, that tells me that they really think they can make some hay this season.  Obviously, if the opposing goalie plays like Hasek, what can you do?

For the moment, I take their smiles and attitude at face value.  They look like a team who are relishing the opportunity to embarrass teams who take them lightly.

[7+6=13]

On 9/23/2022 at 5:34 PM, Thorny said:

Agree w/the first 2. 

Really, really hope the last one isn’t the case. While I disagree outright with Perreault’s tanking thing, he does make a salient point about the culture not being fully instituted until there’s a transition to winning being the main focus, which is probably the hardest part. 

As always, I worry if Adams let’s the team go too far down the “don’t worry about the overall results” pathway that the transition to higher expectations gets more difficult.

I think it would be really swell if the internal sentiment ended off with something like, “Now let’s go see if we can make the playoffs!” this year and not, “Let’s all see if we can improve, day by day, together!”

I don't think this is something to realistically worry about.   I don't believe for one second the message is winning doesn't matter.  And/or just try to get better and get a year in. 

[Curt]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I want to wait to see what they say when we lose a game or have a losing streak. Will it be "good effort" crap or will it be "we stunk and have to be better". 

I think what we both want though is a new higher standard where winning is all that matters and losing is unacceptable. 

Yeah, I do want to get to that point as well.

I get the impression that right now they are establishing (or they did establish towards the end of last season) a standard for how they are expected to behave, work, and play.  And that they see that as their path forward to improvement both individually and as a team.

I think that’s what they will judge themselves off of, and believe that if they each meet that standard that they will win quite a few games.

I think we could be a year away from everyone going into the season with playoffs as, not just a goal, but the expectation.

[LGR4GM]

There mindset is what Granato stated. Success and winning are not the same thing, he clearly elaborated on that too. Success is doing all the things in practice and off ice to be successful on the ice. Winning comes from that process. 

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

There mindset is what Granato stated. Success and winning are not the same thing, he clearly elaborated on that too. Success is doing all the things in practice and off ice to be successful on the ice. Winning comes from that process. 

Although there is a distinction, and you can play poorly and win or play well and lose (success and winning are not the same thing) it's a distinction I'd rather they didn't make. It offers you a kind of way out that shouldn't be there. I personally don't want any more good effort talks. Winning is all that matters to me. 

So yes, you build a team and you build a system and so forth, but it's no success if it's a losing season.