Rochester Americans Have Addressed A Racist Incident

[Zamboni]

3 hours ago, Contempt said:

It's not just teachers that need to do it, it's parents that need to be accepting of it and not throw a fit when their kids come home with poor grades when they do something poorly. You should see what happens when I give project assignments and don't tell the kids exactly what to do every step of the way in order to end up with the exact end product I want. In other words they (and their parents) don't want to do the project, they want to copy a project I've already done. It's an absolute shitshow and my email box and voicemail fill up instantly every single time I do this even though I clearly explain to them why I'm doing it this way and part of the grade they are getting is for problem solving their way through issues.  Will I help them if they ask? Yes. Will I give them a pre-planned template to fill in and return to me? No.  

Additionally, our apparent increased desire for standardized testing makes application of useful methodology like this difficult.  Sure, I can do project based stuff to teach you almost anything and that's fine. The problem comes at the end of the year when the state evaluates you completely differently and not at all in a project based way.  If you aren't prepared for the type of test they give you'll do worse on it than you should.  Since many people seem to enjoy throwing test scores in people's faces to determine which schools and teachers are effective and ineffective it creates a divide between what is probably good practice and what is actually wanted.

Another issue with group project based work is that it relies on the assumption that everyone will actually do work or attempt to pull equal weight.  What ends up happening is the same thing that happens in the real world.  The people who are invested and care do more than they should and pick up all the slack to make sure the group project gets done well while those who don't give a damn do nothing and skate by.  The competent and invested end up resentful at the end, the incompetent and uninvested get rewarded for it.  School isn't like the real world because I can't fire crappy workers for being crappy. Speaking of shitshows, try giving one kid an A and one a C (not even an F, a C) for the same project that they worked on together. Amplify the shitshow by making it a diverse grouping.

edit: to clarify what I mean by "diverse grouping" I mean kids who are different at all. Race, gender, IEP status, anything.  Whichever kid ends up with a lower grade because they did a lousy job on their part of the project will have their parents run to my principal. In the last 5 years I've been accused of having a left wing agenda, a right wing agenda, racism favoring whites, racism favoring non-whites, sexism favoring males, sexism favoring females, ableism, transphobia, homophobia, etc.  It's a good time and people wonder why there is a teaching shortage.  It's this as much as anything else. 

Any time you step outside the rails of multiple choice testing with bubble sheets you get punished for doing it and it's frankly exhausting.  When I'm deciding how to teach something part of the conversation is now "how much crap to I want to deal with for doing it this way?" Keep in mind this is from a veteran teacher who is relatively difficult to fire at this point who has hugely supportive administration.  If I didn't have those things the pushing of boundaries would be much less.  

 

I agree with most if not all of what you say here …. Oh how I would love to give you my opinion on why it is the way it is …. But it’s not worth it here or on a sports forum.  And I’m sure your opinions would mirror most of mine regarding this topic. With your limitations I’m sure you are doing a good job with todays youth. 👍🏼

[kas23]

3 hours ago, Contempt said:

It's not just teachers that need to do it, it's parents that need to be accepting of it and not throw a fit when their kids come home with poor grades when they do something poorly. You should see what happens when I give project assignments and don't tell the kids exactly what to do every step of the way in order to end up with the exact end product I want. In other words they (and their parents) don't want to do the project, they want to copy a project I've already done. It's an absolute shitshow and my email box and voicemail fill up instantly every single time I do this even though I clearly explain to them why I'm doing it this way and part of the grade they are getting is for problem solving their way through issues.  Will I help them if they ask? Yes. Will I give them a pre-planned template to fill in and return to me? No.  

Additionally, our apparent increased desire for standardized testing makes application of useful methodology like this difficult.  Sure, I can do project based stuff to teach you almost anything and that's fine. The problem comes at the end of the year when the state evaluates you completely differently and not at all in a project based way.  If you aren't prepared for the type of test they give you'll do worse on it than you should.  Since many people seem to enjoy throwing test scores in people's faces to determine which schools and teachers are effective and ineffective it creates a divide between what is probably good practice and what is actually wanted.

Another issue with group project based work is that it relies on the assumption that everyone will actually do work or attempt to pull equal weight.  What ends up happening is the same thing that happens in the real world.  The people who are invested and care do more than they should and pick up all the slack to make sure the group project gets done well while those who don't give a damn do nothing and skate by.  The competent and invested end up resentful at the end, the incompetent and uninvested get rewarded for it.  School isn't like the real world because I can't fire crappy workers for being crappy. Speaking of shitshows, try giving one kid an A and one a C (not even an F, a C) for the same project that they worked on together. Amplify the shitshow by making it a diverse grouping.

edit: to clarify what I mean by "diverse grouping" I mean kids who are different at all. Race, gender, IEP status, anything.  Whichever kid ends up with a lower grade because they did a lousy job on their part of the project will have their parents run to my principal. In the last 5 years I've been accused of having a left wing agenda, a right wing agenda, racism favoring whites, racism favoring non-whites, sexism favoring males, sexism favoring females, ableism, transphobia, homophobia, etc.  It's a good time and people wonder why there is a teaching shortage.  It's this as much as anything else. 

Any time you step outside the rails of multiple choice testing with bubble sheets you get punished for doing it and it's frankly exhausting.  When I'm deciding how to teach something part of the conversation is now "how much crap to I want to deal with for doing it this way?" Keep in mind this is from a veteran teacher who is relatively difficult to fire at this point who has hugely supportive administration.  If I didn't have those things the pushing of boundaries would be much less.  

 

I assume you are a teacher who cares and who puts thought into his curriculum. Thank you for this thankless job. I can see the flak you get, but if my kids come home with the bad grade, I put their feet to the fire, not the grader. I’ve sure you’ve grown a thick skin over the year. Whether you are a teacher or a doctor, you work in the service industry. And being in the service industry, you get all sorts of bitching and moaning. 

[MattPie]

7 hours ago, SABRES 0311 said:

What’s a Carl sign? 

Lawn signs supporting Carl Paladino that say, "Carl Country".

Some more discussion on the Reddit:

 

[LGR4GM]

13 hours ago, Contempt said:

It's not just teachers that need to do it, it's parents that need to be accepting of it and not throw a fit when their kids come home with poor grades when they do something poorly. You should see what happens when I give project assignments and don't tell the kids exactly what to do every step of the way in order to end up with the exact end product I want. In other words they (and their parents) don't want to do the project, they want to copy a project I've already done. It's an absolute shitshow and my email box and voicemail fill up instantly every single time I do this even though I clearly explain to them why I'm doing it this way and part of the grade they are getting is for problem solving their way through issues.  Will I help them if they ask? Yes. Will I give them a pre-planned template to fill in and return to me? No.  

Additionally, our apparent increased desire for standardized testing makes application of useful methodology like this difficult.  Sure, I can do project based stuff to teach you almost anything and that's fine. The problem comes at the end of the year when the state evaluates you completely differently and not at all in a project based way.  If you aren't prepared for the type of test they give you'll do worse on it than you should.  Since many people seem to enjoy throwing test scores in people's faces to determine which schools and teachers are effective and ineffective it creates a divide between what is probably good practice and what is actually wanted.

Another issue with group project based work is that it relies on the assumption that everyone will actually do work or attempt to pull equal weight.  What ends up happening is the same thing that happens in the real world.  The people who are invested and care do more than they should and pick up all the slack to make sure the group project gets done well while those who don't give a damn do nothing and skate by.  The competent and invested end up resentful at the end, the incompetent and uninvested get rewarded for it.  School isn't like the real world because I can't fire crappy workers for being crappy. Speaking of shitshows, try giving one kid an A and one a C (not even an F, a C) for the same project that they worked on together. Amplify the shitshow by making it a diverse grouping.

edit: to clarify what I mean by "diverse grouping" I mean kids who are different at all. Race, gender, IEP status, anything.  Whichever kid ends up with a lower grade because they did a lousy job on their part of the project will have their parents run to my principal. In the last 5 years I've been accused of having a left wing agenda, a right wing agenda, racism favoring whites, racism favoring non-whites, sexism favoring males, sexism favoring females, ableism, transphobia, homophobia, etc.  It's a good time and people wonder why there is a teaching shortage.  It's this as much as anything else. 

Any time you step outside the rails of multiple choice testing with bubble sheets you get punished for doing it and it's frankly exhausting.  When I'm deciding how to teach something part of the conversation is now "how much crap to I want to deal with for doing it this way?" Keep in mind this is from a veteran teacher who is relatively difficult to fire at this point who has hugely supportive administration.  If I didn't have those things the pushing of boundaries would be much less.  

 

I'm gonna pushback slightly on the first part. You sometimes need to give students a template to follow at first so they have framework to build from. It really depends on their level of skill and underlying knowledge. 

I use examples that frame what I'm looking for and give students wiggle room within that context to be creative because they don't have a framework or understanding yet of how to complete the task. They could copy my example but that would earn them a 0.

[Contempt]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I'm gonna pushback slightly on the first part. You sometimes need to give students a template to follow at first so they have framework to build from. It really depends on their level of skill and underlying knowledge. 

I use examples that frame what I'm looking for and give students wiggle room within that context to be creative because they don't have a framework or understanding yet of how to complete the task. They could copy my example but that would earn them a 0.

I know what you mean and maybe I didn't explain it well enough. They are instructed on how to do the work, how to use the required tools to do the work, and shown examples of end product both good and bad. I have a significant number of people who are absolutely crippled by any ambiguity or by anything they can't cut and paste. I'll explain to them how to get the stuff accomplished themselves as many times as needed. A lot of the trouble comes when I ask them to research a problem that doesn't really have a clear easy answer that they can't Google and copy. They have to come up with an imperfect solution based on what they learned about the topic. For example water use in the Western US. There isn't an easy answer to that and no matter what your solution is someone will be very angry about it. You also can't pop that into Google and get a nice prepackaged answer to give me because it's complicated. They desperately want me to tell them what I think the solution is or if I personally agree with their solutions and I won't do that. They have to be ok with an imperfect solution. My honors students actually struggle with this concept the most because they are focusing on getting an A and are used to getting an A for being "right" rather than for completing a process or for problem solving and they think that if they know what I think they can mimic my answer to please me and get a high grade. Not having a "correct" answer to arrive at drives them crazy but that's what the actual real world is about. There aren't perfect answers, if you are solving real problems there isn't a playbook to follow to get the A at the end. You have to learn about the topic, come to your own conclusions, and be creative in your own solutions. Those are the things they really really struggle with. They want to be able to look up the answer, repackage it, and give it back to me. There's a place for some of that because like it or not there are some facts people need to know, but for project/problem based stuff it's much less like that and way more open ended. At least I try to make it that way.

[LGR4GM]

39 minutes ago, Contempt said:

I know what you mean and maybe I didn't explain it well enough. They are instructed on how to do the work, how to use the required tools to do the work, and shown examples of end product both good and bad. I have a significant number of people who are absolutely crippled by any ambiguity or by anything they can't cut and paste. I'll explain to them how to get the stuff accomplished themselves as many times as needed. A lot of the trouble comes when I ask them to research a problem that doesn't really have a clear easy answer that they can't Google and copy. They have to come up with an imperfect solution based on what they learned about the topic. For example water use in the Western US. There isn't an easy answer to that and no matter what your solution is someone will be very angry about it. You also can't pop that into Google and get a nice prepackaged answer to give me because it's complicated. They desperately want me to tell them what I think the solution is or if I personally agree with their solutions and I won't do that. They have to be ok with an imperfect solution. My honors students actually struggle with this concept the most because they are focusing on getting an A and are used to getting an A for being "right" rather than for completing a process or for problem solving and they think that if they know what I think they can mimic my answer to please me and get a high grade. Not having a "correct" answer to arrive at drives them crazy but that's what the actual real world is about. There aren't perfect answers, if you are solving real problems there isn't a playbook to follow to get the A at the end. You have to learn about the topic, come to your own conclusions, and be creative in your own solutions. Those are the things they really really struggle with. They want to be able to look up the answer, repackage it, and give it back to me. There's a place for some of that because like it or not there are some facts people need to know, but for project/problem based stuff it's much less like that and way more open ended. At least I try to make it that way.

1,000 times this. Students struggle with non-binary research questions even though binary research questions lead to piss poor papers. 

So many students freak out when on a draft worth like 1% of their grade (it is literally worth 1 point out of 100) and they get a 50 and start losing their minds. Can I do make up work? Can I resubmit. Can I do anything to get that grade higher. Yea, don't make the same mistakes on the final and learn from the mistakes you did make. All the students always ask "is this right" and I started years ago saying, do you think it is right and why? The struggle is real when they have to explain why they think they are right. 

Totally agree students want to find the "correct answer" and repeat it or repackage it back. Watching them use academic articles or even news is a struggle because they will find one fact and just use it without any other thoughts. "Is the sky blue" while according to Tim Bob SkyRed, the sky is in fact red so the sky is red. It's like no, you need to critically evaluate that source not just use the first one you find or the first one that agrees with your side of a topic. Is abortion good or bad, well first that question sucks but second you will just find sources that agree with you and that's not helping you understand the complex issue at hand. 

[Sabel79]

Update…

 

[MattPie]

5 minutes ago, Sabel79 said:

Update…

 

LOL, the post article:

Quote

Nicosia’s husband, Dr. Nicholas Nicosia, also spoke, insisting that “there’s been nothing with any interaction with us that would even suggest that we’re racist.”

Other than throwing a party with racist themes and running a wildly racist Twitter account, you mean?

 

 

[Curt]

20 minutes ago, Sabel79 said:

Update…

 

I wouldn’t call that a meltdown at the press conference, but it is great that this behavior was uncovered.

[Curt]

14 minutes ago, MattPie said:

LOL, the post article:

Other than throwing a party with racist themes and running a wildly racist Twitter account, you mean?

 

It’s pretty nuts.  Either the self awareness is below zero, or they think everyone is dumb enough to believe anything they say no matter how ridiculous.  How low do they think the bar is for acceptable behavior?  “We don’t openly yell at or spit on black people in public, so how can we be considered racist?”

[bob_sauve28]

22 minutes ago, Curt said:

It’s pretty nuts.  Either the self awareness is below zero, or they think everyone is dumb enough to believe anything they say no matter how ridiculous.  How low do they think the bar is for acceptable behavior?  “We don’t openly yell at or spit on black people in public, so how can we be considered racist?”

And if they did that they can just say they were spitting on humans! You people that point out they are black are the real racist! 

 

This is your brain, this is your brain on racism...If anyone remembers that reference