Rochester Americans Have Addressed A Racist Incident

[Marvin]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Not sure racism is getting worse but it certainly is getting more media attention and more awareness.   It is the most prominent topic in America.  
 

What is actually getting worse is ageism.  There is a growing perception in this country that seniors don’t understand things and have little value.  Just last week I volunteered my services and was told by a young lady “ the last thing we need is a gray haired white guy working on that “.    I was floored by that but it’s not the first time I’ve heard those words.  
 

Although Covid gets the blame, ageism and social changes in the workplace are a big factor ad to why there are so many early retirements, leading to many unfilled jobs in some critical area..  There is a massive teaching shortage.  Same with nursing, engineering, and other fields.  

IMHO, racism, agism, sexism, political antagonism, religious animosity, and numerous other things are getting worse and have been getting progressively worse since Clinton's election.  I don't know what it was, but it was coincident coincident with the first Baby Boomer getting elected.  (N.B.: I hated Clinton, but there was something beyond that which some people felt which I still do not understand.)

I wish I had a solution to the nursing shortage and to the teaching shortage.  We as a society need to appreciate nurses, teachers, plumbers, electricians, etc. more, but that would only the beginning.

[steveoath]

 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by steveoath
Even 15 some years later this song is still relevant *sigh*

[Pimlach]

9 minutes ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

IMHO, racism, agism, sexism, political antagonism, religious animosity, and numerous other things are getting worse and have been getting progressively worse since Clinton's election.  I don't know what it was, but it was coincident coincident with the first Baby Boomer getting elected.  (N.B.: I hated Clinton, but there was something beyond that which some people felt which I still do not understand.)

I wish I had a solution to the nursing shortage and to the teaching shortage.  We as a society need to appreciate nurses, teachers, plumbers, electricians, etc. more, but that would only the beginning.

Interesting comments Marvin.  What you describe is true, that is all happening and the difference today is it’s reported and debated constantly.  

For me,  I felt “the shift” when Bush 2 and Gore had the vote count debacle.  That was the event that really made me notice the bad rhetoric, and the purposeful dividing of our people, and the role the media plays today.   I was heads down in my career, my wife, 3 kids, house, bills, plans for the future, etc.  At about that time I started to notice that things were changing quickly. 

[LGR4GM]

21 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Not sure racism is getting worse but it certainly is getting more media attention and more awareness.   It is the most prominent topic in America.  
 

What is actually getting worse is ageism.  There is a growing perception in this country that seniors don’t understand things and have little value.  Just last week I volunteered my services and was told by a young lady “ the last thing we need is a gray haired white guy working on that “.    I was floored by that but it’s not the first time I’ve heard those words.  
 

Although Covid gets the blame, ageism and social changes in the workplace are a big factor ad to why there are so many early retirements, leading to many unfilled jobs in some critical area..  There is a massive teaching shortage.  Same with nursing, engineering, and other fields.  

You think there's a massive teacher shortage because of ageism causing retirements? 

[Pimlach]

50 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

You think there's a massive teacher shortage because of ageism causing retirements? 

Early retirements are causing worker shortages in many key areas.  Teaching is one area that was been effected.  Teaching is one of the few jobs that still offer traditional pensions so this can be tracked.  Many are leaving prior to reaching full retirement age.  Reason cited are burn out, Covid induced changes, and ageism.   I personally know 3 teachers that have retired early just this year.   Feelings of being not valued,  obsolete, or unwilling to conform to change are common.  
 

This was covered by CBS just this past weekend.  The LA school district had to change their entrance criteria to get more teachers hired for this season. 
 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Pimlach

[Taro T]

Distrust & the corresponding dislike of those that don't fit into our "tribe" (however determined though politics, race, age, sex, religion, regionalism, etc.) definitely seems to be on the rise though it's still lower than it was 50+ years ago.  Not sure of the causes (though have some thoughts on that which will NOT be delved into here) but one solution seems to be to stop putting people into groups and rather focus on the individual.

Also, try to cut our fellow human beings some slack (far easier said than done) when they say or do something that just flat out seems not up to our own standards.  That person who seems ignorant, might actually be ignorant and not intentionally an arse.  If you have the time & the inclination, help them; if not, ignore them and the next time you do have the time & the inclination, help the next ignorant person you run into.  You know you will have plenty of opportunity to do so should you choose.  And by help, don't chide, that won't do anything positive, but actually help.  Understand yourself where that person is coming from & then maybe you can help them to understand your perspective.

My 2 cents.

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Early retirements are causing worker shortages in many key areas.  Teaching is one area that was been effected.  Teaching is one of the few jobs that still offer traditional pensions so this can be tracked.  Many are leaving prior to reaching full retirement age.  Reason cited are burn out, Covid induced changes, and ageism.   I personally know 3 teachers that have retired early just this year.   Feelings of being not valued,  obsolete, or unwilling to conform to change are common.  
 

This was covered by CBS just this past weekend.  The LA school district had to change their entrance criteria to get more teachers hired for this season. 
 

You'll have to find me a citation for "ageism" because I couldn't find that. 

I found low pay, being accused of grooming children by politicians or similar political issues, and burnout via covid and other things. 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

You'll have to find me a citation for "ageism" because I couldn't find that. 

I found low pay, being accused of grooming children by politicians or similar political issues, and burnout via covid and other things. 

Here is one article that talks to ageism and early retirements:  Ageism In The Workplace | Ageism.org  

Ageism is not specifically a teachers issue, it can affect workers in many organizations, especially corporate.   

Teacher's deal with the many factors that you and I cited.   

Bottom line is lots of teachers are retiring early for a variety of reasons.  

 

[Lanny]

5 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Early retirements are causing worker shortages in many key areas.  Teaching is one area that was been effected.  Teaching is one of the few jobs that still offer traditional pensions so this can be tracked.  Many are leaving prior to reaching full retirement age.  Reason cited are burn out, Covid induced changes, and ageism.   I personally know 3 teachers that have retired early just this year.   Feelings of being not valued,  obsolete, or unwilling to conform to change are common.  
 

This was covered by CBS just this past weekend.  The LA school district had to change their entrance criteria to get more teachers hired for this season. 
 

Have seen the bolded in the healthcare field the last year or so. 

 

I'm unsure if the retirements were necessarily "early" (all were in their early 60s), but the decision to retire was motivated largely by new software being utilized by the institution and an a lack of desire to learn something new. 

[mjd1001]

On 8/14/2022 at 9:54 AM, COSabreFan said:

I grew up in Rochester, have lived in Florida and Texas.  Rochester is more racist then either Florida and Texas.  This is not a surprise.

I beg to differ, not with texas though.  I lived about half my life in WNY, spending quite a few years in the Roch, and I lived 2 times in Florida (for a total of 6 years).  My experience is that it is bad in both places, but much, MUCH worse in Florida.  As I stated in a previous thread, just a few weeks ago when visiting my relatives in Florida a racism related incident happened in the grocery aisles in Walmart right next to me.

Of course, it depends on what part of Florida you are talking about.  Jacksonville is much Different than Miami.  Daytona is much different than the Keys, Tampa is much different than Tallahassee.  Rural areas are much different than the more 'integrated' cities...etc.

Edited August 15, 2022 by mjd1001

[Contempt]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Bottom line is lots of teachers are retiring early for a variety of reasons.  

Leaving the field before retirement age isn't the same as retiring.  I know several teachers who have retired the last two years but all of them had already put in their 25 years or more.  I also know some much younger people who left the field before they got to year 5.  I'm at year 13 and I'm in a position where I could switch jobs or schools or districts, but leaving the field entirely would be difficult.

[MattPie]

8 hours ago, Lanny said:

I'm unsure if the retirements were necessarily "early" (all were in their early 60s), but the decision to retire was motivated largely by new software being utilized by the institution and an a lack of desire to learn something new. 

I work in IT, if I ever get to the point where I don't want to learn something new I know it'll be time for be to retire. I don't think that's limited to IT, there are often new approaches to things that may work better than what we were taught.

I don't blame any teachers or medical industry people for retiring early at this point. Crap conditions, crap money, and large portions of the public and politicians that love to ***** all over them. Someone above mentioned respect, that's spot on.

[French Collection]

I’m not an expert in the education field but from my perspective teacher’s roles have changed a lot. They used to be the ones that had the knowledge and would pass it on to the kids. Now, technology allows everyone to have the knowledge at their fingertips so the teachers IMHO, don’t have as much respect.

As I have aged I find the changes comes faster. 40 years ago the methods used in my trade were the same as 20-30 years before that. Technology provided equipment and tools to make the work physically easier and safer. Over the years newer technologies, newer procedures and regulated training came at a faster pace and produced more of a streamlined, cookie cutter approach to getting the work done. I find there used to be more thinking and creativity involved, which got people in trouble sometimes, but led to more job satisfaction.

Anyway, enough ranting, gotta get these kids off of my lawn.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, French Collection said:

I’m not an expert in the education field but from my perspective teacher’s roles have changed a lot. They used to be the ones that had the knowledge and would pass it on to the kids. Now, technology allows everyone to have the knowledge at their fingertips so the teachers IMHO, don’t have as much respect.

As I have aged I find the changes comes faster. 40 years ago the methods used in my trade were the same as 20-30 years before that. Technology provided equipment and tools to make the work physically easier and safer. Over the years newer technologies, newer procedures and regulated training came at a faster pace and produced more of a streamlined, cookie cutter approach to getting the work done. I find there used to be more thinking and creativity involved, which got people in trouble sometimes, but led to more job satisfaction.

Anyway, enough ranting, gotta get these kids off of my lawn.

Sure technology plays a role.  Speed of change is greater today, leading to more change over a 30-40 year career.  
 

Teachers tell me the single most difficult aspect of their job are dealing with the parents. Support from parents is critical but not always there.  

[French Collection]

42 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Sure technology plays a role.  Speed of change is greater today, leading to more change over a 30-40 year career.  
 

Teachers tell me the single most difficult aspect of their job are dealing with the parents. Support from parents is critical but not always there.  

Coaches say the same thing about parents. Every little decision is under a microscope and debated.

[MattPie]

3 hours ago, French Collection said:

I’m not an expert in the education field but from my perspective teacher’s roles have changed a lot. They used to be the ones that had the knowledge and would pass it on to the kids. Now, technology allows everyone to have the knowledge at their fingertips so the teachers IMHO, don’t have as much respect.

I think the role of teachers is changing, but maybe not as much as it may seem. If you think back (or at least if I do), the best teachers weren't the ones that pushed a bunch of knowledge to the students, they were the ones that engaged and made kids think. That part is the same now, but there's less need for a teacher whose only skill is pushing information down and testing to see who remembered enough on a closed-book test. I really hope public schools can pivot a bit to take this new reality and help kids navigate. Having all the information available to you at all times is powerful, but you need to be able to understand and evaluate and not just memorize stuff from some "authority" and repeat it back. There are private school curriculum that do this starting at a young age and I think it makes way more sense to prepare kids for reality.

[Curt]

2 hours ago, MattPie said:

I think the role of teachers is changing, but maybe not as much as it may seem. If you think back (or at least if I do), the best teachers weren't the ones that pushed a bunch of knowledge to the students, they were the ones that engaged and made kids think. That part is the same now, but there's less need for a teacher whose only skill is pushing information down and testing to see who remembered enough on a closed-book test. I really hope public schools can pivot a bit to take this new reality and help kids navigate. Having all the information available to you at all times is powerful, but you need to be able to understand and evaluate and not just memorize stuff from some "authority" and repeat it back. There are private school curriculum that do this starting at a young age and I think it makes way more sense to prepare kids for reality.

I actually learned a little about this somewhat recently.  I think it is often called “Project Based Learning/Teaching”.

The teaching/learning is based around kids working (often in groups) to develop solutions/answers to a complex problems/questions.  Each project could take anywhere from a few days to an entire semester.  The focus is on applying information and ideas to real life situations/problems/questions.

I think it seems to have potential to be a lot better at preparing kids for the real world what I got in 1990’s NYS public school, which seemed to be focused on just memorizing information and occasionally needing to apply it in a very superficial way.

[Wyldnwoody44]

Everyone that has Web MD thinks they know what is exactly wrong with them as soon as they walk in. It reaches all aspects of life. Technology has changed this Indefinitley. 

[matter2003]

On 8/13/2022 at 8:52 AM, Cascade Youth said:

How does this stuff still happen in 2022?

Because there are many people who are still racist and it's becoming much harder to hide it these days. 

Ironically, some Black people claim racism is worse up North than it is down South because at least there it is more in your face...up here it is more hidden and harder to discern.

[MattPie]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

Because there are many people who are still racist and it's becoming much harder to hide it these days. 

Ironically, some Black people claim racism is worse up North than it is down South because at least there it is more in your face...up here it is more hidden and harder to discern.

Awful lot of Carl signs around WNY when I was up there this week, I'm not sure it's trying to stay hidden.

[SABRES 0311]

1 hour ago, MattPie said:

Awful lot of Carl signs around WNY when I was up there this week, I'm not sure it's trying to stay hidden.

What’s a Carl sign? 

[Palm Trees And Taxes]

I agree that is scary these horrendous incidents like with this dentist still happen in 2022.

It will happen in 2042, 2062 and 3012. It happens around the world at many levels and sadly, it will never be fully eradicated.

Just hope and pray that it gets better on all levels so people can live more at peace day by day.

What should NOT be happening in 2022 is this: Blaming just one side of the political aisle.

If anyone hasn't figured out by now that BOTH sides are EQUALLY guilty in flaming many toxic things, then I really don't know what to tell you.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Ruff Around The Edges

[bob_sauve28]

39 minutes ago, Ruff Around The Edges said:

I agree that is scary these horrendous incidents like with this dentist still happen in 2022.

It will happen in 2042, 2062 and 3012. It happens around the world at many levels and sadly, it will never be fully eradicated.

Just hope and pray that it gets better on all levels so people can live more at peace day by day.

What should NOT be happening in 2022 is this: Blaming just one side of the political aisle.

If anyone hasn't figured out by now that BOTH sides are EQUALLY guilty in flaming many toxic things, then I really don't know what to tell you.

Things will continue to get better, imo 

[Contempt]

6 hours ago, MattPie said:

I think the role of teachers is changing, but maybe not as much as it may seem. If you think back (or at least if I do), the best teachers weren't the ones that pushed a bunch of knowledge to the students, they were the ones that engaged and made kids think. That part is the same now, but there's less need for a teacher whose only skill is pushing information down and testing to see who remembered enough on a closed-book test. I really hope public schools can pivot a bit to take this new reality and help kids navigate. Having all the information available to you at all times is powerful, but you need to be able to understand and evaluate and not just memorize stuff from some "authority" and repeat it back. There are private school curriculum that do this starting at a young age and I think it makes way more sense to prepare kids for reality.

It's not just teachers that need to do it, it's parents that need to be accepting of it and not throw a fit when their kids come home with poor grades when they do something poorly. You should see what happens when I give project assignments and don't tell the kids exactly what to do every step of the way in order to end up with the exact end product I want. In other words they (and their parents) don't want to do the project, they want to copy a project I've already done. It's an absolute shitshow and my email box and voicemail fill up instantly every single time I do this even though I clearly explain to them why I'm doing it this way and part of the grade they are getting is for problem solving their way through issues.  Will I help them if they ask? Yes. Will I give them a pre-planned template to fill in and return to me? No.  

Additionally, our apparent increased desire for standardized testing makes application of useful methodology like this difficult.  Sure, I can do project based stuff to teach you almost anything and that's fine. The problem comes at the end of the year when the state evaluates you completely differently and not at all in a project based way.  If you aren't prepared for the type of test they give you'll do worse on it than you should.  Since many people seem to enjoy throwing test scores in people's faces to determine which schools and teachers are effective and ineffective it creates a divide between what is probably good practice and what is actually wanted.

Another issue with group project based work is that it relies on the assumption that everyone will actually do work or attempt to pull equal weight.  What ends up happening is the same thing that happens in the real world.  The people who are invested and care do more than they should and pick up all the slack to make sure the group project gets done well while those who don't give a damn do nothing and skate by.  The competent and invested end up resentful at the end, the incompetent and uninvested get rewarded for it.  School isn't like the real world because I can't fire crappy workers for being crappy. Speaking of shitshows, try giving one kid an A and one a C (not even an F, a C) for the same project that they worked on together. Amplify the shitshow by making it a diverse grouping.

edit: to clarify what I mean by "diverse grouping" I mean kids who are different at all. Race, gender, IEP status, anything.  Whichever kid ends up with a lower grade because they did a lousy job on their part of the project will have their parents run to my principal. In the last 5 years I've been accused of having a left wing agenda, a right wing agenda, racism favoring whites, racism favoring non-whites, sexism favoring males, sexism favoring females, ableism, transphobia, homophobia, etc.  It's a good time and people wonder why there is a teaching shortage.  It's this as much as anything else. 

Any time you step outside the rails of multiple choice testing with bubble sheets you get punished for doing it and it's frankly exhausting.  When I'm deciding how to teach something part of the conversation is now "how much crap to I want to deal with for doing it this way?" Keep in mind this is from a veteran teacher who is relatively difficult to fire at this point who has hugely supportive administration.  If I didn't have those things the pushing of boundaries would be much less.  

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Contempt

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, Contempt said:

It's not just teachers that need to do it, it's parents that need to be accepting of it and not throw a fit when their kids come home with poor grades when they do something poorly. You should see what happens when I give project assignments and don't tell the kids exactly what to do every step of the way in order to end up with the exact end product I want. In other words they (and their parents) don't want to do the project, they want to copy a project I've already done. It's an absolute shitshow and my email box and voicemail fill up instantly every single time I do this even though I clearly explain to them why I'm doing it this way and part of the grade they are getting is for problem solving their way through issues.  Will I help them if they ask? Yes. Will I give them a pre-planned template to fill in and return to me? No.  

Additionally, our apparent increased desire for standardized testing makes application of useful methodology like this difficult.  Sure, I can do project based stuff to teach you almost anything and that's fine. The problem comes at the end of the year when the state evaluates you completely differently and not at all in a project based way.  If you aren't prepared for the type of test they give you'll do worse on it than you should.  Since many people seem to enjoy throwing test scores in people's faces to determine which schools and teachers are effective and ineffective it creates a divide between what is probably good practice and what is actually wanted.

Another issue with group project based work is that it relies on the assumption that everyone will actually do work or attempt to pull equal weight.  What ends up happening is the same thing that happens in the real world.  The people who are invested and care do more than they should and pick up all the slack to make sure the group project gets done well while those who don't give a damn do nothing and skate by.  The competent and invested end up resentful at the end, the incompetent and uninvested get rewarded for it.  School isn't like the real world because I can't fire crappy workers for being crappy. Speaking of shitshows, try giving one kid an A and one a C (not even an F, a C) for the same project that they worked on together. Amplify the shitshow by making it a diverse grouping.

edit: to clarify what I mean by "diverse grouping" I mean kids who are different at all. Race, gender, IEP status, anything.  Whichever kid ends up with a lower grade because they did a lousy job on their part of the project will have their parents run to my principal. In the last 5 years I've been accused of having a left wing agenda, a right wing agenda, racism favoring whites, racism favoring non-whites, sexism favoring males, sexism favoring females, ableism, transphobia, homophobia, etc.  It's a good time and people wonder why there is a teaching shortage.  It's this as much as anything else. 

Any time you step outside the rails of multiple choice testing with bubble sheets you get punished for doing it and it's frankly exhausting.  When I'm deciding how to teach something part of the conversation is now "how much crap to I want to deal with for doing it this way?" Keep in mind this is from a veteran teacher who is relatively difficult to fire at this point who has hugely supportive administration.  If I didn't have those things the pushing of boundaries would be much less.  

 

Thanks for the enlightening post.  
 

I remember being at the rink coaching and seeing groups of parents at tables in the snack bar area doing their sons homework while junior is at practice.   They were complaining about a certain teacher being so hard to make the kids write research papers with footnotes and a bibliography.   They thought this was too much even though they themselves did similar assignments.