Another centre needed?

[dudacek]

24 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

 

How about making Mitts, or Cozens, or Krebs progress and beat out a solid NHL center, therefore earning the job?  Wouldn’t that be “playing up”?  
 

I agree that our centre corps is young and unproven, but I think if you look at the forward group as a whole, what you're asking for is already happening.

The goal is to challenge the likes of Peterka Quinn, Mitts, Cozens and Krebs push past the likes of Okposo, Girgensons, Skinner, Hinostroza and Olofsson over the course of a few seasons, then ask the likes of Rosen, Poltapov, Östlund, Kulich and Savoie to do the same as they come in behind them.

It's a balance of giving opportunities versus giving spots and I think the Sabres are very cognizant of that.

[Weave]

49 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Play up from where to where?  
 

How about making Mitts, or Cozens, or Krebs progress and beat out a solid NHL center, therefore earning the job?  Wouldn’t that be “playing up”?  
 

Hoping to stay healthy never happens.  Hope is not a plan. 

I don’t agree with this philosophy of give the kids the spot and the space.  Beating out an actual player is development too.  And it is tried and true.

Having said that, I suspect they were left with the option of giving the kids these roles because this franchise is still team non grata around the league for actual good players.  I don’t think we’re on any short lists for players with movement clauses.

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, Weave said:

I don’t agree with this philosophy of give the kids the spot and the space.  Beating out an actual player is development too.  And it is tried and true.

Having said that, I suspect they were left with the option of giving the kids these roles because this franchise is still team non grata around the league for actual good players.  I don’t think we’re on any short lists for players with movement clauses.

Didn't Quinn and Peterka earn anything with their play last year?

Didn't they already beat out Eakin and Hayden? Don't they still have to beat out Bjork and Sheahan to make the team, and Girgensons and Hinostroza and Asplund to get ice time?

Aren't they competing with Krebs and Cozens and Mitts and Olofsson and Okposo for spots in the top 6 or top 9?

This idea that people are being "given" spots is bizarre to me.

There are 15 forwards competing for 12 starting spots and plenty of internal competition for ice time within that heirarchy.

I'd say there is more competition for ice time among the Sabres forward ranks than among most teams in the league.

Edited August 11, 2022 by dudacek

[Weave]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Didn't Quinn and Peterka earn anything with their play last year?

Didn't they already beat out Eakin and Hayden? Don't they still have to beat out Bjork and Sheahan to make the team, and Girgensons and Hinostroza and Asplund to get ice time?

Aren't they competing with Krebs and Cozens and Mitts and Olofsson and Okposo for spots in the top 6 or top 9?

This idea that people are being "given" spots is bizarre to me.

There are 15 forwards competing for 12 starting spots and plenty of internal competition for ice time within that heirarchy.

I'd say there is more competition for ice time among the Sabres forward ranks than among most teams in the league.

Of the names you mention, probably Olofsson and Okposo are the only two that are of the quality of players that these kids need to be beating for roster spots.  All the rest are minimally proven and placed in their spots without competition, so I’d call the competition being fostered right now marginal, at best.  Like Punch, I want to see these kids challenged by a Statsny, not a Sheahan or Bjork.  Bjork and Sheahan, and frankly Krebs and probably Cozens too at this stage in their development , aren’t the level of competition that builds winners.  

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

Of the names you mention, probably Olofsson and Okposo are the only two that are of the quality of players that these kids need to be beating for roster spots.  All the rest are minimally proven and placed in their spots without competition, so I’d call the competition being fostered right now marginal, at best.  Like Punch, I want to see these kids challenged by a Statsny, not a Sheahan or Bjork.  Bjork and Sheahan, and frankly Krebs and probably Cozens too at this stage in their development , aren’t the level of competition that builds winners.  

If you think you need to be beating out 40-point players just to make a team, you have a very unrealistic view of the level of talent in the National Hockey League.

[dudacek]

What Sabres player has his slot in the roster guaranteed and is not vulnerable to being bumped, or in a position to push his way further up the lineup?

That is what competition looks like.

Edited August 11, 2022 by dudacek

[Weave]

17 minutes ago, dudacek said:

What Sabres player has his slot in the roster guaranteed and is not vulnerable to being bumped, or in a position to push his way further up the lineup?

That is what competition looks like.

The competition floor is admittedly low.  Mitts, Cozens, Asplund probably too did not have to beat middle 6 players to get middle 6 roles.  They beat JAGs who had no business in those roles.  And this gen of kids are still not defined and developed.  The roles that these next group of kids were drafted for are 40pt players too, not Bjork and Sheahan level.

A more normal level of roster competition means you are getting time in a given role over a legit NHL player that is reasonably good at that role.  We don’t have that.  We don’t even have well defined team roles yet.  At best you can make the argument that we are upgrading skill, but it is skill without development and without a role.  And it is yet another way in which this season is full of variables.

Goalie, unproven.

Centers, unproven

Kids, still developing and defining roles

Newer kids, replacing JAGS but even more unproven and undefined roles

I don’t want to sound all pessimistic.  There is reason for optimism.  The skill level seems to be higher than its been in a decade.  And I acknowledge that there is roster spot competition developing.  But it is not where 75% of the league is.  Hoping that KA would be willing to up the quality of player JJP has to beat shouldn’t be controversial.  It would mean we are closer to typical for the league.

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, Weave said:

The competition floor is admittedly low.  Mitts, Cozens, Asplund probably too did not have to beat middle 6 players to get middle 6 roles.  They beat JAGs who had no business in those roles.  And this gen of kids are still not defined and developed.  The roles that these next group of kids were drafted for are 40pt players too, not Bjork and Sheahan level.

A more normal level of roster competition means you are getting time in a given role over a legit NHL player that is reasonably good at that role.  We don’t have that.  We don’t even have well defined team roles yet.  At best you can make the argument that we are upgrading skill, but it is skill without development and without a role.  And it is yet another way in which this season is full of variables.

Goalie, unproven.

Centers, unproven

Kids, still developing and defining roles

Newer kids, replacing JAGS but even more unproven and undefined roles

I don’t want to sound all pessimistic.  There is reason for optimism.  The skill level seems to be higher than its been in a decade.  And I acknowledge that there is roster spot competition developing.  But it is not where 75% of the league is.  Hoping that KA would be willing to up the quality of player JJP has to beat shouldn’t be controversial.  It would mean we are closer to typical for the league.

So what you actually want is not competition, it's a better roster right now. Because if you are bringing in, say, Andrew Copp, you are giving him a middle-six roster spot; you don't expect Mitts and Cozens to beat him out; if you did, you wouldn't have invested $25 million in him.

[Weave]

Just now, dudacek said:

So what you actually want is not competition, it's a better roster right now. Because if you are bringing in, say, Andrew Copp, you are giving him a middle-six roster spot; you don't expect Mitts and Cozens to beat him out; if you did, you wouldn't have invested $25 million in him.

You don’t think a better roster breeds better competition?

[dudacek]

13 minutes ago, Weave said:

You don’t think a better roster breeds better competition?

A better roster breeds a more competitive team. I'm not sure it breeds better internal competition, although a deeper roster does (Good rosters can get complacent).

The model you are suggesting is based on teams that largely have a hierarchy established. As you have said, the Sabres do not.

Adams and Granato could bring in outsiders to create that hierarchy like you suggest, or they could do what they are doing: let it form organically.

I think both methods are proven (Imlach '74, Regier '06), don't think either method is guaranteed (Murray '16, Bowman '85)

Edited August 11, 2022 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

59 minutes ago, Weave said:

You don’t think a better roster breeds better competition?

It depends on the talent.  Are players is specific roles, are certain players much more talented or are they like the Sabres are now at forward with pretty even talent spread across the roster?

Most great teams seems to have a core of 6-7 or so guys who hold down the key positions on the team and play the most minutes.  Teams like of 05/06 Sabres where you had scoring talent throughout the lineup are much more rare.  Teams like the current TB group have a mix of stars plus great depth are the exception.

The Sabres are pretty set lineup wise.  The camp battles, especially at forward, are who plays with whom?  How does DG set the lines? How does he integrate the rookies? We have a forward group with 7 potential centers, all of which also have NHL experience at the wing. Also all of our wingers also have pro experience on their off wing.  I literally have only one forward written in pen and that is TnT as the No.1 center.  
 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[Pimlach]

13 hours ago, dudacek said:

A better roster breeds a more competitive team. I'm not sure it breeds better internal competition, although a deeper roster does (Good rosters can get complacent).

The model you are suggesting is based on teams that largely have a hierarchy established. As you have said, the Sabres do not.

Adams and Granato could bring in outsiders to create that hierarchy like you suggest, or they could do what they are doing: let it form organically.

I think both methods are proven (Imlach '74, Regier '06), don't think either method is guaranteed (Murray '16, Bowman '85)

The bold part is key.   The Sabres act like they have a hierarchy established, unfortunately the players are mostly unproven and the bar is not very high.  With the cap room available they could have upgraded the C, D and G positions and still given their kids opportunities to develop and beat out a viable player.   This could be done without getting into cap trouble.   

The off-season is essentially over.  The plan is the plan.  Comrie might work out.  Bushy might be a decent pick up.  Center was not addressed except for drafting futures.   

I am looking forward to a more competitive team this year but I still don't see this group challenging for a playoff spot - unless Comrie plays like a real NHL 1 and a few more players emerge.   More likely we will have another season like last season, a few moral victories and continued low attendance. 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Pimlach

[nfreeman]

19 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The bold part is key.   The Sabres act like they have a hierarchy established, unfortunately the players are mostly unproven and the bar is not very high.  With the cap room available they could have upgraded the C, D and G positions and still given their kids opportunities to develop and beat out a viable player.   This could be done without getting into cap trouble.   

The off-season is essentially over.  The plan is the plan.  Comrie might work out.  Bushy might be a decent pick up.  Center was not addressed except for drafting futures.   

I am looking forward to a more competitive team this year but I still don't see this group challenging for a playoff spot - unless Comrie plays like a real NHL 1 and a few more players emerge.   More likely we will have another season like last season, a few moral victories and continued low attendance. 

 

I think this is indeed the plan, and it has a reasonable chance of working. 

[Carmel Corn]

34 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I think this is indeed the plan, and it has a reasonable chance of working. 

Sticking to the plan seems to be the priority.  Part of the plan includes having players who truly want to be here.  IMHO - some of the FA's who fans desire may simply not buy into the Sabres' plan and so they signed elsewhere or maybe still looking.

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

Sticking to the plan seems to be the priority.  Part of the plan includes having players who truly want to be here.  IMHO - some of the FA's who fans desire may simply not buy into the Sabres' plan and so they signed elsewhere or maybe still looking.

Definitely true that whoever we bring in has to be fully committed, just like the young core is asked to be.  

[Marvin]

6 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

Sticking to the plan seems to be the priority.  Part of the plan includes having players who truly want to be here.  IMHO - some of the FA's who fans desire may simply not buy into the Sabres' plan and so they signed elsewhere or maybe still looking.

This is a good point.  Higher-end FAs will not want to hear that the team needs a couple of years to fully grow up and contend. 

[French Collection]

Listened to Marty and Duffer on Sabres Live today. They have the same questions that we have here about who plays centre.
Marty rhymed off Thompson, Krebs and Cozens and was unsure of 4C. He doesn’t feel Zemgus or Asplund should play there. He says Sheahan can do it but only if Quinn and Peterka don’t make the team. He did not mention Mittelstadt.

Duffer floated the idea of going after Stastny but that it would be unlikely for him to come.

Maybe I am on hopium here but would like to see Asplund given a real shot at it. Another option for me would be to try and get Krebs to embrace that role and also provide more offence than a guy like Larry did.

[Weave]

4 hours ago, French Collection said:

Listened to Marty and Duffer on Sabres Live today. They have the same questions that we have here about who plays centre.
Marty rhymed off Thompson, Krebs and Cozens and was unsure of 4C. He doesn’t feel Zemgus or Asplund should play there. He says Sheahan can do it but only if Quinn and Peterka don’t make the team. He did not mention Mittelstadt.

Duffer floated the idea of going after Stastny but that it would be unlikely for him to come.

Maybe I am on hopium here but would like to see Asplund given a real shot at it. Another option for me would be to try and get Krebs to embrace that role and also provide more offence than a guy like Larry did.

Interesting that they didn’t mention Mitts.  Seems like he’d be an obvious mention.  I can’t help but try and read something into it.  Not sure what though.

[MattPie]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

Interesting that they didn’t mention Mitts.  Seems like he’d be an obvious mention.  I can’t help but try and read something into it.  Not sure what though.

Honestly, they guy has been kinda invisible with the injuries. He's probably the last center I'd think of too. I don't think that's a slight on him, just that he hasn't been able to make an impact yet. Thompson has, Krebs is Eichel-fruit, and Cozens plays tough.

[PerreaultForever]

On 8/12/2022 at 2:33 PM, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

This is a good point.  Higher-end FAs will not want to hear that the team needs a couple of years to fully grow up and contend. 

But therein lies the paradox. If you bring in those higher end FAs you can compete now. 

Punch had it right, "could have upgraded the C, D and G positions and still given their kids opportunities to develop and beat out a viable player".

Filling glaring holes strategically while primarily developing and playing your youth is also a viable plan, and one that imo earns dividends sooner. 

[LGR4GM]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

But therein lies the paradox. If you bring in those higher end FAs you can compete now. 

Punch had it right, "could have upgraded the C, D and G positions and still given their kids opportunities to develop and beat out a viable player".

Filling glaring holes strategically while primarily developing and playing your youth is also a viable plan, and one that imo earns dividends sooner. 

Which C, D, and G should they have signed?

[ddaryl]

The way I look at it our young players have way more upside to be gained..... And geting NHL playing time is the only way to tap into that upside sooner than later.

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, ddaryl said:

The way I look at it our young players have way more upside to be gained..... And geting NHL playing time is the only way to tap into that upside sooner than later.

Only if they are ready.  Handing out NHL minutes to prospects is not always good for them.  You can’t throw them in a futile situation like we have in the past.  

[sweetlou]

I personally still would want JJP, Quinn and Krebs to form a top dominant line with Amerks and play in all situations.  Let them be call ups and fill in as top 6 for injuries. I feel playing them down on third line does not help their development as much as seeing lots of ice time in AHL.  Krebs and Quinn could use another year to build strength they need to compete every day in the NHL.  

Why not sign a guy like Motte to a 1 year deal for $2 million. 

Skinner, Thompson, Tuch

Asplund, Mitts, Olofsson

Hinny, Cozens,  Okposo

Girgs, Sheahan, Motte

[dudacek]

20 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

I personally still would want JJP, Quinn and Krebs to form a top dominant line with Amerks and play in all situations.  Let them be call ups and fill in as top 6 for injuries. I feel playing them down on third line does not help their development as much as seeing lots of ice time in AHL.  Krebs and Quinn could use another year to build strength they need to compete every day in the NHL.  

Why not sign a guy like Motte to a 1 year deal for $2 million. 

Skinner, Thompson, Tuch

Asplund, Mitts, Olofsson

Hinny, Cozens,  Okposo

Girgs, Sheahan, Motte

All three of those players are dominant, point-per-game AHLers already.

I strongly disagree they are better off getting 18 minutes a night feasting on Nico Daws, Chase DeLeo and Tyler Wotherspoon, than they would be getting 14 against Killorn, Sergachev and Vasilevskiy.

Challenging them is how you make them better.