Adams/Granato: In for the long haul

[grinreaper]

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Not to keep rehashing things, but maybe they wouldn’t have had to rely on “league help”, if they had just gone out and hired an experienced and successful hockey exec to run the entire show to begin with.  The last decade+ is a black eye on the franchise that will sting for some time.  I will stop looking at him as a bumbling meddling fool when his team proves it to me. 

Out of curiosity, if the Sabres start to excel and keep it up how will you view Pegula then? 

[Weave]

3 hours ago, Doohickie said:

I think in the Pegulas' case, it's not paranoia.  They went with leadership choices that were league darlings.  They failed.  Wanting to pick their own GM under those circumstances isn't paranoia, it's the voice of experience.

Much of that is mitigated if they would have hired an experienced GM instead of repeatedly trying to capitalize on the next good future GM.  
 

Im sure they had league darling GMs with experience as an actual NHL GM that were recommended as well.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

Much of that is mitigated if they would have hired an experienced GM instead of repeatedly trying to capitalize on the next good future GM.  
 

Im sure they had league darling GMs with experience as an actual NHL GM that were recommended as well.

Well, TP did retain Darcy, who was a respected and experienced GM at the time, as his initial GM.  

[Eleven]

5 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Not to keep rehashing things, but maybe they wouldn’t have had to rely on “league help”, if they had just gone out and hired an experienced and successful hockey exec to run the entire show to begin with.  The last decade+ is a black eye on the franchise that will sting for some time.  I will stop looking at him as a bumbling meddling fool when his team proves it to me. 

But he listened to you all when Ruff was fired?  Which is it?  Either he pulled the strings and did what you wanted, which was a complete failure, or he doesn’t pull the strings.

[SwampD]

3 hours ago, Eleven said:

But he listened to you all when Ruff was fired?  Which is it?  Either he pulled the strings and did what you wanted, which was a complete failure, or he doesn’t pull the strings.

This has to stop. It would have been a failure with or without Ruff.

Also, Lindy’s results, post Sabres, weren’t much different than when he was here. In fact, they were the very results that convinced people that we needed to go scorched earth and do a GD stupid ***** Tank.

I say it was a mercy done to him by letting hime go.

[Eleven]

38 minutes ago, SwampD said:

This has to stop. It would have been a failure with or without Ruff.

Also, Lindy’s results, post Sabres, weren’t much different than when he was here. In fact, they were the very results that convinced people that we needed to go scorched earth and do a GD stupid ***** Tank.

I say it was a mercy done to him by letting hime go.

1.  It won't stop, but let's not pretend that I bring it up daily, weekly, monthly, or even yearly.

2.  Please don't distract from the point.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Eleven

[That Aud Smell]

Stumbled on this clip of Pep Guardiola coaching up his Manchester City team. Quick context: Man City is arguably the greatest soccer team in the world, and Pep is arguably the greatest (soccer) coach in the world.

Starting at around :40, Pep implores his uber-elite world class athletes: “I hate it when you don’t want the ball. … You have permission to make mistakes. You have permission to lose. …”

Sounds familiar.

 

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/sabres/thompson-isnt-satisfied-with-good-2021-22-season-wants-more

This article is about Thompson, but the early paragraphs about Granato makes it even more clear that we somehow found the right man to coach this team. 

Quote

 

The Sabres head coach does a lot of thinking in these summer months and a lot of it is out of the box. Granato analyzed what Thompson brings to the ice, and decided his talent fit those of a center. Granato didn’t care that he hadn't played center regularly since before his college days at UConn.

The reason Granato thought it was a good idea is teams were using the boards to kill plays that Thompson was trying to make. Opponents would attack him from his open side, knowing the boards would shut him off on the other side.

Granato wanted Thompson cutting to the middle, which opened up all the options for the big man with long reach, good speed and huge talent. Things worked so well, Thompson should’ve been the Sabres' All-Star representative instead of Rasmus Dahlin.

 

Still not 100% on the KA train, but DG, I'm all in.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/sabres/thompson-isnt-satisfied-with-good-2021-22-season-wants-more

This article is about Thompson, but the early paragraphs about Granato makes it even more clear that we somehow found the right man to coach this team. 

Still not 100% on the KA train, but DG, I'm all in.

DG and KA are riding on the same train. If DG succeeds, KA succeeds. If KA succeeds, DG succeeds. They are inextricably linked. The owner has a history of impatience and changing staffs. I believe that he has learned his lesson that constantly turning over of staffs isn't a solution. When your franchise is unstable creating more instability isn't the answer. This staff is going to be in place for the next few years. 

[Thorner]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

DG and KA are riding on the same train. If DG succeeds, KA succeeds. If KA succeeds, DG succeeds. They are inextricably linked. The owner has a history of impatience and changing staffs. I believe that he has learned his lesson that constantly turning over of staffs isn't a solution. When your franchise is unstable creating more instability isn't the answer. This staff is going to be in place for the next few years. 

Coaches still hired to be fired. KA will outlive Granato, I’d wager

Saying this as a Granato fan. The time will come when the coaches’ firing will be part of the team moving to the “next level”. If the plan progresses properly.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Thorny

[PerreaultForever]

On 7/31/2022 at 11:32 AM, grinreaper said:

Out of curiosity, if the Sabres start to excel and keep it up how will you view Pegula then? 

As a rich hockey fan who doesn't have a clue about hockey. Same as before. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Coaches still hired to be fired. KA will outlive Granato, I’d wager

Saying this as a Granato fan. The time will come when the coaches’ firing will be part of the team moving to the “next level”. If the plan progresses properly.

I agree with you that the coaching position is not usually noted for its longevity. But it just seems to me that the coach and GM are tightly synced with respect to roster building philosophy.

You bring up a key question with respect to Granato. It's widely acknowledged that he is adept in developing players and guiding a young roster. In a year or two the next issue is going to be whether that ability to develop talent will result in leading a more mature team to being serious cup contending team. I think he is capable of making that next step up. But it is still an open question.  

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I agree with you that the coaching position is not usually noted for its longevity. But it just seems to me that the coach and GM are tightly synced with respect to roster building philosophy.

You bring up a key question with respect to Granato. It's widely acknowledged that he is adept in developing players and guiding a young roster. In a year or two the next issue is going to be whether that ability to develop talent will result in leading a more mature team to being serious cup contending team. I think he is capable of making that next step up. But it is still an open question.  

You honestly think we are "serious cup contenders" in 2 years????

Well that would truly be something. I think it'll take a lot longer than that. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

You honestly think we are "serious cup contenders" in 2 years????

Well that would truly be something. I think it'll take a lot longer than that. 

It’s impossible to predict, but 3 years from now the group of Peterka, Power, Quinn, Samuelsson, Cozens, Krebs, Dahlin, Jokiharju, Asplund, Mitts, Thompson, Tuch, UPL will be entering or in their primes.

We should know by then how good that group will be. Is it the core of a contender?

And that can help dictate how Savoie, Östlund, Kulich, Levi, Portillo, Johnson, Poltapov, Kisakov, Neuchev, Leinonen, Bloom, Nadeau, Rosen and next year’s high picks can best be leveraged to push us over the top.

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by dudacek

[PerreaultForever]

22 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It’s impossible to predict, but 3 years from now the group of Peterka, Power, Quinn, Samuelsson, Cozens, Krebs, Dahlin, Jokiharju, Asplund, Mitts, Thompson, Tuch, UPL will be entering or in their primes.

We should know by then how good that group will be. Is it the core of a contender?

And that can help dictate how Savoie, Östlund, Kulich, Levi, Portillo, Johnson, Poltapov, Kisakov, Neuchev, Leinonen, Bloom, Nadeau, Rosen and next year’s high picks can best be leveraged to push us over the top.

 

So you've got guys with different ages all entering their prime at the same time? It can happen, but it's unlikely. 

and by leveraged do you mean traded? 

imo if you don't add key veteran pieces it takes a really long time and if that time frame is too long you end up in cap trouble with too many primes at the same time or else they leave. 

A healthy build requires winning, then people want to be here and/or want to stay. I doubt there will be a magical coming together. More likely some hits and some misses and thus the need to add those veterans. 

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

You honestly think we are "serious cup contenders" in 2 years????

Well that would truly be something. I think it'll take a lot longer than that. 

I don't think it is unrealistic for this team to be a serious cup contender two years after this upcoming season. The roster is being filled out with mostly young players who have upside. The issue comes down to what level of goaltending will we have at that time? That's the key issue that will determine success. I don't expect Vezina caliber of goaltending. That would be unrealistic. What I'm hoping for is consistently good play. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by JohnC

[dudacek]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

So you've got guys with different ages all entering their prime at the same time? It can happen, but it's unlikely. 

and by leveraged do you mean traded? 

imo if you don't add key veteran pieces it takes a really long time and if that time frame is too long you end up in cap trouble with too many primes at the same time or else they leave. 

A healthy build requires winning, then people want to be here and/or want to stay. I doubt there will be a magical coming together. More likely some hits and some misses and thus the need to add those veterans. 

Entering or in their primes is what I said.

What I was getting at is that we don’t know how good any of those guys listed will be. We have a pretty good idea with Tuch, Dahlin, Thompson and Jokiharju, but we still need confirmation. We have no idea with the rest.

Three years from now, we should pretty much know the hits and misses, as well as the roster’s holes and it’s redundancies.

We seem to differ on whether the team and players can get better without making moves. I think with that much young talent, it’s likely.

But I’m in full agreement with you that trades and additions will be needed to finish the puzzle and push us into the ranks of legitimate contender.

Edited August 7, 2022 by dudacek

[dudacek]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

So you've got guys with different ages all entering their prime at the same time? It can happen, but it's unlikely. 

and by leveraged do you mean traded? 

imo if you don't add key veteran pieces it takes a really long time and if that time frame is too long you end up in cap trouble with too many primes at the same time or else they leave. 

A healthy build requires winning, then people want to be here and/or want to stay. I doubt there will be a magical coming together. More likely some hits and some misses and thus the need to add those veterans. 

The bold is interesting, because I think it is a key element of Adams’ plan.

Mattias Samuelsson was born March 14, 2000. Owen Power was born Nov. 22, 2002.

Jack Quinn, JJ Peterka, Dylan Cozens, Ryan Johnson, Eric Portillo, Peyton Krebs, Devon Levi, and Rasmus Dahlin are all born in between them.

Stretch the window a back a year and you add Mittelstadt, Jokiharju and UPL. Stretch it forward and you get Rosen, Poltapov, Kisakov, Savoie, Östlund and Kulich, among others.

The Boston contender was built around Bergeron, Lucic, Krecji, Rask, Horton and Marchand, all who were born within a 3-year window and all of whom came of age together in Boston.

The Blackhawks added Kane and Toews to Seabrook, Keith, Crawford, Byfuglien, versteeg, Ladd, Bolland, Brouwer, and Hjalmarsson in similar fashion.

And, of course, there is the all-time extreme example of Messier, Gretzky, Anderson, Kurri, Coffey, Lowe, Fuhr and Moog.

Adams certainly hasn’t assembled that Oilers’ caliber of talent, but the Bruins and Hawks teams aren’t out of reach.

The template he’s following of assembling a bunch of young talent and letting them grow together is a hardly a new one, and it’s one that has proven to work.

Edited August 7, 2022 by dudacek

[Zamboni]

The teams who make the playoffs every year are technically cup contenders. So yea, I can see the Sabres getting into the playoffs in two years.

[Doohicksie]

Are Don Granato and Kevyn Adams experts?  Is anyone in hockey?

I watched this video and started thinking about hockey.  In the act of hockey itself, there are a lot of situations that meet the definition of expertise.  A player can practice to increase their probability of clearing the puck, scoring the goal, blocking the shot.  Well organized practices, at the edge of a player's ability, are essential in developing expertise.

But for coaching, for team building, becoming an expert is more difficult:  Environments are not consistent; feedback can be delayed by years after a decision is made.  I think this is where fancy stats come in.... sure you can use the so-called "expertise" of your scouts, but as in the video below, you're more likely to succeed with a simplified formula.

Thoughts?

 

[Doohicksie]

One thought I had after posting was Lindy Ruff (and other coaches viewed as dinosaurs) and how his discernment seems to have decreased over the years.  I wonder if putting him in a position of learning (like in the video, when experienced doctors are retrained on complex diagnoses) would restore his discernment and intuition and make him a better coach again?  Or has the game quite literally passed him by?

[Eleven]

56 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

In the act of hockey itself

Look at Aristotle over here…

53 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Or has the game quite literally passed him by?

He’s done.  So is most of that generation of coaches. Time to pass the torches.  

Edited August 7, 2022 by Eleven

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

I don't think it is unrealistic for this team to be a serious cup contender two years after this upcoming season. The roster is being filled out with mostly young players who have upside. The issue comes down to what level of goaltending will we have at that time? That's the key issue that will determine success. I don't expect Vezina caliber of goaltending. That would be unrealistic. What I'm hoping for is consistently good play. 

I think we might have a difference in what we consider serious contender to mean. So first, by 2 years after this year you mean in 3 years, not 2. That takes us a bit closer (potentially) but still not sure serious would apply. 

If by "serious contender" you mean making the playoffs, sure, it's possible. I certainly hope so. But serious contender to me is only a half a dozen teams at best. There's a few long shots that could pull an upset, but really only a few teams have a serious shot and we are unlikely to be in that group any time soon. 

If everything, and I mean everything, goes well, and we finally get a good goalie, we MIGHT be a serious contender in 5 to 6 years. That's when maybe Levi is a blossoming star goalie, Power has become dominant along with Dahlin still in his prime. Cozens, Quinn, etc. several players have to have matured into front line performers and we'd maybe have the required depth and skill for a serious cup run. But a LOT of things have to go right for that possibility. 

2 years from now we might be where L.A. is now, 3 years from now we MIGHT be approaching where Carolina was last season, 5 years from now with luck and good decisions we could be competing with Tampa or their equivalent. 

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Entering or in their primes is what I said.

What I was getting at is that we don’t know how good any of those guys listed will be. We have a pretty good idea with Tuch, Dahlin, Thompson and Jokiharju, but we still need confirmation. We have no idea with the rest.

Three years from now, we should pretty much know the hits and misses, as well as the roster’s holes and it’s redundancies.

We seem to differ on whether the team and players can get better without making moves. I think with that much young talent, it’s likely.

But I’m in full agreement with you that trades and additions will be needed to finish the puzzle and push us into the ranks of legitimate contender.

I'm not really disagreeing with you and it's absolutely true, we don't know what many of those players will become. 

I guess really my fear is this team has gone too far in the opposite direction from the earlier failed tries. While I agree with building through the draft, KA is like the anti-Murray in that he doesn't bring in anybody of note and is all in on the draft picks (while as we know Murray squandered them all for guys he thought could make us win right away). This is the plan that takes a LONG time.

I'm looking at the Rangers, Carolina, L.A. to some extent. Adding a few key veterans to plug holes now and balance the roster and thus be good faster, while still building long term with the draft. I think it's a better approach. 

 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

The bold is interesting, because I think it is a key element of Adams’ plan.

Mattias Samuelsson was born March 14, 2000. Owen Power was born Nov. 22, 2002.

Jack Quinn, JJ Peterka, Dylan Cozens, Ryan Johnson, Eric Portillo, Peyton Krebs, Devon Levi, and Rasmus Dahlin are all born in between them.

Stretch the window a back a year and you add Mittelstadt, Jokiharju and UPL. Stretch it forward and you get Rosen, Poltapov, Kisakov, Savoie, Östlund and Kulich, among others.

The Boston contender was built around Bergeron, Lucic, Krecji, Rask, Horton and Marchand, all who were born within a 3-year window and all of whom came of age together in Boston.

The Blackhawks added Kane and Toews to Seabrook, Keith, Crawford, Byfuglien, versteeg, Ladd, Bolland, Brouwer, and Hjalmarsson in similar fashion.

And, of course, there is the all-time extreme example of Messier, Gretzky, Anderson, Kurri, Coffey, Lowe, Fuhr and Moog.

Adams certainly hasn’t assembled that Oilers’ caliber of talent, but the Bruins and Hawks teams aren’t out of reach.

The template he’s following of assembling a bunch of young talent and letting them grow together is a hardly a new one, and it’s one that has proven to work.

Oh that's definitely the plan, and it is possible, but as always, it depends on how well they drafted. How many of these guys develop, how fast and how good? 

I guess I'm more concerned with winning sooner and creating a winning environment. A culture where losing is considered unacceptable or failure. I'm worried if we go too slow and wait too long we create another wave of players that get used to losing and thinking next year or next team. Unlike KA, I felt we had enough young talent now that if we just added a few pieces we could compete now (like L.A. did). KA, I think, has a longer time plan and is quite happy to get a shot at Bedard etc.