Adams/Granato: In for the long haul

[Doohicksie]

That's the way coups work.  They will control the team until they themselves are toppled.

As long as it's a benevolent dictatorship there is little chance that they will be overthrown.

[GoPuckYourself]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't agree at all that this is how they play. They have a system, and in some ways it mirrors the Avalanche. Attack with speed in transition, control entries, on zone exits you have an up the wall option and middle of the zone option and typically a behind the net option. Once the breakout begins it is full blast up ice to score on rushes.

Agree to disagree then.

[Thwomp!]

Can we have a winning season or God forbid, maybe make the playoffs first before we stick ourselves with these guys for decades?  Both of them have plenty left to prove.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

We won't so, idc.

Oddsmakers set lines based on betting behavior. Betters in general don't follow the Sabres so it is easy for them to remember that Buffalo has missed the playoffs for 11 years and had an 18 game losing streak 2 years ago. Further, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you (even though you quite literally have ignored the posts and continue to just yap about how good Detroit and Ottawa are now) the Sabres made additions to the roster in season that a lot of the betters will miss. Vegas' job is to make money so they have to set those lines at places where the betting comes in so they make money. That comes from history and history for the last decade says the Sabres suck so of course that's where they get put.

Odds makers are often wrong so idk why you keep bringing this up like I should care. I once bet on the Sabres to beat the Leafs at +450. It was a great day.

People who bet seriously are only interested in money so they have more objectivity than fans who over value their team and it's possibilities. 

[Cascade Youth]

Scientists are still studying the side effects of long-haul mediocrity.

[JohnC]

19 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

On another board they are hearing that Adams might move up to President with Kim’s medical situation and Ventura and Karmanos taking over the GM role. Saying it is being discussed. Who knows but it would make sense.

The hockey operation with KA at the helm is currently running well. Why would you tamper with it by making a major personnel move within the hockey operation side of the organization? It's likely that Kim will require a lengthy recovery because of her health situation. But her role before getting sick dealt with the business and facilities side of the business. If she needs to step back from her responsibilities the person replacing her should come from the same side of the business. 

[Andrew Amerk]

6 hours ago, Cascade Youth said:

Scientists are still studying the side effects of long-haul mediocrity.

Bills fans seem to have recovered fairly well after 18 seasons of no playoffs. 

[JohnC]

On 7/16/2022 at 11:22 PM, PerreaultForever said:

But here's my question to all of you. If we fall back and end up in 7th place in the division as the oddsmakers are predicting, does he then become yet another in the list of young inexperienced failed GMs hired by Pegula, does Granato get dumped like the inexperienced (at an NHL head coach level) coaches that preceded him or do you still give them a Lindy Ruff type long haul?

You get irritated with the notion of a big picture but that is the reality in this case since the installation of KA. It's not unrealistic to believe that the Sabres do end up in 7th place in the division. That would be disappointing but not necessarily indicating that the team isn't moving in the right direction. Anyone who believed that KA had a quick fix solution to remaking this roster and making this a serious Cup contending team was not being realistic. The GM would be the first person to tell you that it was going to be a challenging process. Upon his installation he gave an overview of how he was going to rebuild this franchise. He publicly acknowledged that it was going to take time. That's a harsh reality that many people refuse to accept because they are attaching the previous decade of failure onto his tenure. 

There are plenty of meaningful questions that should be asked of KA. Is the staffing and structure of the hockey operation demonstrably better? Yes. Is the drafting better? Yes. Is the roster filled with more talented young players who have upside? Yes. Was the right coach hired? Yes. 

I understand your impatience, everyone does. But if you want instant gratification you are not going to get it because that's not how things work in the NHL. Pointing out what has previously been done wrong is not much of a challenge. Recognizing what has been done right in a relatively short period of time may give you a more objective and optimistic picture of where this franchise currently resides. 

[WhenWillItEnd66]

So far, i have zero problem with keeping these two together. They both seem to be on the same page and have something that the last couple of pairings did not have...... a plan to actually make the Sabres better from bottom to top. So far it seems to be working out well for us. Time will tell though, but zero problem with the improved product that we have all seen

[GASabresIUFAN]

Many might not agree with this thought, but this is the last year KA and DG operate without any pressure on them to make the playoffs.  TP will see this as a productive season if the team gets to the mid 80’s in points.  However, once big $ deals are going to some of these kids, there will follow an expectation for those players to lead us to the playoffs.
 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, JohnC said:

You get irritated with the notion of a big picture but that is the reality in this case since the installation of KA. It's not unrealistic to believe that the Sabres do end up in 7th place in the division. That would be disappointing but not necessarily indicating that the team isn't moving in the right direction. Anyone who believed that KA had a quick fix solution to remaking this roster and making this a serious Cup contending team was not being realistic. The GM would be the first person to tell you that it was going to be a challenging process. Upon his installation he gave an overview of how he was going to rebuild this franchise. He publicly acknowledged that it was going to take time. That's a harsh reality that many people refuse to accept because they are attaching the previous decade of failure onto his tenure. 

There are plenty of meaningful questions that should be asked of KA. Is the staffing and structure of the hockey operation demonstrably better? Yes. Is the drafting better? Yes. Is the roster filled with more talented young players who have upside? Yes. Was the right coach hired? Yes. 

I understand your impatience, everyone does. But if you want instant gratification you are not going to get it because that's not how things work in the NHL. Pointing out what has previously been done wrong is not much of a challenge. Recognizing what has been done right in a relatively short period of time may give you a more objective and optimistic picture of where this franchise currently resides. 

You might think I get "irritated" with those ideas but what I find even more annoying is Sabres apologists who make me think they might even be organizational plants. or maybe you are new to the team as a fan? Any fan who has been here for decades is simply tired of waiting for "next year" or at least they should be. There is something to be said for an overall draft and build slowly philosophy, but that doesn't mean it has to be the only thing you do and moments can be seized and you can plug holes and balance your cap spending (veteran contracts that expire when young player contracts potentially need to be given out). You can move forward faster.

You should keep in mind, if you have been around here for a few years that I was one of the first people here to say trade the big 3, tear it down and start over. I received scorn, derision and ridicule for saying the very things KA is being applauded for having done, I was just a man ahead of my time. I feel good now knowing I was right, even if I got the negativity and not the praise. KA can have the praise, I just want a winning team.

To your point about drafting, we simply don't know that yet. It MIGHT be better, but we won't know until a few years from now. If Tage is our leading scorer, Cozens is our team captain and UPL is our starting goalie suddenly JBot doesn't look like a moron after all does he? KA's drafting can't be assessed yet. get back to me in 2 years for a real evaluation. 

I simply feel opportunities to move incrementally forward are being passed up. We can use the cap space. We could have signed key pieces. Brought in a proven goalie. Things could and still can be done so that we do not have to wait as long. I'm just fed up with wait for "next year"

[Thorner]

On 7/18/2022 at 12:29 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Many might not agree with this thought, but this is the last year KA and DG operate without any pressure on them to make the playoffs.  TP will see this as a productive season of the get to the mid 80’s in points.  However, once big $ deals are going to some of these kids, there will follow an expectation for those players to lead us to the playoffs.
 

 

They should. 

I am officially ON the KA bandwagon, but saying playoffs aren’t the goal until THREE seasons from now is ridiculous. Why would we be ok saying playoffs aren’t the goal for not only the coming season, but the one after that, as well? 

Adams will have been the GM for a third of the all-time historic playoff drought, if that’s the case

[JohnC]

46 minutes ago, Thorny said:

They should. 

I am officially ON the KA bandwagon, but saying playoffs aren’t the goal until THREE seasons from now is ridiculous. Why would we be ok saying playoffs aren’t the goal for not only the coming season, but the one after that, as well? 

Adams will have been the GM for a third of the all-time historic playoff drought, if that’s the case

I wholeheartedly agree with. Now is the time to have higher expectations for this team. It's not unreasonable to believe that this team should be in the playoff hunt up to the end of the season. Will they make the playoffs next year? I don't know. But if they are not playing meaningful games at the end of the season, I will be deeply disappointed. In my view if this team would have had Ullmark caliber of goaltending last year, this team  would have been 10 pts better than the 74 pts they finished with last year. So if 84 points was the baseline entering this season then 90 pts should be an attainable goal this season. That doesn't put us in the playoffs but it does put us in the range with teams vying for a playoff spot. 

[Thorner]

10 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I wholeheartedly agree with. Now is the time to have higher expectations for this team. It's not unreasonable to believe that this team should be in the playoff hunt up to the end of the season. Will they make the playoffs next year? I don't know. But if they are not playing meaningful games at the end of the season, I will be deeply disappointed. In my view if this team would have had Ullmark caliber of goaltending last year, this team  would have been 10 pts better than the 74 pts they finished with last year. So if 84 points was the baseline entering this season then 90 pts should be an attainable goal this season. That doesn't put us in the playoffs but it does put us in the range with teams vying for a playoff spot. 

And it’s not like I’m saying “heads should roll” if we miss the next two seasons. Merely that we definitely don’t need to set aside 2 more “evaluation” years. One more, I get, I guess, but the *goal*, the benchmark of success needs to be playoffs in 2024, if it’s not 2023. 

The time will have come to set the bar at “top half” of the league 

It’s not that high a bar 

[Thorner]

If we haven’t made it by 2024, Dahlin will have matched Eichel’s Sabres playoff drought mark of 6 seasons w/o

Edited July 20, 2022 by Thorny

[SabresVet]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

If we haven’t made it by 2024, Dahlin will have matched Eichel’s Sabres playoff drought mark of 6 seasons w/o

And he'll be out the door because the team has not successfully rebuilt.  

The Pegs' insistence on having "their" man at GM (after trusting Botterill, Murray, and Regier) is indicative of major trust issues borne of their own bad decisions.  

And when ownership is paranoid and refuses to hire people from outside the organization because they have trust issues it's not always a net win.

Hopefully the talent being assembled will get them into the playoffs soon.  Still, as someone said upthread, Adams and Granato still have a lot to prove.  But if they're not in the playoffs within 2 seasons I'd hope ownership would not stay the course because they can't trust someone else.  

 

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, SabresVet said:

And he'll be out the door because the team has not successfully rebuilt.  

The Pegs' insistence on having "their" man at GM (after trusting Botterill, Murray, and Regier) is indicative of major trust issues borne of their own bad decisions.  

And when ownership is paranoid and refuses to hire people from outside the organization because they have trust issues it's not always a net win.

Hopefully the talent being assembled will get them into the playoffs soon.  Still, as someone said upthread, Adams and Granato still have a lot to prove.  But if they're not in the playoffs within 2 seasons I'd hope ownership would not stay the course because they can't trust someone else.  

 

For me it’s the difference between saying what the goal should be rather than it being some sort of ultimatum on success. If we go to 89 points next year, then the following year hit 94 and miss, I think I’d be annoyed (and tired of missing, 13 straight) but pretty happy with progression overall (but so, so tired).

[Brawndo]

56 minutes ago, Thorny said:

For me it’s the difference between saying what the goal should be rather than it being some sort of ultimatum on success. If we go to 89 points next year, then the following year hit 94 and miss, I think I’d be annoyed (and tired of missing, 13 straight) but pretty happy with progression overall (but so, so tired).

This is the last year that not being in genuine contention for the playoffs should be tolerated, IMO. 
Some of the posters already feel We are way past that, which is their prerogative. 

By the 2023-24 Season, Adams will have had Four Drafts and a two legimate seasons to evaluate His Roster. I know He has been GM for three but it’s plainly evident that Krueger had this roster so FUBAR that any kind of evaluation is difficult at best. 
 

Feel free to disagree with that statement. 
 

By that point in time He should know who is the core of this team moving forward and who should remain from Botterill’s Acquisitions. Mitts, Bryson, Tage, Cozens, Samuelsson and Dahlin. And whether Olofsson and Asplund remain, although the latter has cemented a roster spot for the foreseeable future based on defensive play, IMO. 
 

The 2023-24 Team will have three of has drafted players with NHL Experience, namely Quinn, Peterka and Power with Savoie ready to start His NHL Career. The Amerks that season should have Levi, Rosen, Kisakov, Bloom, Nadeau, Kozak and Kulich on the team, along with Johnson hopefully. 

Adams should have a good idea about His Salary Cap moving forward and be able to target bigger UFAs on a as needed basis. 
Finally the prospect pool, future assets and the team should be in a place where targeting a player such as Tkachuk would not only help the team by adding the player, but not deplete the asset and prospect pool too deeply by making the acquisition.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Brawndo

[GASabresIUFAN]

https://theathletic.com/3452185/2022/07/29/one-of-the-sabres-best-teams-ever-has-become-a-feeder-to-nhl-front-offices/
 

I didn’t know where else to put this, but it’s a great article about the culture the Sabres built in 05/06 and how strong the leadership group on the team was.  They also talk about how how the team’s hockey IQ was and how many of those players have moved or are moving into the coaching and management ranks.  I’ve said before how much this current team reminds me of that squad.  

The key for KA/DG is to do what DR failed to do and that is lockup the right players to maintain the group once they start winning. The article talks about losing veteran leaders like Dumont, Grier and McKee after 2005/06 and not re-upping Briere and Drury during the following season.  

On a semi-sad note, the article discusses how many of these leaders are involved in other organizations like Grier in SJ, Drury in NY, Campbell in Chi, and Briere in Philly, but only Mair is with the Sabres as the Director of player development.  That’s a little disappointing.  Hopefully if Vanek, Pommers, or Miller want to join an NHL organization, KA will find an opening for them.

It is a little ironic that KA, Buffalo native, was on the Carolina team that Won the Cup after beating the 05/06 Sabres because of the rash of Sabres injuries. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[French Collection]

39 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

https://theathletic.com/3452185/2022/07/29/one-of-the-sabres-best-teams-ever-has-become-a-feeder-to-nhl-front-offices/
 

I didn’t know where else to put this, but it’s a great article about the culture the Sabres built in 05/06 and how strong the leadership group on the team was.  They also talk about how how the team’s hockey IQ was and how many of those players have moved or are moving into the coaching and management ranks.  I’ve said before how much this current team reminds me of that squad.  

The key for KA/DG is to do what DR failed to do and that is lockup the right players to maintain the group once they start winning. The article talks about losing veteran leaders like Dumont, Grier and McKee after 2005/06 and not re-upping Briere and Drury during the following season.  

On a semi-sad note, the article discusses how many of these leaders are involved in other organizations like Grier in SJ, Drury in NY, Campbell in Chi, and Briere in Philly, but only Mair is with the Sabres as the Director of player development.  That’s a little disappointing.  Hopefully if Vanek, Pommers, or Miller want to join an NHL organization, KA will find an opening for them.

It is a little ironic that KA, Buffalo native, was on the Carolina team that Won the Cup after beating the 05/06 Sabres because of the rash of Sabres injuries. 

I am sure KA remembers how good that team was and he would know many of those players.

He knows the importance of leadership, character and chemistry and he is careful in assembling this team with skill and those other traits I listed.

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 hours ago, French Collection said:

I am sure KA remembers how good that team was and he would know many of those players.

He knows the importance of leadership, character and chemistry and he is careful in assembling this team with skill and those other traits I listed.

Except getting goaltending.

[Flashsabre]

https://thehockeywriters.com/sabres-granato-facing-curse-of-pegulas/

What a terrible article.

-Pegula loves to fire people

-Krueger tried his best to turn the organization around😳

[Doohicksie]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:07 PM, SabresVet said:

The Pegs' insistence on having "their" man at GM (after trusting Botterill, Murray, and Regier) is indicative of major trust issues borne of their own bad decisions.  

And when ownership is paranoid and refuses to hire people from outside the organization because they have trust issues it's not always a net win.

I think in the Pegulas' case, it's not paranoia.  They went with leadership choices that were league darlings.  They failed.  Wanting to pick their own GM under those circumstances isn't paranoia, it's the voice of experience.

[Doohicksie]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:44 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

the article discusses how many of these leaders are involved in other organizations like Grier in SJ, Drury in NY, Campbell in Chi, and Briere in Philly, but only Mair is with the Sabres as the Director of player development.  That’s a little disappointing.  Hopefully if Vanek, Pommers, or Miller want to join an NHL organization, KA will find an opening for them.

I don't care if a Sabres staffer is a previous Sabre or not.  I want the right person for the job out of those available.   A preference toward ex-Sabres is sentimental hogwash.

[LabattBlue]

22 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I think in the Pegulas' case, it's not paranoia.  They went with leadership choices that were league darlings.  They failed.  Wanting to pick their own GM under those circumstances isn't paranoia, it's the voice of experience.

Not to keep rehashing things, but maybe they wouldn’t have had to rely on “league help”, if they had just gone out and hired an experienced and successful hockey exec to run the entire show to begin with.  The last decade+ is a black eye on the franchise that will sting for some time.  I will stop looking at him as a bumbling meddling fool when his team proves it to me.